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You might have mentioned it earlier, but in addition to using less power (specifically, in standby) LPDDR3 must be soldered; it’s only available as multi chip package/package on package. There’s no socketed LPDDR3 (or LPDDR4, either) such as SODIMMs

Yes, good point. But it should be noted the reason Apple solders the MBP's RAM isn't because it has no choice—even if socketed LPDDR3/4 did exist, Apple would solder it anyways. At least that's what Apple's past practice, with the previous gen MBP, indicates: The previous gen MBPs (2013-2015) used DDR3L rather than LPDDR3. DDR3L is available socketed, yet Apple soldered it.
 
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I'm almost sure that the very stable AMD driver is something Apple wrote and maintain themselves . For whatever reason, good or bad, Apple is either unwilling or unable to do the same for NVidia cards - it could be NVidia having a license agreement (if you use our cards, you have to use our driver). This would make sense to protect the expensive Quadro line, which are basically binned GeForces with highly stable drivers (mobile Quadros are nothing more than that, some desktop parts are slightly different in real specifications, although never close to justifying their price premiums). [emphasis mine]

If Macs were using GeForces as Quadros, it would give Apple a huge price advantage over HP and other workstation vendors who pay the Quadro premium (and perhaps encourage HP to write a "GeForce as Quadro" driver). NVidia could be saying "we'll sell you GeForces, but we'll only port the gaming driver, and you can't use your own" - if you want a more stable driver, you pay for Quadros. Apple is a big enough fish in AMDs pond that AMD is letting Apple use their own driver.

Of course, it could also be Apple simply being lazy! NVidia could have no objection to Apple using any driver they want (and there could be no technical obstacle to a stable Apple driver for GeForces), but Apple might be saying "we already have a nice Mac GPU driver, let's task those developers with designing more Memojis instead of writing an NVidia driver". I wouldn't put it past them.

I don't think that's the issue; it seems to be more of a general conflict between the companies: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...in-macos-and-thats-a-bad-sign-for-the-mac-pro

Also, I understand from the above linked article that the issue isn't that Apple thinks it needs to write the drivers itself in order to get the stability it requires:

"It's not like we have any real work to do on it, Nvidia has great engineers," said one [Apple] developer in a sentiment echoed by nearly all of the Apple staff we spoke with. "It's not like Metal 2 can't be moved to Nvidia with great performance. Somebody just doesn't want it there."

In addition, even if Apple did write the driver, I'm not sure if it could turn a GeForce into a Quadro just by providing a Quadro-type driver. In particular, I've read the differences between Quadros/Teslas and GeForces go beyond binning and driver stability, including:
1) Error correction.
2) Unified memory (memory sharing) and, perhaps relatedly, GPU-Direct RDMA, which I gather allows GPUs to communicate directly with each other without going through the CPU.
3) Much faster connection speed (NVLink vs. PCIe).
[see: https://www.microway.com/knowledge-...of-nvidia-geforce-gpus-and-nvidia-tesla-gpus/ ]

So my question is: How much of each of these is due to the drivers vs. the hardware? IIUC, ECC RAM requires different hardware, so I wouldn't be surprised if implementing error correction in GPUs required different hardware as well---which means Apple couldn't turn a GeForce into a Quadro simply by supplying a different driver.

Not saying NVIDIA isn't charging a large premium for all this, just wanted to get an accurate understanding of the differences between the chips, which seems to go significantly beyond what you wrote.

Also, even if one could turn a GeForce into a Quadro just by changing the driver (which doesn't seem to be the case), NVIDIA could still both allow Apple to write the drivers and protect its commercial interests through a licensing agreement that limited those drivers to a GeForce feature set.
 
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Not sure if anyone has said this but the choice of resolution seems kind of odd. I wonder if they bumped it up a little just so we could have rounded corners and not loose any screen real estate.
 
How much of the hardware difference between GeForces and Quadros is true of mobile GPUs (or even single desktop GPUs)? ECC may be - I don't know whether or not mobile Quadros use error correction. Many of the others apply only in cases of of multiple GPUs. Apple's primary GPU use is mobile GPUs (MacBook Pros), then mid-range, soldered to the motherboard desktop GPUs (iMac, including the iMac Pro). The only case where Apple uses GPUs where many of those feature differentiations might apply is in the Mac Pro.

