15inch PowerBook Details and Supplies

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by soggywulf
Yes, absolutely, Apple should be going after MS and MS customers! Who else should they be competing against? Linux? I think not. And who else can compete against MS, if not Apple? Apple is a big company with plenty of cash. Let's see them play to win!

You must be the only one still holding onto the delusion that Apple can get a larger market share than MS.

Originally posted by soggywulf
And what else should Apple's focus be, if not competing against MS? Removing floppies? Adding FW800? Expose? Please.

So all of a sudden, making technical innovations for a premium market is a bad business plan? Someone tell Mercedes-Benz!

Originally posted by soggywulf
MS has made strong inroads even in their core markets (like content creation). It's time for Apple to get their act together. This argument you are putting forward about "being everything to everyone killing them" is simply not logical. I'm not asking them to recreate SAP and all the other "specific" applications. They are not in the business of being anything to anyone in particular (besides FCP). They are in the business of making a platform for everything else to run on.

Remember 1996? Remember the Power Mac 4400, the Power Mac 7200, the Power Mac 9600, the Power Mac 8600, the Power Mac 6500, the Power Mac 5500, the PowerBook 1400, 2400, and 3400? That was Apple trying to be all things to all people. It led to a loss of focus and to spewing out all sorts of models, one for the business market, one for the content creation market, one for the home market, one for the educational market...

Apple has a comfortable and profitable niche. If they're going to go after more market share, fine, but they're going to have to do it by capturing more markets one at a time. Enterprise, for instance, which they're targeting with the Xserve. They can't just madly push out in all directions. They need focus.

Apple made a move to recapture some of the home market with the iMac, and to hold the education market with the eMac.

As our fearless leader said in 1997, "For Apple to win, Microsoft doesn't have to lose. For Apple to win, Apple has to do a really good job."

 

[ozlow]

Originally posted by cybermat
This whole waiting game is killing me.... I am a long time Windows PC user and I am quite happy with it. Recently, I was shopping for a laptop and I had my first look at a powerbook and OSX. I really like what I saw. But being a PC user for such a long time, I was skeptical about the switch. I have to go through a new learning curve. Software wise, I would have to buy new softwares. Anyway, it was very hard for me to convince myself since tests have shown that even the top 1gig G4 powerbook is slower than the top of the line Penitum-M notebook and they cost roughly the same. Not to mention I was only looking at the 12" at the time. However, Apple did sweeten things up by offering the bundle package which included an ipod and a printer with mail-in rebates. I almost finalized my order when I did a search on virtual PC and found out that the software recommends L3 cache to run at acceptable speed. For sure I will need to run virtual PC since I do PLC programming and the PLC program is only available on Windows platfrom. Then I started looking at the 15" Ti model, but this model hasn't been updated for a while and there is a number of known problems with this model such as the keyboard marks, poor wi-fi reception and it costs even more. This is a tougher choice since I can't seem to justify spending over $3000 CAD for an outdated model with problems while I can spend the same or even less for a top of the line Pentium-M notebook. A friend of mine told me that the 15" is due for a revision and a new model will come out anytime soon and he pointed me to this website. Since then, I've been following the rumours religiously and hoping for a new 15" to come out, but the matter is I can't wait any longer, school is starting.

Is the 12" with 640 MB of ram sufficient for virtual PC? Is so, I will just go and buy the 12" and RIP.

Sorry for the long story, I need to let the steam out.


Sincerely,
An ordinary PC user with the everyday PC->MAC struggle

There's now a Apple 12" PowerBook 1GB memory module available

August 29 - 07:09 EDT__ Trans Intl. today announced the availability of a 1GB DDR266 (Double Data Rate) memory module for Apple's 12-inch PowerBook G4 (867MHz model). Pricing for the new module is US$499.

But, I would wait for a few more weeks. You might see a level 3 cashe in the new 12". I heard Apple will be an exhibitor at OracleWorld, which takes place September 7-11, 2003 at San Francisco's Moscone Center. Maybe, they might release something??? If not there, for sure at Apple Expo Paris September 16

 

[soggywulf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
You must be the only one still holding onto the delusion that Apple can get a larger market share than MS.

