16-Inch MacBook Pro With All-New Design Expected in 2019, 13-Inch Model May Gain 32GB RAM

[Salty Pirate]

So is a 15 watt quad core 10 nm faster than a 15 watt quad core 14 nm?

Or, do they keep adding cores for more processing power but more wattage draw?

 

[dawindmg08]

Apple may go backwards on ports (it would match what's on the current iMac) but I doubt they would go backwards on power supply. They've gone all-in on USB-C; Magsafe, as it was, is dead. Hopefully they've come up with a Magsafe type adapter for USB-C that's better than the current offerings from 3rd-party vendors....

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Sure, and while we’re hamstringing a portable laptop with having to also tote around a goodie bag weighing more than the laptop, why not just tote around a MacBook mini and then a small monitor and keyboard?

Get real.

A typical 6 to 10-port Multiport USB-C Dock (generally having 1-3 USB-A 3.0, GigE, HDMI 4k (sometimes VGA and/or DVI, too), SD/MicroSD(TF) Slot, sometimes Audio I/O (or just O), and a passthrough USB-C charging port), the kind that go for $40-$70 on Amazon, are generally about the size of a dollar-bill (about 6 in. x 3 in.), about 1/2" thick, and weigh a couple of ounces.

Quit exaggerating to try and "prove" your point. It's too easily disproven.

e.g.

https://www.amazon.com/TOTU-Ethernet-Delivery-Portable-Laptops/dp/B07FX2LW35/


$32 (3 USB 3.0 but no Ethernet)

https://www.amazon.com/HOGORE-Multi-port-Charging-Compatible-ChromeBook/dp/B07H49X1D8/


Here's the kitchen-sink (10 in 1) Dock for $70. You can even run the HDMI and VGA simultaneously (up to 1080p)...

https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-EKSA-Thunderbolt-Gigabit-Ethernet/dp/B07GYBMQKD/


...and here's a 10 in 1 Dock for under $50!!!

https://www.amazon.com/Hagibis-Gigabit-Ethernet-Charging-MacBook/dp/B07MZR8PDF/


$40...

https://www.amazon.com/HooToo-Premium-Adapter-Charging-Chromebook/dp/B019R9ILTG/


$20!!!

https://www.amazon.com/NOVOO-Adapter-Compatible-MateBook-Chromebook/dp/B075FQY5BN/


This $50 one purports to do 100W charging passthrough:

https://www.amazon.com/AUKEY-Adapter-Pass-Through-Charging-Chromebook/dp/B07J62G3JG/


And there's more, more, more!!!

So, you were saying?...

 

[ntlman]

it only matters that it has ports for use in an office (VGA for the old projectors, HDMI for the new projectors, ethernet (because client public WiFi typically sucks), USB), mag-safe (because there might be 4 to 6 people at one fold up table), large screen, and lots of memory (more than 16G).

THANK YOU! Whether working at a shared table or a private desk, having connections that work in an actual office are a bare minimum for this pro-level laptop.

 

[KPandian1]

A typical 6 to 10-port Multiport USB-C Dock (generally having 1-3 USB-A 3.0, GigE, HDMI 4k (sometimes VGA and/or DVI, too), SD/MicroSD(TF) Slot, sometimes Audio I/O (or just O), and a passthrough USB-C charging port), the kind that go for $40-$70 on Amazon, are generally about the size of a dollar-bill (about 6 in. x 3 in.), about 1/2" thick, and weigh a couple of ounces.

So, you were saying?...

The point everyone protesting this change imposed on us is this - why the sudden switch when the accessories are not commonly used, and why remove the current ports when just changing the TB ports to USB-C would've done the trick?

Yes, change is painful and no one likes it - that is why it is done gradually. Cook the frog.

The very first time Apple introduces the USB-C ports, it removed all the existing ports! The all-in-one laptop became a project overnight, and now or ever, nobody liked carrying accessories, whether it was VGA, ethernet cables, etc., or, now the readers, USB-C adapters, the confusing USB-C cables, etc.!

Apple profited a lot by removing these ports - it is cheaper to have the current ports. The MacBooks had just one USB-C port that could charge - so that versatility of charging from either side spin went out the window. The cables are not standard all purpose, I have to remember which cable is basic and which can charge, etc.

And, they made the laptops thinner, less heat-efficient and fragile.

Then they raised the price of repair by modifying the architecture - dumb.

Let us not even get into the keyboard, screen, flexgate, ...

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

The point everyone protesting this change imposed on us is this - why the sudden switch when the accessories are not commonly used, and why remove the current ports when just changing the TB ports to USB-C would've done the trick?

Yes, change is painful and no one likes it - that is why it is done gradually. Cook the frog.

The very first time Apple introduces the USB-C ports, it removed all the existing ports! The all-in-one laptop became a project overnight, and now or ever, nobody liked carrying accessories, whether it was VGA, ethernet cables, etc., or, now the readers, USB-C adapters, the confusing USB-C cables, etc.!
T
Apple profited a lot by removing these ports - it is cheaper to have the current ports. The MacBooks had just one USB-C port that could charge - so that versatility of charging from either side spin went out the window. The cables are not standard all purpose, I have to remember which cable is basic and which can charge, etc.

