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Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
4,034
5,402
East Coast, United States
With the impending debut of AppleTV+ methinks that any focus on maintaining 220 ppi is, quite simply, sniffing down the wrong trail here. I've got to believe that Apple does not want to showcase their new TV+ service on their own computers with their now-dated, meager 500 nit max displays. The upcoming hardware releases, IMHO, are going to be all about resolution, brightness, HDR and, of course, speed. All certainly worthy of a full scale rollout event at some point, I should think, especially with the impending holiday season soon to be upon us.

While the Pro XDR Display will be providing 1000(sustained)/1600(max) nits brightness @ only 218ppi, methinks Apple tipped-their-hand a bit with that announcement in letting the world know that their "next big thing" was HDR display (research and) technology.

I feel that they further tipped-that-hand as the new iPhone Pros are delivering 800(max typical)/1200(max HDR) nits @ 458ppi, so it should not be any stretch to imagine a full 4K (4096x2160) 16" MBP display coming in at around 350ppi (rough estimate by my math, ha!) with similar or better nit performance. The way I'm seeing things is that the next hardware releases are all going to be about enjoying their latest AppleTV+, on the go, at resolutions and brightness-levels well-beyond what their competitor's can deliver on their hardware. "That's where the puck is going", IMHO.

Add to that...

My new Panasonic Lumix S1 can shoot both stills and video with Wide Color Gamuts and >10-bit HDR but I have no way to view, work with, or enjoy that content at it's intended brightness and color spaces short of plugging the camera into an HDR HLG-compliant TV. It's a real-life problem that needs immediate solving both for content creators (read: video/photo editors) and for your average consumer who is now getting their hands on this level of image/video capturing technology. That HDR "puck" is already in the net with no way to accurately "work with it" or "enjoy it properly" on any Macs.

Watching Apple's latest releases with AppleTV+, Apple Arcade, Metal API FCPX, Mac Pro w/ XDR Pro, iPhone 11 Pro, I'm feeling confident that the folks at Cupertino have been R&Ding "the HDR content creation and delivery problem" for some time now and that we're beginning to see those products that solve that roll out. A 16", 4K, 1000-nit, HDR display, MBP is my thinking...hoping the same for iMac's and iPad Pro's soon to follow!

Well, that's how I'm calling it. :)

The main content delivery devices for Apple to showcase and HDR content that they have with AppleTV+ is going to be the iPhone and the iPad. Those are their main drivers right now and for some time to come. Even an AppleTV 4K is subject to the whim of the ultra-expensive or the ultra-cheap 4K UltraHD ”HDR” TVs it is connected to currently.

HDR content is coming, but it is coming slowly because a 10-bit DCI 4K HDR workflow is pretty much in the nascent stages of life and is much more resource intensive than 2K content. The Mac Pro and the XDR Display are changing that, but I would say 99% of consumers that are on 2K or 4K TVs don’t even have the ability to view HDR content on the TV they own and that is unlikely to change for quite some time. Sure, building your workflow to deal with 10-bit DCI 4K HDR content is a great thing to do, but it’s not cheap and it’s not common yet. I suspect that 2020 is going to be a breakout year for this, but the majority of video editors/content creators are going to have to continue releasing SDR content for the majority of their paying projects even as they are asked to provide HDR content that they may or may not have the workflow to deal with now.

The Panasonic S1 is a great camera and I would love to have an S1H myself, but HDR content is going to take quite a bit of time to mature and filter into the mainstream for most everyone and its going to be mostly limited to niche distribution and streaming services where you pay an upcharge for that content.

That the 16” MacBook Pro will not have a display capable of displaying UHD or DCI 4K HDR content at a 1:1, I say “NUTS”. Plenty of people deal with lower res proxies on a day in/day out basis. Having a decent mastering monitor ( RE: one you can actually afford) that is color managed and someone who can actually grade colors for HDR and SDR content is probably your weakest link in the whole chain from a cost and talent perspective. All the technology in the world can only get you so far. Color management from end to end is not for the faint of heart or the weekend wedding photographer. EDIT: https://blog.frame.io/2019/10/14/grading-mixed-delivery/

The “average” consumer has had 10-bit and HDR for a few years now and they aren’t any closer to knowing what the hell they are doing than when they first discovered and paid for LOG upgrades. Color grading and knowing how to make decent SDR content from HDR content is not something most people just suddenly gain the skills for overnight with that shiny new camera they bought.

