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2 Button Mouse?
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Steve Jobs = modern day Henry Ford
SJ --- You can order any mouse so long as it has only one button
HF -- You can have the Model T in any color so long as it's black
SJ --- You can order any mouse so long as it has only one button
HF -- You can have the Model T in any color so long as it's black
Re: Moron!
Just because you can't understand it doesn't make it false. And do you think everyone in the country is under 30? I started using a computer with a mouse in college. And I am not old.
"All public opinion" apparently means (to you), "everyone smart enough and involved enough in the Macintosh community to be present at online computer discussions."
Lots and lots of people don't use contextual menus and can't really grasp the concept. And they certainly can't grasp multiple buttons. These are people who are afraid of their VCR's but really want to use a computer anyway because of the benefits it brings. There are good reasons. Just because you don't personally approve of them does not negate their existence.
Just because you can't understand it doesn't make it false. And do you think everyone in the country is under 30? I started using a computer with a mouse in college. And I am not old.
"All public opinion" apparently means (to you), "everyone smart enough and involved enough in the Macintosh community to be present at online computer discussions."
Lots and lots of people don't use contextual menus and can't really grasp the concept. And they certainly can't grasp multiple buttons. These are people who are afraid of their VCR's but really want to use a computer anyway because of the benefits it brings. There are good reasons. Just because you don't personally approve of them does not negate their existence.
simX
macrumors 6502a
Hm. Let's see. Steve Jobs founds Apple. Steve Jobs gets ousted. Steve Jobs founds NeXT. NEXT MAKES COMPUTER WITH A MOUSE THAT HAS TWO BUTTONS. Steve Jobs returns to Apple. Apple doesn't make two button mice. Idiotic Apple users who think for some reason that Apple needs to make two-button mice get mad at... Steve Jobs.
Talk about a failure to put two and two together. 🙄
Source: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=277
(Oh, and if you're going to make the argument that Apple "tramples" third-party manufacturers, the only reasonable example you can use is with Sherlock 3 and Watson. There's a *REASON* why iTunes is so much more popular than Audion. There's a *REASON* why iPhoto is so much more popular than something like Adobe PhotoDeluxe. And no, it's not because they're bundled with the computer. It's because they're better. OMG WHAT A CONCEPT! 🙄 )
Talk about a failure to put two and two together. 🙄
Source: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=277
(Oh, and if you're going to make the argument that Apple "tramples" third-party manufacturers, the only reasonable example you can use is with Sherlock 3 and Watson. There's a *REASON* why iTunes is so much more popular than Audion. There's a *REASON* why iPhoto is so much more popular than something like Adobe PhotoDeluxe. And no, it's not because they're bundled with the computer. It's because they're better. OMG WHAT A CONCEPT! 🙄 )
Rustus Maximus
macrumors 6502
Hmmmm...to heck with four models...how about FOUR BUTTONS?? Huh? Huuuuh?
ONE BIG SUPER MOUSE! Yeaaahh!!
We'll include a built-in joystick and steering wheel for all those gamers whose needs aren't met by the standard one button Apple mouse. Oh, and let's not forget about the scroll wheel, we'll jam that inbetween buttons 1 and 2. Plus we'll make it both wireless annndddd wired. With a retractable cord! Yeah! But what about those people who want to use a stylus or touchpad instead? Hmmmmm...well, we'll stick the stylus on the right side and put the touchpad under the palm area and...
No I can't, but as you mention you can guage the passion of many, many posters on online forums (here, MacCentral, Slashdot etc) of their strong desire to have a multiple button (perhaps even scrolling) Apple-branded mouse. I challenge you or anyone else to start an online petition and I'm certain the response will be overwhelming. We live in a capitalist economy and Apple's goal should be to capitalize on demand. Sure you can produce a one button mouse but why make people PAY for a one button mouse with a system purchase and then have to buy another kludge-like device from a 3rd party manufacturer. This is called being insensitive to customer needs in my book.
This is a very biased sampling though.
I guarentee that 90+% of people in the world don't know the difference between RAM and Hard Drive storage.
Imagine going to a grocery store and asking random people if they want Apple to ship a two button mouse, and I bet you get a lot of blank stares.
arn
Software Companies regularly ask potential customers to submit their manifestations of interest for a mac version of software (i.e. Autocad) which they are contemplating to port to the Mac....why couldn't Apple set up a similar feedback e mail but for mice...