I hope Apple doesn't share your defeatist attitude. More marketshare would be better. Maybe they can't make it larger than 50%, but Apple should at least try to get as high as they can.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
So all of a sudden, making technical innovations for a premium market is a bad business plan? Someone tell Mercedes-Benz!

Low marketshare doesn't make MB a poor car. Low marketshare does make Apple a worse computer, for the reasons I have stated above.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Remember 1996? Remember the Power Mac 4400, the Power Mac 7200, the Power Mac 9600, the Power Mac 8600, the Power Mac 6500, the Power Mac 5500, the PowerBook 1400, 2400, and 3400? That was Apple trying to be all things to all people.

No, it wasn't. That was Apple being dumb. Having good price/performance does not equal having 500 products. And being universally appealing does not equal 500 products, either. A single product priced well will suffice. Good price/performance appeals to everyone, home and enterprise and edu. Your 500 products example is orthogonal to the issue.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
They can't just madly push out in all directions. They need focus.

Lowering prices on their products is not "madly pushing in all directions".

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
As our fearless leader said in 1997, "For Apple to win, Microsoft doesn't have to lose. For Apple to win, Apple has to do a really good job."

I call that an excuse.

If it weren't for the wicked temptation of short term profits from a loyal user base, Apple would like nothing better than to have 50% marketshare or more--like any other company. I think your characterization of Jobs & Co as a bunch of hippie pot-smokers seeking Nirvana is a little off-base. Certainly Apple shareholders do not share the view that Apple marketshare should continue to stagnate.

 

[whitehbr]

Here is what is killing me about waiting... the back to school rebate offer. It says I need to have my new PB in hand by the 27th. Somehow, my hopes of that happening are getting bleak.

I don't know how many people here who are waiting are students, and hence are interested in the laptop/iPod bundle, but based on what I have read, I figure an announcement in Paris that will ship after Sep. 27 when the back to school rebate expires. Why else would the rebate specify that you have to take possession of the products by the 27th (better yet, how can they tell when it was received, other than by the ship date?).

 

[asphalt-proof]

Amen.

So I went an ordered a custom built compaq X1000 1.6 Pentinum M notebook. It's ship date is the 26th of september -- and I have 30 days to return it after that. (and it's price is $2400... with a DVD r+/rw drive.)

So, if I want to switch, why did I do this? In case the PB update is as lame as everyone says it is going to be I will still have a great Pentinum M notebook.

And if it is a G5, I can return it.

Keep in mind that there are websites devoted to the keyboard problems of the X1000. I don't know if the company has rectified that problem or not. I hear that the HP NX7000 is the same computer with better support. Something to think about.

I also considered this rig but backed out when I read PC World's ratings of PC companies and their products (quality of service, hardware ect.) Compaq was in a bad way especially in tech support. This is why I am wanting to switch to Apple or IBM (I guess IBM is not technically 'switching'. )😎

 

[sacrilicious]

Re: I gave up

Originally posted by zapp
How many others aren't buying now?

Still waiting. I'll be leavin' this powerhouse desktop and rockin' out on an outdated beige box that will lack 'net connections and the computer labs until the 15" comes. I hope it doesn't take until January. 😱

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by soggywulf
I hope Apple doesn't share your defeatist attitude. More marketshare would be better. Maybe they can't make it larger than 50%, but Apple should at least try to get as high as they can.

I don't have a defeatist attitude. Yes, more market share would be nice. No, it's not the most important thing. Get over it.

Originally posted by soggywulf
Lowering prices on their products is not "madly pushing in all directions".

Lowering prices on their products wouldn't improve market share that much. It would lose money for Apple.

Originally posted by soggywulf
If it weren't for the wicked temptation of short term profits from a loyal user base, Apple would like nothing better than to have 50% marketshare or more--like any other company. I think your characterization of Jobs & Co as a bunch of hippie pot-smokers seeking Nirvana is a little off-base. Certainly Apple shareholders do not share the view that Apple marketshare should continue to stagnate.