Even if it's not a "turn a GeForce into a Quadro" driver, an Apple-written driver focusing on non-gaming performance would turn a GeForce within Apple's use cases into something close enough to a Quadro that NVidia might be concerned. They may be weighing this against the prospect of some real Quadro sales on the Mac Pro, and they might not like the math.

It is interesting that NVidia is sort of doing this themselves (on Windows). Their new Studio Driver for creative pro apps, which eliminates some of the less stable gaming features, is similar in concept to Apple's AMD driver.
 
Not sure if anyone has said this but the choice of resolution seems kind of odd. I wonder if they bumped it up a little just so we could have rounded corners and not loose any screen real estate.
The resolution doesn't seem odd to me, at least. The current 15" MBP has a 15.4" screen which, at 2880-by-1800, gives ~220 ppi. They reportedly want to add an inch to the diagonal, which would increase it to 16.4", i.e., by a factor of 16.4/15.4 = 1.06494, while maintaining the same 16:10 aspect ratio. Thus the horizontal and vertical dimensions would increase by that 1.06494 factor. Hence, to maintain the 220 ppi "retina" pixel density, they'd need to increase both the horizontal and vertical number of pixels by the same 1.06494 factor:

2880 x 1.06494 = 3067* ~3072*
1800 x 1.06494 = 1917* ~ 1920*

*These slight discrepancies mean either the actual dimension of the new screen is 1.03", rather than 1", larger, or that the pixel density will be slightly higher on the new screen.

Note also that 3072:1920 = 16:10 (same aspect ratio)

It's also interesting to note that the specs for the 17" MBP's list them as having a 17", rather than a 17"+ (e.g., 17.4") screen size. That means the upcoming 16" MBP, with its putative 16.4" diagonal, would have a screen size pretty close to that of the 17" MBP's.

On the other hand, if their design goal is to stick to the current case W & L (rather than have a 220 ppi 3072:1920 display), I estimate that will limit the screen size to a 16.0" diagonal (I don't have one in front of me to measure, so did a calculation using Apple's listed horizontal dimension, and subtracted 2 mm on each side for the case+rubber gasket): [EDIT: I have subsequently measured the available screen diagonal (bezels included) on the current 15" MBP, confirming it is in fact very close to 16.0".]

case horizontal: 34.93 cm
34.93 cm - 0.4 cm = 34.5 cm = est. available horizontal display area
34.5*10/16 = available vertical display area (based on 16:10 aspect ratio).
Thus:
(sqrt(34.5^2 + (34.5/1.6)^2))/2.54 = 16.0"
[divided by 2.54 to convert cm to in]
 
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They seriously JUST released the 8-Core Macbook Pro. Why would they do that 2 months into a release cycle? It would be great to have a beastly laptop that competes with 17"s, with plug and play on the XDR monitor. Best of both worlds.
 
I know a doctor, a lawyer, and a dentist who state that the most functional computing environment for them was the old 17" MBP. They are waiting for the new 16-16.5" to be released and say that there are many others in their professions that feel the same way. They want a laptop to confer with clients/patients in alternate situations, e.g., courtroom, boardroom, or consultation room and need the portability of the laptop. It is also easy to pull up information, then flip the laptop around to show the screen to their folks multiple times as they consult with them. While the 15" can work, a larger screen is much more visible/readable from across a table. I think it will also be a real asset to those in the audio-visual arts, movie studios, music production. Despite the projected cost, it may be that this will be a lucrative profit center for Apple.
 
I haven't followed rumours that closely so apologies if this has been covered. Do you all think that this 16" will completely replace the 15" and that there'll then be a 14" to replace the 13" or do you think the other models will stay around? I ask because I saw a video where a guy thought it might be possible that this is a standalone new model and that Apple will keep the other sizes.

When Apple last refreshed the MacBook Pro, they did it with both the 13" and the 15" at the same time, right? Was it that way with the design prior to that one as well? If so, I wonder why we're only getting rumours of a 16".

Any thoughts?
 
Could go either way.

My hope is this replaces the existing 15, and has roughly the same size but a smaller bezel. It’s possible they’ll wait to do the same for the 13 later on. That’s not unprecedented.