Which is why it is odd that computer ads, including Apple's print-magazine ads, are full of buzzwords that make sense to techies but not to most people reading the ads. We are worrying about 801.11g vs. 801.11b and how important Level 3 cache is, while people are buying computers because they like the color of the case or because they like the sound of the words "Airport Extreme".
Two questions on the mouse issue:
(1) When Steve says "over my dead body", is it based on gut instinct as it sounds or has there been any real market research by Apple or anyone else?
(2) Wouldn't everyone be happy if Apple let you delete the mouse from a custom order and order a third-party mouse instead? Novices would take the default and prosumers and anyone else who wanted a two-button/scrollwheel mouse could have it instead, without paying for the Apple mouse. Apple could still claim "simplicity" and everyone would have the mouse features they wanted. It sounds so simple, but they aren't doing it. What am I missing?
So much anger!
First off, arn, thanks for always being a voice of reason on here. It's amazing how passionate people get both ways...
This topic has been argued over and over again. I don't think this is Steve Jobs'doing at all -- as was already posted on this board, NeXT DID use multi-button mice. I'd seriously doubt that Steve is personally opposed to them, which doesn't give much credibility to this (albeit page 2) article posting.
At any rate, as a HCI major, I feel strongly for the argument of a one-button mouse by default, although I'd certainly not be against differemt options. Let's look at this from a UI perspective, and not from a "my grandma can't use 2 buttons":
2 BUTTON MICE LEAD TO BAD UI DESIGN:
This is inherent in windows software design. They assume all users will have 2 button mice, so you often have commands in contextual menus that don't exist elsewhere. This is simply a horrible idea. I know Apple's UI Guidelines say not to do this, but since when have all companies followed all of Apple's UI guidelines? Fact is, if they know people will have 2 button mice, they'll get lazy and we'll end up with programs using contextual menus instead of offering better UI techniques.
Now that argument applies only to saying that Apple shouldn't stop selling one-button mice, but doesn't address the point that Apple could offer an option on mice. Now here's the problem with that:
PROBLEMS WITH OFFERING THE OPTION:
Apple can either:
1. Give you a 1-button mouse with the computer, but offer a 2-button for sale seperately.
2. Let you choose online in BTO configurations.
3. Allow you to "delete" the mouse from your order.
Problem with option 1: People will be pissed that they have to fork over extra money to Apple for a second mouse, and this offers few advantages to APple over allowing you to choose a 3rd party mouse.
Problem with option 2: Inventory. It would be virtually impossible for retail stores (including Apple authorized resllers AND Apple Stores) to know what percentage of users will buy each. This would make an inventory nightmare, so APple could choose to only sell them as BTO on the online Apple STore. This will infuriate resellers, as well as cost Apple extra money, which is inherent with every BTO order. I'd rather save the extra $50 it might cost Apple and buy a 3rd party mouse.
Problem with option 3: Much like the BTO issue of problem 2, since the mouse is shipped *with* the computer, you still suffer from reseller issues as well as added cost for Apple to *remove* the mouse from your custom order. Apple could just start shipping all units without mice and require and extra purchase, but you KNOW people would complain about how Macs don't even ship with mice.
Basically, my point is, I don't see a good solution here. Providing the option, in theory, is a good ideam but, as Apple found with multi-colored iMacs, the inventory maintenance and guessing on demand is a nightmare. This would make the point for either shipping all of one kind of mouse (either all one-button or all two-button) and, as I pointed out above, ut seems to make sense, froim a UI standpoint, to choose 1-button, and allow consumers the option of purchasing their own 2-button mouse.
That said, Apple could always come up with some ingenious method of combining one and two-button mice into one individual mouse with a software setting of some kind... We'll just have to wait6 and see on that, but I don't think it's anything worth threatening to move to PC or arguing that people won't switch to Mac because of the one-button mouse. I think, if you did some researcch, you'd find that, despite some people using that as an excuse, that isn't the real reason they're not buying a Mac.
First off, arn, thanks for always being a voice of reason on here. It's amazing how passionate people get both ways...
This topic has been argued over and over again. I don't think this is Steve Jobs'doing at all -- as was already posted on this board, NeXT DID use multi-button mice. I'd seriously doubt that Steve is personally opposed to them, which doesn't give much credibility to this (albeit page 2) article posting.