Again, you don't know Jobs.

For Jobs, running Apple Computer has always been a way of changing the world. Bringing computing to the masses. Freeing the music industry from the burden of physical media. Steve Jobs is interested least in short term profits. If he wants short term profits, why is he starting things like retail, the music store, and countless other initiatives, some of which we know nothing about? Those things cost more money than they are making, at least immediately, But in the long term, they will change the world, and yes, make more money for Apple.

So Apple is already on a long-term strategy. So why aren't prices lower? Because they realize that they won't gain market share through low prices. They will gain market share through superior technology and integration.

 

[Snowy_River]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by soggywulf
Lowering prices on their products is not "madly pushing in all directions".

Something that I've tried to get across, but failed to so far, it would seem, is that Apple's prices are competitive given the hardware you get. The belief that they ought to be able to drop their prices just because the G4 is underpowered compared to the PM, unfortunately, doesn't hold water. The cost of the processor is a small portion of the cost of the computer. If they wanted to lower the cost of the PowerBooks, then they'd have to use cheaper hardware. The result... iBooks! So, we'd be left with G4 iBooks and no PowerBooks at all!.

 

[sacrilicious]

But Snowy, we have no PowerBook! 🙄

 

[Squire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Something that I've tried to get across, but failed to so far, it would seem, is that Apple's prices are competitive given the hardware you get. The belief that they ought to be able to drop their prices just because the G4 is underpowered compared to the PM, unfortunately, doesn't hold water. The cost of the processor is a small portion of the cost of the computer. If they wanted to lower the cost of the PowerBooks, then they'd have to use cheaper hardware. The result... iBooks! So, we'd be left with G4 iBooks and no PowerBooks at all!.

I'm in 100% agreement here. When I bought my computer (17" iMac), I actually compared prices with a Sony desktop. Add the price of a 17" wide screen LCD, superdrive, 80 GB HD, etc. and you don't come far from the price of the Mac. (I think it came within 200 bucks.)

And that's just the hardware. Factor in iLife, the ease of OSX, and the design of the computer and the Mac was a clear winner in my opinion.

Of course, when it comes to building PCs from scratch, you get a totally different picture. There's no comparison on price. On packaged products, though, I think Macs are as competitive as you could expect.

Squire

 

[murak]

Murak casts firespell on Apple

Yes, this is a good one, folks. Dang Apple/Moto for being so slow etc. But lets not forget the iBook.

I have been waiting for a new one since the drastic pricedrop on the 900 models, but as you all know, my fellow nerds, it has not showed up. Then you read that the new G3 will be this greate little chip with 1 meg L2, new functions and maby even lower power consumtion. Man talk about mind job, I need that new iBook so bad. It´s my first mac and I´m pretty tired of my nothing-but-trouble-wintel. The iBook will suite me just fine.

 

[nyce]

still a student...still waiting

Yep in reply I'm a student too and still waiting.....and waiting....and waiting. It's coming to the point where I go to apple's website every day to check for new updates, but all is in vain. This is frustrating as I'm sure you are all experiencing. I'm on the verge of giving in and buying a PC!....I'm a PC user in the first place and it's just so tempting. Going back to school without a new computer is a pure hassle and nothing else.

Ok, so the mail in rebates are a great offer....who wouldn't want an ipod and a printer with the Pbook? But there's always the WHAT IF of a G5 pbook coming out. And that tiny little chance scratches away at our brains and will until we can't take it anymore. At least we can suffer together (don't I feel like the ultimate nerd).

COME ON Apple, give us a break here. It's already September! Bring them out!

 

[bredlo]

Re: still a student...still waiting

d

Originally posted by nyce
I'm on the verge of giving in and buying a PC!....I'm a PC user in the first place and it's just so tempting. Going back to school without a new computer is a pure hassle and nothing else.