But they also might launch this as the new high end, which would explain no rumors of 14 inches.
 
Yeah, I thought about that possibility as well. In one video I saw, the guy crunched the numbers and with the rumoured resolution, and with them sticking to 220 PPI, he talked about how the new screen alone (excluding any small bezel) would be ever so slightly bigger than the whole screen + bezel on the current 15", meaning it'd be a larger device. We'll see, I guess.
 
Anyone who has one of the current-generation MBPs can just measure the screen diagonal, bezels included, and see if it's <16.4". If yes, the device would need to be a bit larger (assuming the new display is 220 ppi with the predicted no. of pixels). [A quick calculation -- I don't have one in front of me -- gives 16.0", indicating they would need to increase the length and width by at least 2.5% to accommodate a 16.4" screen.] On the other hand, if they've decided to stick to the current length and width, that will limit the screen diagonal to 16.0".
 
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I still think the most interesting part of this is the statement by Apple that the same Pro Workflow Team that helped guide the design of the new Mac Pro is also helping to guide the design of the new MacBook Pro.
 
Anyone who has one of the current-generation MBPs can just measure the screen diagonal, bezels included, and see if it's <16.4". If yes, the device would need to be a bit larger (assuming the new display is 220 ppi with the predicted no. of pixels). [A quick calculation -- I don't have one in front of me -- gives 16.0", indicating they would need to increase the length and width by at least 2.5% to accommodate a 16.4" screen.] On the other hand, if they've decided to stick to the current length and width, that will limit the screen diagonal to 16.0".

It's sqrt(13.75"^2+9.48"^2) = 16.7012843817". That's probably not enough to cram in a 16.5" display, but more than the 16.0" you came up with.
[doublepost=1563178100][/doublepost]
I still think the most interesting part of this is the statement by Apple that the same Pro Workflow Team that helped guide the design of the new Mac Pro is also helping to guide the design of the new MacBook Pro.

I don't believe there's been any statement from Apple whatsoever on the existence of a new MacBook Pro.
 
It's sqrt(13.75"^2+9.48"^2) = 16.7012843817". That's probably not enough to cram in a 16.5" display, but more than the 16.0" you came up with.
[doublepost=1563178100][/doublepost]

My calculation is correct. Not sure how you got 9.48", but maybe you used a 16:11 instead of a 16:10 aspect ratio, and typo'd the last digit:

13.75" * 11/16 = 9.45"
I.e., ignoring the gasket and case, as you did, you should get 13.75" *10/16 = 8.59"

Anyways, here's the same calculation I did in my original post, except done from the start in inches:

13.75" – 0.16" = 13.59" (where 0.16" is what's lost to the case + gasket)
13.59" * 10/16 = 8.49"**

sqrt(13.59"^2 + 8.49"^2) = 16.0"

[**Technically, I should have done 13.75 *10/16 – 0.16 = 8.43", but this still gives a diagonal of 16.0"]

[doublepost=1563227030][/doublepost]
What statement??

It's the same quote I linked three pages back. That's why I wrote "I still think...."
One interesting thing to note is this quote from Doug Brooks, the product manager for the 2019 Mac Pro, referring to the Pro Workflow Team (PWT) Apple brought on to help them design their pro machines: “That team is really a deep investment on what we’re doing here in the pro space,” Brooks told Mac Power Users. “And it goes well beyond just Mac Pro to MacBook Pro [emphasis mine] and even iPad Pro. You’re going to see the benefits and the implications of that team across all of our Mac products and our pro products.” [https://macdailynews.com/2019/06/05...earned-will-trickle-down-to-all-pro-products/]

I don't believe there's been any statement from Apple whatsoever on the existence of a new MacBook Pro.
Clearly the statement by Brooks means a new MacBook Pro is in development, with input by the PWT (there's no other reasonable way to parse it), and that this will be offered as a retail product, irrespective of whether there's been an explicit announcement by Apple of a specific upcoming new model. And that's all I was trying to say. Perhaps I should have written "at least one of the new MacBook Pros" instead of "the new MacBook Pro", but that seems a quibble.
 