Besides a 16” 4K, 1000-nit HDR display MacBook Pro would start at around $5K easily and only last around 4-5 hours on battery at those sustained brightness levels, not to mention the display itself is going to get very hot until the technology catches up to the DisplayHDR specifications - https://displayhdr.org/

The tech will get there. The question is how many consumers will actually see the benefit and will content creators bother to take the time and money necessary to provide widespread, mainstream content in HDR. Or rather, will their budget and their clients allow for it?

That’s how I’m calling it.
 
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TechZeke

macrumors 68020
Jul 29, 2012
2,455
2,289
Dallas, TX
Interesting it's not using the rounded corner display we were all expecting... maybe it really is a stopgap model between the flaky current gen and the full redesign a bit further down the line (ARM?) This does suggest it will be a bit bigger than the current 15" unit, though.

Edit: unless the image is just of a current 15" as a placeholder?

If an ARM Mac was going to appear, the 12” MacBook was the time/model to do it with. (Small, low power, fanless). ARM definitely wouldn’t show up on a machine marketed for use with Adobe and Autodesk type professional products like a 15” MacBook Pro. I don’t understand this forum’s fixation with an ARM Mac that literally won’t have any useable advantage over an Intel Mac, especially when Intel already ultra low power fanless chips. It just makes no sense.

This also goes for Microsoft’s ARM based Surface Pro X: None of advantages of full desktop windows applications, and None of the advantages of the iPad’s ARM ecosystem for the same price as an iPad Pro or Surface Pro. Give it up already.
 

chucker23n1

macrumors G3
Dec 7, 2014
8,599
11,382
With the impending debut of AppleTV+ methinks that any focus on maintaining 220 ppi is, quite simply, sniffing down the wrong trail here.

While Apple TV+ will run on Mac, that's really not the main platform for it. Most people will watch it on a big-screen TV either using Apple TV or using one of the more recent TV sets that support AirPlay 2 and/or Apple TV+. The second-biggest device will be the iPad.

On top of that, the MacBook Pro is not a consumer device. You can make the case that the iMac can be a living room-esque experience for some, but even that is a stretch.

I've got to believe that Apple does not want to showcase their new TV+ service on their own computers with their now-dated, meager 500 nit max displays.

The MacBook Pro's intent is not to showcase a TV service. If it were, they would also put an OLED display in it. They won't, because color accuracy matters far more for its intended audience than nicer contrast ratios.

Instead, as can be seen with the Pro XDR Display, they will double down on high-end photo/audio/video use cases for the Pro Macs, not on making TV+ nicer to watch. There are already plenty of other Apple devices to make TV+ nice to watch.

I feel that they further tipped-that-hand as the new iPhone Pros are delivering 800(max typical)/1200(max HDR) nits @ 458ppi, so it should not be any stretch to imagine a full 4K (4096x2160) 16" MBP display coming in at around 350ppi (rough estimate by my math, ha!) with similar or better nit performance.

You cannot compare OLED and TFT ppis like that, because the amount of subpixels differs.
 

ThisBougieLife

Suspended
Jan 21, 2016
3,259
10,662
Northern California
I would love to see a 4K MBP with "true retina" at 1920x1080 (or the 16:10 equivalent). I wouldn't see that as being too small. I've used some Windows laptops that do this (on 15") and I was fine with it. Having 1440x900 be the retina resolution seems so small now. I know their "solution" was to increase the default resolution to a scaled one, but that's no solution (I refuse to use a "scaled" resolution because it makes text and graphics look less crisp). Oh well. I'm not holding my breath for that.
 

jlocker

macrumors 65816
Jun 20, 2011
1,022
1,194
Lake Michigan
I would love to see a 4K MBP with "true retina" at 1920x1080 (or the 16:10 equivalent). I wouldn't see that as being too small. I've used some Windows laptops that do this (on 15") and I was fine with it. Having 1440x900 be the retina resolution seems so small now. I know their "solution" was to increase the default resolution to a scaled one, but that's no solution (I refuse to use a "scaled" resolution because it makes text and graphics look less crisp). Oh well. I'm not holding my breath for that.

Have a great looking laptop screen is important but it is also the law of diminishing returns in a resolution of a 15 inch display and a 16 inch display. And remember that people's eyes as they age can not see large pixel density. I can see the need for huge pixel density when you start to get screens 27in and larger.