And, they made the laptops thinner, less heat-efficient and fragile.

Then they raised the price of repair by modifying the architecture - dumb.

Let us not even get into the keyboard, screen, flexgate, ...

1. Apple hardly EVER sidesteps into new tech. When they decide to go a particular way, then that's what they do. And with USB-C/TB3, it was an EXCELLENT decision, IMHO!

2. As I have amply demonstrated above, Apple didn't REMOVE ANYTHING!!! They actually LIBERATED their Users! Seriously! Try to look farther than the end of your nose. I can choose to have 40 USB 3.0 Ports if I so choose; you can decide to have 3 Ethernet Ports, two HDMI Ports, and an SD Reader, someone else can have 2 USB-C Hard Drives/SSDs, 3 4k Monitors, and 5 USB 3.0 Ports; and the next person can have 2 5k Displays, etc., etc. YOU CANNOT DO THIS ANY OTHER WAY, PERIOD!!! Users should be kissing Apple's FEET!

3. Apple profited by doing the R&D to make this happen HOW?!?

4. Your other "points" are off-topic vis-a-vis USB-C/TB3.

 

[KPandian1]

As I have amply demonstrated above, Apple didn't REMOVE ANYTHING!!! They actually LIBERATED their Users! Seriously! Try to look farther than the end of your nose. I can choose to have 40 USB 3.0 Ports if I so choose; you can decide to have 3 Ethernet Ports, two HDMI Ports, and an SD Reader, someone else can have 2 USB-C Hard Drives/SSDs, 3 4k Monitors, and 5 USB 3.0 Ports; and the next person can have 2 5k Displays, etc., etc. YOU CANNOT DO THIS ANY OTHER WAY, PERIOD!!! Users should be kissing Apple's FEET!

3. Apple profited by doing the R&D to make this happen HOW?!?

4. Your other "points" are off-topic vis-a-vis USB-C/TB3.

Last year I bought a 2015 15" MacBook Pro because of everything I said earlier.

I can have half as much as all the connections you described - all Apple had to do was make the TB2 ports USB-C.

I will never be sitting in front of 3 monitors - I am the average user. I can still have them with my MacBook if I choose.

I already have all the other ports. I carry the same size power brick that the later MacBooks need - enough for me.

I don't want to assemble my laptop every time I open it - "some assembly required for each session" does not work for me.

What R&D led to the delicate darlings that cost so much more to buy and even more to own - accessories, repair "protection" fee, surface area of my desk's limited real estate, etc.?

Even Apple agrees that it removed those ports - for our benefit! $

The other "points" I mentioned without going into - they are also why people are angry with Apple's 2015 MacBooks and the 2016 MacBook lineup in entirety.

Apple itself is spending more on its warranty repairs - as a stock holder, I think that is idiotic.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Last year I bought a 2015 15" MacBook Pro because of everything I said earlier.

I can have half as much as all the connections you described - all Apple had to do was make the TB2 ports USB-C.

I will never be sitting in front of 3 monitors - I am the average user. I can still have them with my MacBook if I choose.

I already have all the other ports. I carry the same size power brick that the later MacBooks need - enough for me.

I don't want to assemble my laptop every time I open it - "some assembly required for each session" does not work for me.

What R&D led to the delicate darlings that cost so much more to buy and even more to own - accessories, repair "protection" fee, surface area of my desk's limited real estate, etc.?

Even Apple agrees that it removed those ports - for our benefit! $

The other "points" I mentioned without going into - they are also why people are angry with Apple's 2015 MacBooks and the 2016 MacBook lineup in entirety.

Apple itself is spending more on its warranty repairs - as a stock holder, I think that is idiotic.

Look: I get it.

I am typing this on my mid-2012 Non-Retina MacBook Pro that I purchased NEW in 2013, AFTER the 2013 Retina MBPs came out.

Why?

Because it was the LAST MBP to have the following:

1. Optical Drive.
2. FireWire (800) Port.

It also sports an Ethernet Port, 2 USB 3.0 Ports, and a MiniDP/TB2 (I think) Port, plus an SD Slot. I popped for the HiDPI screen, and it actually has MORE resolution than those first Retina Displays (!!!).

So, in short, I got this particular MBP because of its complement of Ports. It nicely spanned the old and new, IMHO. And since I am not rich, I had to "buy for the ages" (LOL); so that's what I did.

Since 2013, I have used:

FW800 Port: 1 time (WELL worth it, though!)
Optical Drive (DVD Burner): Less than 10 times, probably.
SD Slot: 1 time (just to make sure it worked).

So, with that in mind:

Now hear this: I would GLADLY trade all those HW Ports for the 4 USB-C/TB3 Ports and an inexpensive USB-C Dock!

Only the FW Port is a little annoying to come-by; but it can be done for about $70.

There's just something very good to be said for having 80 Gb/s of multifunction I/O (and USER-DETERMINANT I/O at that!) at your disposal.

And if your idea of "assembling your laptop" consists of plugging in ONE Dock-Cable (as opposed to plugging-in however-many FOREIGN ("unknown" not "your") cables DIRECTLY INTO PORTS ON YOUR LAPTOP'S LOGIC BOARD), then I think you seriously need to reconsider whether you'd rather that projector-that-has-a-ground-problem in some client's meeting room where you have to do a presentation, "take-out" the $60 USB-C Dock or the $700 MBP's Logic Board?