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My calculation is correct. Not sure how you got 9.48",

You said "measure the screen diagonal, bezels included". So I took Apple's measurements.

but maybe you used a 16:11 instead of a 16:10 aspect ratio, and typo'd the last digit:

13.75" * 11/16 = 9.45"
I.e., ignoring the gasket and case, as you did, you should get 13.75" *10/16 = 8.59"

I have no idea what on earth you're talking about in terms of "gasket and case". The current MBP case is 13.75" by 9.48", ergo 16.7" in diagonal.

13.75" – 0.16" = 13.59" (where 0.16" is what's lost to the case + gasket)

Are you trying to calculate something bezels excluded?

(I thought the point of this exercise was to figure out if a larger screen with less bezel would fit.)

It's the same quote I linked three pages back. That's why I wrote "I still think...."



Clearly the statement by Brooks means a new MacBook Pro is in development, with input by the PWT (there's no other reasonable way to parse it),

In terms of "that's right, folks, the MacBook Pro isn't canceled! There will be further major and minor revisions", yes. Also: duh.

In terms of "there's a new MacBook Pro design coming to replace the 2016 one soon": no, Apple would rarely want to announce something like that, and they haven't here.
 
You said "measure the screen diagonal, bezels included". So I took Apple's measurements.



I have no idea what on earth you're talking about in terms of "gasket and case". The current MBP case is 13.75" by 9.48", ergo 16.7" in diagonal.



Are you trying to calculate something bezels excluded?

(I thought the point of this exercise was to figure out if a larger screen with less bezel would fit.)



In terms of "that's right, folks, the MacBook Pro isn't canceled! There will be further major and minor revisions", yes. Also: duh.

In terms of "there's a new MacBook Pro design coming to replace the 2016 one soon": no, Apple would rarely want to announce something like that, and they haven't here.

You know, you've repeatedly challenged my posts in a way that shows you're confused about what I've written (in a way that no one else seems to be), and I've been civil in explaining what you've misunderstood. But now, with your gratuitous "duh" comment, it seems you've decided to abandon civility.

So I'm no longer going to take the time to laboriously lift your confusion.

To anyone else reading this: It's obvious I've been calculating the total diagonal "glass" (i.e., clear plastic) dimension, from gasket edge to gasket edge. And, logically, to do that, you have to take the horizontal screen dimension, and then calculate the vertical dimension using the aspect ratio. You can't get the available vertical screen dimension from the case size, because that includes a portion that's covered at the bottom by the hinge.
 
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As a theorist, I of course understand my work ultimately needs to be tested experimentally ;). I thus went to my university's bookstore and measured the available diagonal screen length on the current 15" MacBook Pro, gasket-to-gasket (i.e., including the bezels). I had to be careful to hover the tape measure above the screen rather than rest it on it, so my measurement wasn't as precise as I'd like, but I got ~16.0", thus confirming my calculation.
 
Wouldn't completely bezel-free be hard? Dell's Infinity Edge design on the 15" has about half the bezels of the MBP (it's about 6 mm on each side and 7mm on top). Looking at my MBP, it looks like it has something like 10mm on each side and 15mm on top...
 
Wouldn't completely bezel-free be hard? Dell's Infinity Edge design on the 15" has about half the bezels of the MBP (it's about 6 mm on each side and 7mm on top). Looking at my MBP, it looks like it has something like 10mm on each side and 15mm on top...
Possibly; I don't know. The point of the calculation was to determine the maximum possible diagonal that could be fit into the current form factor, which would be what you'd get if you managed to eliminate bezels entirely. I.e., the upper limit. The practical maximum could of course be less than this theoretical maximum.
 
Wouldn't completely bezel-free be hard? Dell's Infinity Edge design on the 15" has about half the bezels of the MBP (it's about 6 mm on each side and 7mm on top). Looking at my MBP, it looks like it has something like 10mm on each side and 15mm on top...

Well, they'll want to leave a few mm to run cabling to the camera, mic and other sensors.

(If you do this the really lame way, you end up with the LG UltraFine where they left just enough on the side and then realized they needed much thicker bezels at the top for the camera. Looks bad. I'm guessing that's not what Apple is going for here, but it does explain why the top bezel, even on the MBP is a bit more than the side bezels.)
 
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