At any rate, as a HCI major, I feel strongly for the argument of a one-button mouse by default, although I'd certainly not be against differemt options. Let's look at this from a UI perspective, and not from a "my grandma can't use 2 buttons":
2 BUTTON MICE LEAD TO BAD UI DESIGN:
This is inherent in windows software design. They assume all users will have 2 button mice, so you often have commands in contextual menus that don't exist elsewhere. This is simply a horrible idea. I know Apple's UI Guidelines say not to do this, but since when have all companies followed all of Apple's UI guidelines? Fact is, if they know people will have 2 button mice, they'll get lazy and we'll end up with programs using contextual menus instead of offering better UI techniques.
Now that argument applies only to saying that Apple shouldn't stop selling one-button mice, but doesn't address the point that Apple could offer an option on mice. Now here's the problem with that:
PROBLEMS WITH OFFERING THE OPTION:
Apple can either:
1. Give you a 1-button mouse with the computer, but offer a 2-button for sale seperately.
2. Let you choose online in BTO configurations.
3. Allow you to "delete" the mouse from your order.
Problem with option 1: People will be pissed that they have to fork over extra money to Apple for a second mouse, and this offers few advantages to APple over allowing you to choose a 3rd party mouse.
Problem with option 2: Inventory. It would be virtually impossible for retail stores (including Apple authorized resllers AND Apple Stores) to know what percentage of users will buy each. This would make an inventory nightmare, so APple could choose to only sell them as BTO on the online Apple STore. This will infuriate resellers, as well as cost Apple extra money, which is inherent with every BTO order. I'd rather save the extra $50 it might cost Apple and buy a 3rd party mouse.
Problem with option 3: Much like the BTO issue of problem 2, since the mouse is shipped *with* the computer, you still suffer from reseller issues as well as added cost for Apple to *remove* the mouse from your custom order. Apple could just start shipping all units without mice and require and extra purchase, but you KNOW people would complain about how Macs don't even ship with mice.
Basically, my point is, I don't see a good solution here. Providing the option, in theory, is a good ideam but, as Apple found with multi-colored iMacs, the inventory maintenance and guessing on demand is a nightmare. This would make the point for either shipping all of one kind of mouse (either all one-button or all two-button) and, as I pointed out above, ut seems to make sense, froim a UI standpoint, to choose 1-button, and allow consumers the option of purchasing their own 2-button mouse.
That said, Apple could always come up with some ingenious method of combining one and two-button mice into one individual mouse with a software setting of some kind... We'll just have to wait6 and see on that, but I don't think it's anything worth threatening to move to PC or arguing that people won't switch to Mac because of the one-button mouse. I think, if you did some researcch, you'd find that, despite some people using that as an excuse, that isn't the real reason they're not buying a Mac.
Why?
Why would I want to give up using both hands and a sexy Apple mouse to utilize contextual menus, as opposed to using an ugly mouse that will do the same with just one hand.
Why would I want to give up using both hands and a sexy Apple mouse to utilize contextual menus, as opposed to using an ugly mouse that will do the same with just one hand.
Re: such a non-issue
Uhhh excuse me....Apple should get over it...we pay the bucks remember ?
I hate posts that somehow insinuate that we the paying customers are at fault or too finicky.....repeat after me: THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT !!!
Choice is good...absence of choice is bad...what's so hard about that
Uhhh excuse me....Apple should get over it...we pay the bucks remember ?
I hate posts that somehow insinuate that we the paying customers are at fault or too finicky.....repeat after me: THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT !!!
Choice is good...absence of choice is bad...what's so hard about that
sonofslim
macrumors 6502a
i posted this under another thread, before i saw this one. (so i'll just repeat myself here.)
this was posted today over at As the Apple Turns:
there's much more to it, and i suggest you go and check it out. he makes some really good points, in my opinion.
i, for one, must have my two buttons and scroll wheel and bling-bling 17mm rims on my tricked out drop-top mouse, but i can't argue with the 1-button logic after reading this.
this was posted today over at As the Apple Turns:
there's much more to it, and i suggest you go and check it out. he makes some really good points, in my opinion.
i, for one, must have my two buttons and scroll wheel and bling-bling 17mm rims on my tricked out drop-top mouse, but i can't argue with the 1-button logic after reading this.