Think about it. It can, and does, happen. I'd rather have that extra layer of ESD-protection, thank you VERY much!

...and then there's the FLEXIBILITY. Really can't argue against THAT.

 

[Tozovac]

Get real.

A typical 6 to 10-port Multiport USB-C Dock (generally having 1-3 USB-A 3.0, GigE, HDMI 4k (sometimes VGA and/or DVI, too), SD/MicroSD(TF) Slot, sometimes Audio I/O (or just O), and a passthrough USB-C charging port), the kind that go for $40-$70 on Amazon, are generally about the size of a dollar-bill (about 6 in. x 3 in.), about 1/2" thick, and weigh a couple of ounces.

Quit exaggerating to try and "prove" your point. It's too easily disproven.

e.g.

https://www.amazon.com/TOTU-Ethernet-Delivery-Portable-Laptops/dp/B07FX2LW35/


$32 (3 USB 3.0 but no Ethernet)

https://www.amazon.com/HOGORE-Multi-port-Charging-Compatible-ChromeBook/dp/B07H49X1D8/


Here's the kitchen-sink (10 in 1) Dock for $70. You can even run the HDMI and VGA simultaneously (up to 1080p)...

https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-EKSA-Thunderbolt-Gigabit-Ethernet/dp/B07GYBMQKD/


...and here's a 10 in 1 Dock for under $50!!!

https://www.amazon.com/Hagibis-Gigabit-Ethernet-Charging-MacBook/dp/B07MZR8PDF/


$40...

https://www.amazon.com/HooToo-Premium-Adapter-Charging-Chromebook/dp/B019R9ILTG/


$20!!!

https://www.amazon.com/NOVOO-Adapter-Compatible-MateBook-Chromebook/dp/B075FQY5BN/


This $50 one purports to do 100W charging passthrough:

https://www.amazon.com/AUKEY-Adapter-Pass-Through-Charging-Chromebook/dp/B07J62G3JG/


And there's more, more, more!!!

So, you were saying?...

Point of the matter is that a single laptop built with uber-portability in mind that retains a smartly designed well-balanced assembly of frequently-used built-in ports and jacks is still a much better option for many than undoing some of that novel portability by requiring the user to now manage a bag or even handful/pocketful of adapters and docks to regain access to even the most basic of ubiquitous hardware. Even if Apple products came with a butler to carry docks and dongles and adapters for you, a laptop with even one dock attached or dangling from it just isn't that much fun to manage when moving about or using it on the couch.

Say say say all you want, if you don’t get it then aw shucks good for you.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Point of the matter is that a single laptop built with uber-portability in mind that retains a smartly designed well-balanced assembly of frequently-used built-in ports and jacks is still a much better option for many than undoing some of that novel portability by requiring the user to now manage a bag or even handful/pocketful of adapters and docks to regain access to even the most basic of ubiquitous hardware. Even if Apple products came with a butler to carry docks and dongles and adapters for you, a laptop just isn't that much fun to manage when using it on the couch.

Say say say all you want, if you don’t get it then aw shucks good for you.

I have amply demonstrated that most typical applications can be amply covered with ONE USB-C Dock.

Period. End of story.

 

[Tozovac]

I have amply demonstrated that most typical applications can be amply covered with ONE USB-C Dock.

Period. End of story.

And walking around the house using your portable laptop on the couch and various locations with even one said dock is a real PITA. Period.

 

[ipponrg]

I have amply demonstrated that most typical applications can be amply covered with ONE USB-C Dock.

Period. End of story.

I don't think carrying a dock demonstrates portability. Wasn't the point of a laptop to have a portable computer sit on your lap from anywhere (in or out of the house)?

 

[Doc69]

If 2019 turns out to give us a new replacement for the old 17” MacBook Pro, a new modular Mac
Pro, as well as a new Apple display, then for me, this will be the most exiting Mac year in almost a decade!

 

[badsimian]

The point everyone protesting this change imposed on us is this - why the sudden switch when the accessories are not commonly used, and why remove the current ports when just changing the TB ports to USB-C would've done the trick?

When the laptops first came out I would say it was fairly novel. But most decent Windows laptops have gone all in on USB-C/Thunderbolt. The Dell XPS 13 I am writing this on only has usb-c, my phone charges by usb-c. I am all for it. Flexibility of ports is an amazing thing. It would be madness to go backwards now. If only they would update the iPhones to follow suit. A single power adapter (I use the 13" MBP usb-c adapter) to power my laptop and phone is awesome. I travel with much much less stuff now compared to when I carried about a 15" 2013 Macbook pro with its wide array of ports that spend 95% of their time unused.

 

[theluggage]

IMHO. And since I am not rich, I had to "buy for the ages" (LOL); so that's what I did.

...and wasn't it nice that, in 2012/3 Apple at least offered you the option to buy an updated version of the classic MBP, with USB 3 and new processor/CPU - c.f. the 2016 solution where, if you weren't ready to join the all-USB-C club, your only option was the lowest-spec version of the 18-month old model (which didn't even have the latest processor generation when it was new) - oh, and they'd throw in a juicy price rise if you lived outside the US.