Sorry to use you as the lone example of something I've seen quite a lot of over the past month, but...

Dude, listen! BUY your damn PC and shut the hell up! Why would we care about your PC on a MAC forum?

Does this scenario make sense to anyone else?
A) Apple currently makes laptop computers, albeit they're long in the tooth (product cycle wise.)

B) Joe Blow doesn't want to wait any longer for updates (which haven't been promised anyhow.) Threatens to buy a PC running the WRONG OS.

What the heck is that? How does the logic jump from "Can't wait for that extra 300 Mhz bump" to, "I'll go buy an inferior product." Don't you get the CLOSEST THING to the thing you claim to be waiting for? Uh... that'd be the current PB, Einstein. Not a Dell.

 

[murak]

Q: how do you afford a PB?

Of course it was the PB that was the current subject, but am I the only one that only can afford an iBook? Especialy you students that talks about getting the new 15" PB, how can you afford it? And do all of you need the extra power of the PB or is it the design/functions? Sure, it is one hell of a looker, but basicly it does the same thing that iBook does, a little faster on like PhotoS but still, it costs almost 1000 euro more. Play nice.

Didn´t Apple say 03 was the year of the notebook? Or was it 02?

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: Q: how do you afford a PB?

Originally posted by murak
Of course it was the PB that was the current subject, but am I the only one that only can afford an iBook? Especialy you students that talks about getting the new 15" PB, how can you afford it? And do all of you need the extra power of the PB or is it the design/functions? Sure, it is one hell of a looker, but basicly it does the same thing that iBook does, a little faster on like PhotoS but still, it costs almost 1000 euro more. Play nice.

Heh. PowerBooks are significantly more expensive, but I didn't wait three years to get a 500 MHz boost from the same processor. The PowerBook is simply a superior machine.

Then again, you are from Sweden, and from what I know of Sweden, you aren't able to keep as much of your income as we can in America because of the high taxes. So, not to start a political argument here, but in America we can more easily afford PowerBooks than in Sweden.

 

[sacrilicious]

That, and I'm choosing to afford a $3k laptop. I could get by with a $400 tower, but why would I want to?

Edit: fixed absurd typo .

 

[chancellor]

Re: Q: how do you afford a PB?

Originally posted by murak
Of course it was the PB that was the current subject, but am I the only one that only can afford an iBook? Especialy you students that talks about getting the new 15" PB, how can you afford it? And do all of you need the extra power of the PB or is it the design/functions? Sure, it is one hell of a looker, but basicly it does the same thing that iBook does, a little faster on like PhotoS but still, it costs almost 1000 euro more. Play nice.

High resolution monitor. That's it. If Apple puts out a 1280*854 (or better) monitor in and iBook, I'd buy it instead.

 

[MrSugar]

Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by rjstanford
Just out of curiosity, what the heck are you guys doing to those PCs?

I like Macs, but I currently use intel laptops for performance reasons. My cheapie Dell with XP gets rebooted about once every 2-3 weeks. And I'm a software developer, with 2 database engines, three app servers, all sorts of dev code, etc, running all time time.

Honestly, spreading FUD about PCs just helps to marginalize the Apple contingent, especially when its listened to by people who actually use PCs on a regular basis and know that they're not as bad as they were five years ago. You know, the people who Apple (and many Mac users) are trying to convince to switch.

If you tell someone, "Wow, PCs really suck, they crash and lose data all the time, you need a Mac, they can do X, Y and Z" and the PC user knows that the PC isn't anywhere near as bad as you're trying to convince them it is, then they will naturally assume that you're BSing about the nicer Mac features too.

I look forward to the day when most Mac users can admit, "You know, Windows XP on modern hardware is a pretty nice OS, with some pretty impressive performance at a very competitive price," and can then add, honestly, "But OSX on a new Mac is nicer, faster, and smoother. Its a little more expensive, but TCO is lower because of A, B, and C. Check it out!" If the Apple hardware/software is wonderful, then all the PC bashing is really unnecessary.