Having a high density monitor that you can connect to the Macbook Pro which gives you more information on a desktop display seems more reasonable.
 

Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
4,034
5,402
East Coast, United States
Have a great looking laptop screen is important but it is also the law of diminishing returns in a resolution of a 15 inch display and a 16 inch display. And remember that people's eyes as they age can not see large pixel density. I can see the need for huge pixel density when you start to get screens 27in and larger.

Having a high density monitor that you can connect to the Macbook Pro which gives you more information on a desktop display seems more reasonable.
Took the words right out of my mouth...even interpolated resolutions I cannot see all the complaints that it’s not crisp enough...my almost 50 year old eyes are quite happy with (2560x1440) on my BenQ SW 271. YMMV
 

ThisBougieLife

Suspended
Jan 21, 2016
3,259
10,662
Northern California
Well I'm only 21 so my eyes are maybe a bit sharper and more discerning ;) When I first got the 2016 MBP and saw the resolution had been increased I noticed right away that it wasn't as crisp and quickly switched to 1440x900 and have been using that resolution ever since. I guess if I really insist on more screen space (at true retina level) I could use an external monitor or get an iMac. I'm not dissatisfied with 1440x900, though. Will be interesting to see what resolution they ultimately decide on for the 16".
 

jlocker

macrumors 65816
Jun 20, 2011
1,022
1,194
Lake Michigan
Well I'm only 21 so my eyes are maybe a bit sharper and more discerning ;) When I first got the 2016 MBP and saw the resolution had been increased I noticed right away that it wasn't as crisp and quickly switched to 1440x900 and have been using that resolution ever since. I guess if I really insist on more screen space (at true retina level) I could use an external monitor or get an iMac. I'm not dissatisfied with 1440x900, though. Will be interesting to see what resolution they ultimately decide on for the 16".

I wish i had 21 year old eyes again ?, i can see it from your point of view.? Will have to see how Apple augmented reality glass change the way we use displays and information.
 

Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
4,034
5,402
East Coast, United States
Well I'm only 21 so my eyes are maybe a bit sharper and more discerning ;) When I first got the 2016 MBP and saw the resolution had been increased I noticed right away that it wasn't as crisp and quickly switched to 1440x900 and have been using that resolution ever since. I guess if I really insist on more screen space (at true retina level) I could use an external monitor or get an iMac. I'm not dissatisfied with 1440x900, though. Will be interesting to see what resolution they ultimately decide on for the 16".
Yeah, my son is older than you...enjoy those 21 year old eyes...take good care of them.
 

robotfist

macrumors regular
Nov 7, 2007
134
235
If all Apple does is shrink the bezel on the same problematic design, I'm going to:

Be silently disappointed

then

be vocally disappointed

then

go stand on a mountain top during a lightning storm and scream into the abyss while cursing Apple

then

begrudgingly go and buy the stupid machine because I hate Windows so much.
 

RS52

macrumors newbie
Oct 20, 2019
12
24
Really, the bottom case? Yeah, there’s zero reason to remove the bottom case as there are no user serviceable parts in the MBP. Why is this even on the list?

I remove bottom cases sometimes several times a day for years and it has been a real pain since they changed the design. No one likes removing them...
 

John.B.Sirius

macrumors newbie
Apr 10, 2019
26
19
Based on the analysis of the 16” being physically wider, it’d be great if they added function keys back for those that use it (I don’t) and placed a touchbar above it. Having the extra volume within the top case could allow for it. After customizing my touchbar with BetterTouchTool, it’s hard to go back. Hell, it’d be awesome if they released a new magic keyboard with a Touch Bar and Touch ID.

I actually love the feel of my 2017 15” keyboard since I tend to “ float” and not smash the keys so in my case they are comfortable and quiet. And I’m coming from using a Filco Ninja Majestouch with Cherry Black switches for years. I’m also one of the unfortunate folks that have had zero keyboard issues, which is a total bummer. I really wouldn’t mind 3 or 4 Apple store visits if it meant getting a replacement 2019 model, but I am lucky that there’s an Apple Store just 20 minutes away.
 

smulji

macrumors 68030
Feb 21, 2011
2,901
2,786
With the impending debut of AppleTV+ methinks that any focus on maintaining 220 ppi is, quite simply, sniffing down the wrong trail here. I've got to believe that Apple does not want to showcase their new TV+ service on their own computers with their now-dated, meager 500 nit max displays. The upcoming hardware releases, IMHO, are going to be all about resolution, brightness, HDR and, of course, speed. All certainly worthy of a full scale rollout event at some point, I should think, especially with the impending holiday season soon to be upon us.