Part of the hate for the post-2016 MBPs, the MP cylinder, the 2018 Mac Mini and new MBA stems with the way that Apple let the preceding models get laughably out-of-date before replacing them.

FW800 Port: 1 time (WELL worth it, though!)
Optical Drive (DVD Burner): Less than 10 times, probably.

Well, yes, you're talking about devices that passed from ubiquitous into "legacy" mode during the lifetime of the computer. I've certainly used Firewire and optical more than once in the last 6 years although they're way past the point where fishing the adapter/drive out of a cupboard is a problem.

(...and, of course, you can always rip out the optical drive and replace it with a cheap 512GB SSD or 2TB of spinning rust rather than selling a kidney for a MBP with a 1-2TB SSD).

OTOH I've bought brand new stuff in the last year that uses USBA/Micro-b and while that works perfectly with a USB-C adapter, it doesn't gain any advantage from it - plus, on my desktop, I need more than 4 USB ports (of whatever flavour) and there's still no hub with more than 1-2 USB-C ports, so replacing all my device cables and banishing USB-A from my life simply isn't an option.

There's just something very good to be said for having 80 Gb/s of multifunction I/O (and USER-DETERMINANT I/O at that!) at your disposal.

What for? So you can connect 4 Samsung X5s, run benchmarks and brag about the peak sustained read rates? What are you going to do with that bandwidth on a MBP with a thermally-throttled mobile CPU/GPU?

Its like putting a 6000cc engine in a VW bug - all its going to do is win at Top Trumps when someone calls out "i/o bandwidth".

Meanwhile, a MBP with 2xTB3 ports + some USB-A and HDMI would still have more i/o bandwidth than competing PCs.

Think about it. It can, and does, happen. I'd rather have that extra layer of ESD-protection, thank you VERY much!

...until someone trips over the cable and your MBP takes a dirt nap because you didn't have MagSafe.... or you try to move the MBP and the whole weight/drag of that hub and half-a-dozen cables is concentrated on one motherboard socket... or you find out that the electrical isolation on that $60 USB-C hub isn't quite what you assumed it to be... and lets just hope that <a href="https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/4/10916264/usb-c-russian-roulette-power-cords">this problem</a> is now solved (if you pick out the cheapest USB-C products on Amazon/eBay to prove a point, don't count on it).

Other points you're missing, given that all the hubs you linked to were USB-C (or USB 3.1/PDC/DisplayPort Alt Mode over USB-C to be precise) not TB3:

- All the USB/Ethernet/SD devices on a USB C hub share a single USB 3.1 stream
- plug in a 4k@60Hz display and that drops to a single USB 2.0 stream (unless your GPU, USB-C controller, hub and display all support DP1.4 which, today, is almost certainly a 'no')

...so connecting even USB 3.1g1 devices directly to the MB gives significantly more bandwidth and lower latency than via a hub - and that's before you get into USB 3.1g2 which few, if any, USB-C hubs support (and only about 1 TB3 hub supports more than one g2 device).

 

[john123]

It will have proper ports- USB-C Thunderbolt 3 ports. The ports that do everything. I'm so freak'n tired of people whining about it - they're what is here now. They work fantastic. They have power. They have every modern connection with an adapter. I'm sorry your 15 year old game controller doesn't work without a cheap, passive adapter. But I don't care. This is what is now and going forward. Suck it up and grow up.

Keyboard, you have slightly more of a point on. It's still not going to be radically different. The new boards need some better control, but they feel fantastic to type on. There's nothing wrong with them operationally.

Matte screen is hard to find on any laptop. Whine to the manufacturers.

Performance especially on the new ones are fantastic. Just.. just give it up. THey're good machines, bront. And life goes on. If you can't move on, you'll get left behind.

Since apparently some people were triggered by my use of a pretty innocuous term previously, allow me to rephrase. I've highlighted the most problematic word choices above.

Apparently better tasting than the truth, which you don’t seem to like.

By all means, let's absolutely talk about truth.

Typing the word "fantastic" 3 times, unlike Beetlejuice, does not make it miraculously so. They current models are a sea of tradeoffs. I'm typing this right now on a 2014 15". I have a 2017 15" right beside me. It sits under my coffee table, unused over 99% of the time (no exaggeration). It's been there for over a year now.

I have the choice to use a 4.5 year old machine versus an almost-current one, and I choose to use the older one. What does that tell you?

And before someone goes on an ad hominem attack, check out what Guy Kawasaki posted just yesterday:
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6504001865544536064

"Suck it up and grow up" is neither mature nor helpful advice. (Incidentally, how is "Kool Aid" considered provocative while this isn't? Mind-boggling.)

The "truth" is that many other manufacturers have bothered to do the work that Apple won't, which is trying to strike a balance—something Apple was actually pretty good at for about a decade and a half. The "truth" is that lots of people think thinner is a lazy design principle.

You're welcome to like the current models. That is of course your prerogative. But it's silly to say that those of us who don't aren't engaged in the "truth." And if I see someone so passionate about a product that has clear and objective tradeoffs, then it is of course my prerogative to wonder why.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

And walking around the house using your portable laptop on the couch and various locations with even one said dock is a real PITA. Period.