-Richard

I completely agree, although I am a new mac user, and am loving it. PC's are not unstable unless the user makes then that way. I have a PC desktop that is extremely stable I run it for weeks at a time and never restart, only time I do is to install software or take it to a LAN Party. Although the mac world is amazing I have to say that yes Microsoft sucks, but it is not as unstable as a lot of people on these forums make it out to be.

 

[whitehbr]

The back and forth game about stability between Macs and PCs is pretty amusing. I don't think any true Mac users have to go very far back to the days of rebooting X times a day. No arguments. And PC users don't have to go back very far to the days of rebotting X times a day. No arguments their either.

The arguments about Windows crashing can get blown out of proportion. However, if your Windows machine, whether it be 95 up to XP lasts more than 6 months before it becomes unstable (I define unstable as having to reboot at all) then you aren't using it. I happen to be very selective of the software I install.

I give Jobs and Co great praise for having the forethought to base their new OS on top of Unix. I also give them credit for ingenuity that is unheard of in the PC world. I have used Apple computers since I was 5 years old and PCs for the past 11 years (I am 23 for those who like to do math). I am also mature enough NOT to have to pick sides.

The point is that I have a PC desktop, but I want a Mac laptop for a number of reasons. (1) They are superior. (2) OS X is superior and (3) I want to be a part of what Jobs and Co are doing for computing. Rather than trying to make money (I am also in the process of earning my MBA so I am not business stupid) Jobs is trying to revolutionize personal computing, and doing a fine job of it.

I can't say that I have much of a point here other than this. Whether it be laptops or potato chips, ever dollar in your pocket is a vote. Use your votes how you feel best!

Though I am tired of waiting, I am voting for whatever new 15" PowerBook Apple comes out with next. I don't care if it has a bigger screen, a G5 or newer video hardware. If it lets me use OS X and BSD, I will be pleased enough.

 

[rjstanford]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i hate steve jobs

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Something that I've tried to get across, but failed to so far, it would seem, is that Apple's prices are competitive given the hardware you get.

You know, I keep hearing this. Check out my previous comparison about what you can get in a $1,300 Dell laptop these days. Any comments? What do you get in $1300 Apple laptops these days?

For the price of a 1GB 17" powerbook with AppleCare (the current top of the line == $3,948) you can get a lot too.

Let's see. I just priced this Mobile Workstation out at $3,894 on dell.com, ignoring discounts, coupons, et cetera (which is pretty darn unrealistic considering that they're all over the place, its even offering me a free 18" LCD monitor now), but anyway:

Processor:
Dell: 1.6ghz Pentium M (about equal to a 1.6ghz G5)
Apple: 1ghz Motorola G4 (about equal to a .9ghz G5)

Memory:
Dell: 1GB installed, 2GB maximum
Apple: 1GB installed, 1GB maximum

Graphics:
Dell: NVIDIA Quadro FX Go700 w/ 128mb RAM
Apple: NVIDIA Quadro FX GeForce4 440 w/ 64mb RAM

Dell: 15.4" monitor with 1920x1200 resolution
Apple: 17" monitor with 1440x900 resolution

Storage:
Dell: 60GB 7200rpm ATA-100 hard drive
Apple: 60GB 4200rpm hard drive

Wireless:
Dell: Bluetooth, 802.11a, 802.11b, 802.11g, infrared
Apple: Bluetooth, 802.11g, 802.11b

Ports:
Dell: USB2, Gigabit Ethernet, SVHS, Firewire
Apple: USB, Gigabit Ethernet, SVHS, Firewire, DVI

Software:
Dell: Microsoft XP Professional, Microsoft Office XP
Apple: Mac OS X, iLife

Removable Storage:
Dell: 2X DVD+RW rewritable DVD drive 2X/16X/8X/4X/24X
Apple: 1X DVD-R DVD drive 1X/8X/8X/4X/24X

Support:
Dell: 3 yrs Onsite parts/labor
Apple: 3 yrs mail-in parts/labor

All that for $50 less than Apple's price. Tell me again how Apple's hardware is so superior? They're at least a generation behind in many areas. The Dell has 80% more processor power, close on twice the HD speed, twice the screen area, twice the optical drive speed, twice the available memory, and a better standard warranty than Apple even offers. Heck, it even has twice the number of mouse buttons.