While the Pro XDR Display will be providing 1000(sustained)/1600(max) nits brightness @ only 218ppi, methinks Apple tipped-their-hand a bit with that announcement in letting the world know that their "next big thing" was HDR display (research and) technology.

I feel that they further tipped-that-hand as the new iPhone Pros are delivering 800(max typical)/1200(max HDR) nits @ 458ppi, so it should not be any stretch to imagine a full 4K (4096x2160) 16" MBP display coming in at around 350ppi (rough estimate by my math, ha!) with similar or better nit performance. The way I'm seeing things is that the next hardware releases are all going to be about enjoying their latest AppleTV+, on the go, at resolutions and brightness-levels well-beyond what their competitor's can deliver on their hardware. "That's where the puck is going", IMHO.

Add to that...

My new Panasonic Lumix S1 can shoot both stills and video with Wide Color Gamuts and >10-bit HDR but I have no way to view, work with, or enjoy that content at it's intended brightness and color spaces short of plugging the camera into an HDR HLG-compliant TV. It's a real-life problem that needs immediate solving both for content creators (read: video/photo editors) and for your average consumer who is now getting their hands on this level of image/video capturing technology. That HDR "puck" is already in the net with no way to accurately "work with it" or "enjoy it properly" on any Macs.

Watching Apple's latest releases with AppleTV+, Apple Arcade, Metal API FCPX, Mac Pro w/ XDR Pro, iPhone 11 Pro, I'm feeling confident that the folks at Cupertino have been R&Ding "the HDR content creation and delivery problem" for some time now and that we're beginning to see those products that solve that roll out. A 16", 4K, 1000-nit, HDR display, MBP is my thinking...hoping the same for iMac's and iPad Pro's soon to follow!

Well, that's how I'm calling it. :)
That’s going to be one expensive machine
 
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CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,976
12,140
San Diego, CA, USA
Have they ever had a November event? I can't recall.
Not that I can recall, offhand. I'm sure someone has a detailed list somewhere. They like to do it long enough before the holiday buying season to both ramp up production and get people excited to buy. But, they're clearly running behind schedule in general this fall. And there's no law or Official Apple Rule that forbids them from doing an early November event. Unprecedented doesn't mean impossible, just hasn't happened yet (technically, every repeating thing was unprecedented before it happened the first time). We could, also, see invites this week for an event next week, as others have mentioned.
[automerge]1571603830[/automerge]
I fully expect we will get a disappointing 3072×1920.
Disappointing is in the eye of the beholder. It'd be a big step up from the 1280x800 I'm using now.
[automerge]1571603997[/automerge]
The only things that still screams "event" are: new iPad Pros, new AirPods, iTrackers and possibly a new Apple TV. There are enough things here to fill a 90 minute event.
So, event late October or early November with iPads, AirPods, Trackers and Apple TV, with a "One More Thing" for the 16" MacBook Pro. Possibly with a press release for spec bumps on the lesser MBP's just before the event.
 
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CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,976
12,140
San Diego, CA, USA
It’s not going to have everything we wish for, like no annoying touchbar etc. It’s clearly going to be more of a refining & fixing-flaws product. Probably with a few changes to price and configurations too. Possibly slightly higher power GPU explaining the 96W power adapter.
Crazy thought, but what if the GPU in the new 16" MBP isn't AMD or Nvidia or Intel, but rather is Apple - an in-house design.

They've gone with in-house GPU designs in the iPhones, they dropped Open GL support back in Mojave, they "merely" need to tell their in-house chip designers to build a GPU to run Metal against a 6mp screen, with significantly more headroom for power use and a bigger thermal budget (the engineers would probably love that challenge - "you've been doing great on a 6inch screen in a 1/4inch thick sealed fanless box - now what can you do with 2x the pixels, but 10x the space, power, and thermal budget?"). They can hit exactly the GPU specs they need for the MBP design, rather than the MBP design having to work around the specs and limitations of off-the-shelf GPUs from other vendors. It'd be the next step towards an all-Apple-designed MBP (which will achieve fruition with the eventual ARM-based MBP).