Sure, if you regularly use your External Monitor, etc. on the couch.

So you really want to try and convince me that having "native legacy connectors" available would make it possible for you to plug in... What?!? in that situation???

Get real.

If you need something prosaic, like a USB stick or SD/MicroSD Card while on the couch (which is about the only practical thing someone would expect to be able to plug-in when "couch computing"), there are gadgets like this absolutely spectacular $20 USB-A/USB-C SD/MicroSD (TF) Card Reader/Writers, that are essentially the size of a typical USB Stick, and plug right into a USB-C Connector on the MBP, and then have a USB-A connector too, for those situations. Just plug in the SD/TF Card of your choice, and voila!

https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Memory-Adapter-U452-000-SD/dp/B079QHX99F/


This one (below) is USB-A on one end and USB-C on the other, and even has a clever built-in MicroUSB Adapter (the USB-A end Flips-up and reveals a MicroUSB inside!) for hooking up to horrible Android Phones and some Cameras (I guess?). For NINE whole dollars, it seems like a handy little gadget...

https://www.amazon.com/Reader-Micro-Adapter-Rusee-RS-MMC/dp/B07FSNYHNZ/

And there are about a dozen more variants on this same theme. All pretty cheap, and pretty darned cool, if you ask me.

For anything else in the USB-A world you want to plug in (e.g. an old-school USB Glucose Meter), just clip one of these handy $2 USB-A -> USB-C Adapters (see below) onto the end of the cable/device, and off you go. They are cheap enough (like 3 for $7), that you can throw a few in your computer bag/briefcase/purse/??? to handle ANY USB situation that might come up. NO DOCK REQUIRED!

https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Benfei-Compatible-MacBook-Samsung/dp/B07DNQ9FD9/

...and as with the Card-Writers above, there are several brands and variations on this theme (e.g. MicroUSB -> USB-C, USB-C Fem. to USB-A Male, etc.), that you can always get from "here" to "there" SIMPLY, CHEAPLY, AND WITH NO DOCK!!!

So, you see, the world is QUICKLY coming-up with pretty clever (AND CHEAP!!!) solutions for these newfangled USB-C connectors and the PRACTICAL needs of modern portable device-use.

And within the next few years, you'll find yourself needing these little helpers less and less, because the NEXT time you get a USB device, it will already BE equipped for USB-C, and then all the owners of USB-A-only laptops will be the ones pining for the fjords...

Time marches on. Get used to it. People should be PRAISING Apple, not VILLIFYING them, for being so forward-thinking in going all-in on USB-C. They "get it". Perhaps you should, too...

Your turn... Now what faux "objection" will you "gin-up" in a wan attempt to defend the indefensible?
[doublepost=1550767572][/doublepost]

I don't think carrying a dock demonstrates portability. Wasn't the point of a laptop to have a portable computer sit on your lap from anywhere (in or out of the house)?

I have addressed this in my Reply to Tozovac:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...y-gain-32gb-ram.2170247/page-17#post-27116781

 

[john123]

Sure, if you regularly use your External Monitor, etc. on the couch.

So you really want to try and convince me that having "native legacy connectors" available would make it possible for you to plug in... What?!? in that situation???

Get real.

If you need something prosaic, like a USB stick or SD/MicroSD Card while on the couch (which is about the only practical thing someone would expect to be able to plug-in when "couch computing"), there are gadgets like this absolutely spectacular $20 USB-A/USB-C SD/MicroSD (TF) Card Reader/Writers, that are essentially the size of a typical USB Stick, and plug right into a USB-C Connector on the MBP, and then have a USB-A connector too, for those situations. Just plug in the SD/TF Card of your choice, and voila!

https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Memory-Adapter-U452-000-SD/dp/B079QHX99F/


This one (below) is USB-A on one end and USB-C on the other, and even has a clever built-in MicroUSB Adapter (the USB-A end Flips-up and reveals a MicroUSB inside!) for hooking up to horrible Android Phones and some Cameras (I guess?). For NINE whole dollars, it seems like a handy little gadget...

https://www.amazon.com/Reader-Micro-Adapter-Rusee-RS-MMC/dp/B07FSNYHNZ/

And there are about a dozen more variants on this same theme. All pretty cheap, and pretty darned cool, if you ask me.

For anything else in the USB-A world you want to plug in (e.g. an old-school USB Glucose Meter), just clip one of these handy $2 USB-A -> USB-C Adapters (see below) onto the end of the cable/device, and off you go. They are cheap enough (like 3 for $7), that you can throw a few in your computer bag/briefcase/purse/??? to handle ANY USB situation that might come up. NO DOCK REQUIRED!

https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Benfei-Compatible-MacBook-Samsung/dp/B07DNQ9FD9/

...and as with the Card-Writers above, there are several brands and variations on this theme (e.g. MicroUSB -> USB-C, USB-C Fem. to USB-A Male, etc.), that you can always get from "here" to "there" SIMPLY, CHEAPLY, AND WITH NO DOCK!!!

So, you see, the world is QUICKLY coming-up with pretty clever (AND CHEAP!!!) solutions for these newfangled USB-C connectors and the PRACTICAL needs of modern portable device-use.