Re: Re: such a non-issue
Not always true. Too many choices can be confusing. Even a couple choices can be daunting for people who aren't equipped to answer the question.
Remember the fiasco of the mid-90's for Apple? Want more HD space? It's a totally different model!!
Not always true. Too many choices can be confusing. Even a couple choices can be daunting for people who aren't equipped to answer the question.
Remember the fiasco of the mid-90's for Apple? Want more HD space? It's a totally different model!!
Re: Re: Re: such a non-issue
I can't believe that the vast majority of people who are against 2 btton Apple-branded mice seem to think that the majority of Apple's customers are total morons and can't adapt.....
I can't believe that the vast majority of people who are against 2 btton Apple-branded mice seem to think that the majority of Apple's customers are total morons and can't adapt.....
Marble
macrumors 6502a
After having just watched a poor professor struggle in front of his class with the Wintel box and its two-button mouse (he kept clicking the right button accidentally, and bringing up menus that confused him even more), I am fairly comfortable that Apple has a simple way of doing things, with more complex options open to everyone. Not all Mac users are as quick to learn and adapt as us youths, or as demanding as you professional computer users.
I have never needed two buttons for my work, though I have found them to be convenient, they are certainly not essential. If you want 120GBs of space, buy a 120GB hard drive. If you want a two-button mouse, buy a two-buttom mouse. For goodness sake, they're both just frivolty to the beginning user.
I have never needed two buttons for my work, though I have found them to be convenient, they are certainly not essential. If you want 120GBs of space, buy a 120GB hard drive. If you want a two-button mouse, buy a two-buttom mouse. For goodness sake, they're both just frivolty to the beginning user.
Let me understand your logic....Apple should cater to the lowest common denominator (beginners) and force people to pay for one button mice on even pro systems ? Brilliant
3 buttons
I can't believe anyone is sticking up for Apple on this one.
Apple spends all this money on these beautiful keyboards and mice that match the computer, only to make them useless by excluding the right button and the scroll wheel/button. Smart browsers like Mozilla are now middle button smart. The revolution is coming. Apple missed the boat with right button, now they are missing the boat with the middle button.
My company just bought 20 new Macs and now we have to spend and extra $400 on 2 button mice, that look like ****e. All I want is the choice to be able to get a 3 button wheel mouse that matches my computer. Is that too much to ask???? No, it isn't. Part of the reason we like Mac is because of the good looks, I can't believe so many people are saying "just go out and buy a $20 mouse" Form is only as good as function. And if my mom, the worlds most incompetent computer user (she still doesn't understand files and folders) loves the scroll wheel, then everyone can easily understand and use the scroll we. Steve is wrong and I hope No one buys that stupid wireless mouse. For gods sake apple is so protective of their one button mouse you'd almost think the invented it. In fact, I bet Steve Jobs really does think he invented it.
I can't believe anyone is sticking up for Apple on this one.
Apple spends all this money on these beautiful keyboards and mice that match the computer, only to make them useless by excluding the right button and the scroll wheel/button. Smart browsers like Mozilla are now middle button smart. The revolution is coming. Apple missed the boat with right button, now they are missing the boat with the middle button.
My company just bought 20 new Macs and now we have to spend and extra $400 on 2 button mice, that look like ****e. All I want is the choice to be able to get a 3 button wheel mouse that matches my computer. Is that too much to ask???? No, it isn't. Part of the reason we like Mac is because of the good looks, I can't believe so many people are saying "just go out and buy a $20 mouse" Form is only as good as function. And if my mom, the worlds most incompetent computer user (she still doesn't understand files and folders) loves the scroll wheel, then everyone can easily understand and use the scroll we. Steve is wrong and I hope No one buys that stupid wireless mouse. For gods sake apple is so protective of their one button mouse you'd almost think the invented it. In fact, I bet Steve Jobs really does think he invented it.
Thanks, reedm007. I understand the inventory issue, but this doesn't stop Apple from letting you delete a modem, for example, from a custom order. I doubt the brick and mortar stores stock Power Macs with and without modems for the reasons you describe. Like modems, mice are cheap, but some people will complain about paying for them if they don't want them. I don't see why letting you custom order a different mouse online wouldn't be just as easy as letting you include or exclude the modem.