Lots of folks talk about the anticipated switch from x86_64 CPUs to ARM (almost certain to happen eventually, but it could debut next week or five years from now), but I don't hear any talk of switching from AMD to Apple GPUs.
 
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Vjosullivan

macrumors 65816
Oct 21, 2013
1,188
1,436
The tech will get there. The question is how many consumers will actually see the benefit and will content creators bother to take the time and money necessary to provide widespread, mainstream content in HDR.
Sounds a bit like 3D TV and cinema. The technology was impressive but the final results generally weren't. Certainly not good enough to create an ongoing demand.

In this case the picture quality might be demonstrably superior on high end equipment but nobody is complaining about the picture on the current iPhone lineup (nor the Adrriod equivalents).
 
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CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,976
12,140
San Diego, CA, USA
Hey Apple, if you are listening:

1. Bring back the scissor keyboard style. You’ve doubled down on the butterfly mechanism for way to long!
...
A good list. I expect the keyboard replacement is a done deal. I'd love MagSafe in any incarnation (it solves the repeated connection and cord yank problems better than USB-C - have a dedicated MagSafe power connection, but also allow charging through the USB-C ports), I'd love the return of an ethernet port (don't need it often but when you do you want a really damn physically secure connection, that a dongle can't provide), HDMI would be nice (but since you need a cable anyway, HDMI-to-USBC cables aren't that much trouble), ... and, frankly, if I get a physical Escape key, they can do what they want with the rest of the top row.

I'd really like to see a return to machines that can be reasonably opened, so that one can replace the RAM, SSD, and battery. I remember back when the battery in my 2008 MBP swelled up, it was literally 2 minutes at the Genius Bar, using a coin as a screwdriver, to replace the battery. Now my work laptop is at Apple for the same repair, but it's 3-5 days and they have to send it out to a repair facility. The machine I'm using at the moment had its RAM and HD replaced (double RAM and switch to SSD) years ago, in less than 30 minutes, without even going to Apple. Those are capabilities one might expect a Pro machine to have, that are worth some extra expense and a little less thinness.

A machine worthy of the Pro moniker should be powerful, maintainable, upgradable, and capable of a wide variety of connections out of the box. Rather than being a sealed non-upgradable, disposable component. That's more fitting of a consumer-level machine.
 
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itsamacthing

macrumors 6502a
Sep 26, 2011
895
514
Bangkok
Looks a little thicker, hopefully it has better thermals, better keyboard, faceID, real escape key and dare I say SD card reader?
 

Vjosullivan

macrumors 65816
Oct 21, 2013
1,188
1,436
A good list. I expect the keyboard replacement is a done deal. I'd love MagSafe in any incarnation (it solves the repeated connection and cord yank problems better than USB-C - have a dedicated MagSafe power connection, but also allow charging through the USB-C ports), I'd love the return of an ethernet port (don't need it often but when you do you want a really damn physically secure connection, that a dongle can't provide), HDMI would be nice (but since you need a cable anyway, HDMI-to-USBC cables aren't that much trouble), ... and, frankly, if I get a physical Escape key, they can do what they want with the rest of the top row.

I'd really like to see a return to machines that can be reasonably opened, so that one can replace the RAM, SSD, and battery. I remember back when the battery in my 2008 MBP swelled up, it was literally 2 minutes at the Genius Bar, using a coin as a screwdriver, to replace the battery. Now my work laptop is at Apple for the same repair, but it's 3-5 days and they have to send it out to a repair facility. The machine I'm using at the moment had its RAM and HD replaced (double RAM and switch to SSD) years ago, in less than 30 minutes, without even going to Apple. Those are capabilities one might expect a Pro machine to have, that are worth some extra expense and a little less thinness.

A machine worthy of the Pro moniker should be powerful, maintainable, upgradable, and capable of a wide variety of connections out of the box. Rather than being a sealed non-upgradable, disposable component. That's more fitting of a consumer-level machine.
This could all be achieved overnight (literally) simply by Apple lifting the restriction that restricts macOS to running only on Macs and opening it to run on any generic PC.
 

chucker23n1

macrumors G3
Dec 7, 2014
8,599
11,382
This could all be achieved overnight (literally) simply by Apple lifting the restriction that restricts macOS to running only on Macs and opening it to run on any generic PC.

They might consider doing that if there were enough people willing to spend $399 on an OS. Otherwise, no way.
 
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