And within the next few years, you'll find yourself needing these little helpers less and less, because the NEXT time you get a USB device, it will already BE equipped for USB-C, and then all the owners of USB-A-only laptops will be the ones pining for the fjords...

Time marches on. Get used to it. People should be PRAISING Apple, not VILLIFYING them, for being so forward-thinking in going all-in on USB-C. They "get it". Perhaps you should, too...

Your turn... Now what faux "objection" will you "gin-up" in a wan attempt to defend the indefensible?

That's a lot of typing and a lot of links. And yet if you re-read just the one sentence of Tozovac's that you quoted, you'll see that you missed the point. So to reiterate it:

It's inconvenient. And it didn't have to be. There were design choices that would have let almost everyone have it all—subject to a very small increase in weight. Apple simply chose not to go that route. Unlike the subjective opinions on both sides, this is a fact, and it is therefore not in dispute.

But hey, if you want to keep calling people like Guy Kawasaki backward-thinking, knock yourself out!

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

OTOH I've bought brand new stuff in the last year that uses USBA/Micro-b and while that works perfectly with a USB-C adapter, it doesn't gain any advantage from it - plus, on my desktop, I need more than 4 USB ports (of whatever flavour) and there's still no hub with more than 1-2 USB-C ports, so replacing all my device cables and banishing USB-A from my life simply isn't an option.

I agree that there aren't any USB-C <-> USB-C HUBS that I can find; because they aren't needed yet. Most people have mostly USB-A peripherals, and so the current Hubs are USB-C on the "Host" side, and multiple USB-A ports (I've seen up to 9).

So, it's a process. Everyone is going through it, NOT JUST APPLE OWNERS!!!
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...and wasn't it nice that, in 2012/3 Apple at least offered you the option to buy an updated version of the classic MBP, with USB 3 and new processor/CPU - c.f. the 2016 solution where, if you weren't ready to join the all-USB-C club, your only option was the lowest-spec version of the 18-month old model (which didn't even have the latest processor generation when it was new) - oh, and they'd throw in a juicy price rise if you lived outside the US.

Part of the hate for the post-2016 MBPs, the MP cylinder, the 2018 Mac Mini and new MBA stems with the way that Apple let the preceding models get laughably out-of-date before replacing them.


Well, yes, you're talking about devices that passed from ubiquitous into "legacy" mode during the lifetime of the computer. I've certainly used Firewire and optical more than once in the last 6 years although they're way past the point where fishing the adapter/drive out of a cupboard is a problem.

(...and, of course, you can always rip out the optical drive and replace it with a cheap 512GB SSD or 2TB of spinning rust rather than selling a kidney for a MBP with a 1-2TB SSD).

OTOH I've bought brand new stuff in the last year that uses USBA/Micro-b and while that works perfectly with a USB-C adapter, it doesn't gain any advantage from it - plus, on my desktop, I need more than 4 USB ports (of whatever flavour) and there's still no hub with more than 1-2 USB-C ports, so replacing all my device cables and banishing USB-A from my life simply isn't an option.



What for? So you can connect 4 Samsung X5s, run benchmarks and brag about the peak sustained read rates? What are you going to do with that bandwidth on a MBP with a thermally-throttled mobile CPU/GPU?

Its like putting a 6000cc engine in a VW bug - all its going to do is win at Top Trumps when someone calls out "i/o bandwidth".

Meanwhile, a MBP with 2xTB3 ports + some USB-A and HDMI would still have more i/o bandwidth than competing PCs.



...until someone trips over the cable and your MBP takes a dirt nap because you didn't have MagSafe.... or you try to move the MBP and the whole weight/drag of that hub and half-a-dozen cables is concentrated on one motherboard socket... or you find out that the electrical isolation on that $60 USB-C hub isn't quite what you assumed it to be... and lets just hope that <a href="https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/4/10916264/usb-c-russian-roulette-power-cords">this problem</a> is now solved (if you pick out the cheapest USB-C products on Amazon/eBay to prove a point, don't count on it).

Other points you're missing, given that all the hubs you linked to were USB-C (or USB 3.1/PDC/DisplayPort Alt Mode over USB-C to be precise) not TB3:

- All the USB/Ethernet/SD devices on a USB C hub share a single USB 3.1 stream
- plug in a 4k@60Hz display and that drops to a single USB 2.0 stream (unless your GPU, USB-C controller, hub and display all support DP1.4 which, today, is almost certainly a 'no')

...so connecting even USB 3.1g1 devices directly to the MB gives significantly more bandwidth and lower latency than via a hub - and that's before you get into USB 3.1g2 which few, if any, USB-C hubs support (and only about 1 TB3 hub supports more than one g2 device).

I agree that you have to do due-diligence with USB-C and "TB3" Docks at this point. And a good heads-up on cheap "Mag-Safe" adapters/cables.

As far as the DP1.2 vs. 1.4 issue, if that is a problem, simply use one of the other USB-C ports to do your video, leaving one of the other USB-C Ports to handle your "USB 3.0" Data-Requirements. Or, get a TRUE TB3 Dock. AFAICT, in TB mode, you can theoretically get up to 40 Gb/s from any of the USB-C/TB3 connectors (yes, that is "shared" with the other connector on the same side of the MBP. Four connectors, two TB3 Controllers in the MBP, each one servicing TWO USB-C/TB3 connectors)). But even now, true TB3 docks are > $100. And TB3 STILL doesn't support DP1.4, AFAIK. But it DOES get around the "Shared USB 3.1" bandwidth issue.