Granted, the Dell thicker (1.5") but its also smaller (14.2" x 10.8" can fit into a laptop case). They both weigh about the same (7lbs for the Dell vs 6.8 for the Apple (which Apple has the nerve to call "utra-light")).

Again, I'm not trying to just bash Apple, but comments like "Apple's prices are competitive given the hardware you get" just aren't true any more.

-Richard

EDIT: Corrected typo

 

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by whitehbr
Though I am tired of waiting, I am voting for whatever new 15" PowerBook Apple comes out with next. I don't care if it has a bigger screen, a G5 or newer video hardware. If it lets me use OS X and BSD, I will be pleased enough.

Er, if those are your criteria and you're tired of waiting, you can get some pretty great deals on the current 15" laptop right now...
It doesn't have a bigger screen, a G5, or newer video hardware, but you said that you're alright with that...

-Richard

 

[whitehbr]

Well, that is not entirely true. I want a backlit keyboard, bluetooth, 802.11g... basically all the things that that the current 17" has. That, and I would be foolish to buy such an aging model when a new one has to be so close.

I will just wait. I am going to buy a new Pentex Optio S digicam tomorrow, so that will keep me occupied till they announce the new laptops.

 

[the_dalex]

17" comparison

I don't think it makes sense to compare Dell's current top-of-the-line with Apple's 8-month-old laptop that is on the verge of an update.

Besides, my local University sells the standard-model 17" Powerbook with Applecare for $2686. Retail is for suckers.

Wait until a new model comes out, then compare. Unless, of course, you have an agenda.

 

[art399]

Re: 17" comparison

Originally posted by the_dalex
I don't think it makes sense to compare Dell's current top-of-the-line with Apple's 8-month-old laptop that is on the verge of an update.

Besides, my local University sells the standard-model 17" Powerbook with Applecare for $2686. Retail is for suckers.

Wait until a new model comes out, then compare. Unless, of course, you have an agenda.

I don't know what planet you're on, but the "wait until a new model then compare" argument doesn't make any sense at all to me. Apple is selling what they are selling for the price they are selling it at, period. The average consumer will never be required to keep up on "rumors" in order to make a comparison. One will find in most areas of the economy when things get old and somewhat out of date, their price lowers to reflect that, which apple has done to some extent on the 15". I'm not commenting on the accuracy of the comparison post, all i'm saying is if you're doing a price/feature comparison it is absolutely valid at any point in time based on the current prices, regardless of any rumors about future activity in the product line.

 

[rjstanford]

Re: 17" comparison

Originally posted by the_dalex
Besides, my local University sells the standard-model 17" Powerbook with Applecare for $2686. Retail is for suckers.

Er, yes. First, I quoted the top-of-the-line model with 1GB of RAM and AppleCare, university price $3,508.

Second, if we're playing that game, let me apply the $200 rebate currently on the Dell and my 10% off coupon (sent to anyone who registers on dell.com), to bring the price of the Dell down to $3,324. Which brings the Dell from $50 cheaper than the Apple all the way to $175 cheaper than the Apple.

Third, you're still getting "80% more processor power, close on twice the HD speed, twice the screen area, twice the optical drive speed, twice the available memory, and a better standard warranty than Apple even offers. Heck, it even has twice the number of mouse buttons."

Oh, and I forgot the first time - include twice the graphics RAM and significantly better graphics performance.

-Richard

ps: You can do a lot better than $200 plus 10% off a Dell if you try. I was trying to slant things in Apple's favor, since they're about the most stick-to-MSRPish of the major players right now.

EDIT: BTW, has it occurred to you that even this comparison is unfairly biased in Apple's favor when it comes to pricing? The Dell numbers are available to anyone. Yours are only valid for students.