Is everything perfect? No. But USB-C/TB3 is STILL FARRRRRR more Flexible and overall MUCH more powerful, than anything that has come before, IMHO.

 

[john123]

USB-C/TB3 is STILL FARRRRRR more Flexible and overall MUCH more powerful, than anything that has come before, IMHO.

Again, it didn't have to be an either/or choice.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

That's a lot of typing and a lot of links. And yet if you re-read just the one sentence of Tozovac's that you quoted, you'll see that you missed the point. So to reiterate it:

It's inconvenient. And it didn't have to be. There were design choices that would have let almost everyone have it all—subject to a very small increase in weight. Apple simply chose not to go that route. Unlike the subjective opinions on both sides, this is a fact, and it is therefore not in dispute.

But hey, if you want to keep calling people like Guy Kawasaki backward-thinking, knock yourself out!

Thanks. That post took over an hour to research and compose!

NOTHING, but NOTHING will satisfy EVERYONE. Not then, not now. But USB-C/TB3 is the closest thing we (as a planet) have come up with so far to address literally millions of disparate use-cases that these essentially non-configurable (as far as I/O choices go) things we call "laptops".

And if Guy Kawasaki (who has definitely fallen by the wayside for the past 20 years or so) can't see that either, then he has no business calling himself an Expert, Pundit, or his old handle "Apple Evangelist". Sorry.

The fact is, there are only SO many PCI-e "lanes" on the CPUs. That forms an "I/O Budget" that is not easily ignored or expanded. So, Apple COULD have WASTED the total available bandwidth available on those Lanes, by "trapping" some of it in maybe seldom-used legacy Ports, or THEY COULD LET THE USERs DECIDE how they wanted to "spend" that Bandwidth.

IMHO, they chose wisely. Sorry if you and Tozovac (and Guy) can't see that most obvious fact. But there it is.

 

[john123]

Thanks. That post took over an hour to research and compose!

NOTHING, but NOTHING will satisfy EVERYONE. Not then, not now. But USB-C/TB3 is the closest thing we (as a planet) have come up with so far to address literally millions of disparate use-cases that these essentially non-configurable (as far as I/O choices go) things we call "laptops".

And if Guy Kawasaki (who has definitely fallen by the wayside for the past 20 years or so) can't see that either, then he has no business calling himself an Expert, Pundit, or his old handle "Apple Evangelist". Sorry.

The fact is, there are only SO many PCI-e "lanes" on the CPUs. That forms an "I/O Budget" that is not easily ignored or expanded. So, Apple COULD have WASTED the total available bandwidth available on those Lanes, by "trapping" some of it in maybe seldom-used legacy Ports, or THEY COULD LET THE USERs DECIDE how they wanted to "spend" that Bandwidth.

IMHO, they chose wisely. Sorry if you and Tozovac (and Guy) can't see that most obvious fact. But there it is.

The fact (!) that you're calling an opinion a fact should speak volumes.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Again, it didn't have to be an either/or choice.

Yes it did; or any particular user runs the risk of wasted I/O POTENTIAL.

If Intel CPUs had twice the number of PCIe lanes, maybe. But they don't (yet).
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The fact (!) that you're calling an opinion a fact should speak volumes.

Which "Opinion" did I call a "Fact"?

That the number of PCIe lanes on any given CPU is FINITE? Or that the Product Engineers had to DEAL WITH that FINITE NUMBER?

 

[Tozovac]

Sure, if you regularly use your External Monitor, etc. on the couch.

So you really want to try and convince me that having "native legacy connectors" available would make it possible for you to plug in... What?!? in that situation???

Get real.

If you need something prosaic, like a USB stick or SD/MicroSD Card while on the couch (which is about the only practical thing someone would expect to be able to plug-in when "couch computing"), there are gadgets like this absolutely spectacular $20 USB-A/USB-C SD/MicroSD (TF) Card Reader/Writers, that are essentially the size of a typical USB Stick, and plug right into a USB-C Connector on the MBP, and then have a USB-A connector too, for those situations. Just plug in the SD/TF Card of your choice, and voila!

https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Memory-Adapter-U452-000-SD/dp/B079QHX99F/

This one (below) is USB-A on one end and USB-C on the other, and even has a clever built-in MicroUSB Adapter (the USB-A end Flips-up and reveals a MicroUSB inside!) for hooking up to horrible Android Phones and some Cameras (I guess?). For NINE whole dollars, it seems like a handy little gadget...

https://www.amazon.com/Reader-Micro-Adapter-Rusee-RS-MMC/dp/B07FSNYHNZ/

And there are about a dozen more variants on this same theme. All pretty cheap, and pretty darned cool, if you ask me.

For anything else in the USB-A world you want to plug in (e.g. an old-school USB Glucose Meter), just clip one of these handy $2 USB-A -> USB-C Adapters (see below) onto the end of the cable/device, and off you go. They are cheap enough (like 3 for $7), that you can throw a few in your computer bag/briefcase/purse/??? to handle ANY USB situation that might come up. NO DOCK REQUIRED!

https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Benfei-Compatible-MacBook-Samsung/dp/B07DNQ9FD9/

...and as with the Card-Writers above, there are several brands and variations on this theme (e.g. MicroUSB -> USB-C, USB-C Fem. to USB-A Male, etc.), that you can always get from "here" to "there" SIMPLY, CHEAPLY, AND WITH NO DOCK!!!

So, you see, the world is QUICKLY coming-up with pretty clever (AND CHEAP!!!) solutions for these newfangled USB-C connectors and the PRACTICAL needs of modern portable device-use.

And within the next few years, you'll find yourself needing these little helpers less and less, because the NEXT time you get a USB device, it will already BE equipped for USB-C, and then all the owners of USB-A-only laptops will be the ones pining for the fjords...

Time marches on. Get used to it. People should be PRAISING Apple, not VILLIFYING them, for being so forward-thinking in going all-in on USB-C. They "get it". Perhaps you should, too...

Your turn... Now what faux "objection" will you "gin-up" in a wan attempt to defend the indefensible?

Faux objection? Are you that comfortable dismissing others’ preferences that don’t agree with your own? Who do you think you are, Apple the Former Computer Company?

I often plug in things like a 4tb HD, an iPad using the duet app, my MagSafe charger when on the couch. I want to plug directly in and not have to watch and be gentle with a stick appendage port.

Or, I highly value my MBA’s built-in SDC slot which houses my flush-mounted jetdrive lite. I can leave it plugged in, even when I stash my laptop in my work bag. No adapter to keep track of and ensure I take it to work the next day.

The famous optical drive example... “Advancing away” from optical drives didn’t happen by their being banished from MacBooks; rather, it sped by having the easy-to-implement strategy already in place: iTunes software for managing digital music in place of toting around cds. An internet and WiFi for digital music and app downloads made it rather easy for a quick “obvious” transition.

Having infrastructure widely in place drove the conversion away from built-in hardware; much more palatable than the reverse of farcing a minimalist offering of built-in hardware as hostage to drive the Great Change, for which, one can’t help but feel it’s only a matter of time before Apple comes up with some other next big thing and forces our hand. As far as I know, Wi-Fi/online downloads of music and apps is still the same as it was 10 years ago. I could and still can listen to or download music or software at the local coffee shop without having to tote some workaround device.

The removal of hardware-based things like MagSafe, headphone jacks, usb-A and then having to buy, tote, and dangle something from your so-called all-in-one portable device just isn’t that palatable still for many. So far, print shops, libraries, work, my girlfriend’s house, hotels...none of them handout USB adapters like they offer WiFi. Time must march on but one particular one-size-fits-all way may not always be the best, especially as were heading towards the area of diminishing returns, in my opinion, as far as exploiting low hanging fruit computing optimization.

Know what’d likely satisfy me and you who are OK buying cheap, small, easy to get adapter workarounds? For a true genius designer at Apple to get that the usage experience is more than forced minimalist fashion at the expense of flexible, powerful, convenient function....that compactness of design and “powerful portability” is more than just thickness and weight. How about instead ports/jacks that insert flush into the MacBook. Modular, flexible ports. Then I can choose if I want to travel/work portably with built-in dangling-dongle-free MagSafe, usb A/C, or SDC ports (which I happen to find extremely useful to counter Apple’s closed-minded non-easily/cheaply upgradable SSD’s). Apple thinks the world no longer values MagSafe, headphone jacks, or USB-A? Let us decide if we’re willing to stay such cavemen.

I’ve freely stated many times before, I find it fascinating to watch Jony Ive and Apple constantly remove or Uber-minimalize at least something every year, seemingly regardless of the bigger-picture functional/flexibility impacts. When will they reach a point where the only thing left to remove or change for the sake of change is to remove something like the Escape key? Maybe the Q key? Maybe a keyboardless keyboard (think: microwave oven-like touch keyboard).

Like everything, there’s a balance, and there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Unfortunately, we still prefer Apple hardware, where their credo is that offering less is more and there’s only one way to do things, their way, which buyers hopefully accept.

 

[john123]

Yes it did; or any particular user runs the risk of wasted I/O POTENTIAL.

If Intel CPUs had twice the number of PCIe lanes, maybe. But they don't (yet).

The impact for the vast majority of users would not be that large. There are both private and public use case studies. Many manufacturers have done this exact same combo. You act like it would massively gimp performance and everyone would be suffering. That's simply not supported.

Here's a winning ports config — at 4.4 pounds too: https://www8.hp.com/us/en/campaigns/spectrex360/overview.html

Which "Opinion" did I call a "Fact"?

Here. I even bolded it for ya!

IMHO, they chose wisely. Sorry if you and Tozovac (and Guy) can't see that most obvious fact. But there it is.

Unless you're saying that it's a fact that you have an opinion. In which case:
[doublepost=1550771008][/doublepost]

Faux objection? Are you that comfortable dismissing others’ preferences that don’t agree with your own? Who do you think you are, Apple the Former Computer Company?

The answer to your question clearly seems to be "yes." We've had a sea of "get over it" responses just in this thread alone. Gotta love the people who think the best choice for them personally is the best choice for all people.