thats pretty cool... but o well i like my logitech basic 2 button scroll wheel mouse. perfect for games..... sorta
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2 Button Mouse?
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Re: Re: So much anger!
Sure, I'll show you. Click the link. It usually downloads if it's something you want to download. If not, go to File --> Save As... after clicking the link. See? It's in there without using a contextual menu. Or, you can just option-click on a link.
For the "open link in new tab", that's easy. Just command-click on the link. I've been doing that ever since Safari came out (with my one-button mouse, hint hint hint). And no, there actually IS visual input. Turn on the status bar (if you haven't already), and hover over a link with the command key held down. It says "Open 'HTTP_address_here' in a new tab". It tells you EXACTLY what is going to happen. Try that with other key combos (option, option-command): the status bar always shows you what is going to take place.
Yes, contextual menus are very convenient, which is why Apple added them back in Mac OS 8 and has retained them in Mac OS X. But the fact remains that many users don't use contextual menus, so there should ALWAYS be some other way to access the functions. Not doing so is bad design of a program. That doesn't mean that these alternatives are more convenient than the contextual menu -- they're probably not. But they need to exist.
While your counterpoints to the other arguments may be valid, what you say here doesn't hold water at all. Having two-button mice standard WILL degrade the user experience on the Mac, and Apple knows this. This is the single most important reason why Apple should never ship a multi-button mouse standard on a Mac (and hopefully they never will).
Sure, I'll show you. Click the link. It usually downloads if it's something you want to download. If not, go to File --> Save As... after clicking the link. See? It's in there without using a contextual menu. Or, you can just option-click on a link.
For the "open link in new tab", that's easy. Just command-click on the link. I've been doing that ever since Safari came out (with my one-button mouse, hint hint hint). And no, there actually IS visual input. Turn on the status bar (if you haven't already), and hover over a link with the command key held down. It says "Open 'HTTP_address_here' in a new tab". It tells you EXACTLY what is going to happen. Try that with other key combos (option, option-command): the status bar always shows you what is going to take place.
Yes, contextual menus are very convenient, which is why Apple added them back in Mac OS 8 and has retained them in Mac OS X. But the fact remains that many users don't use contextual menus, so there should ALWAYS be some other way to access the functions. Not doing so is bad design of a program. That doesn't mean that these alternatives are more convenient than the contextual menu -- they're probably not. But they need to exist.
While your counterpoints to the other arguments may be valid, what you say here doesn't hold water at all. Having two-button mice standard WILL degrade the user experience on the Mac, and Apple knows this. This is the single most important reason why Apple should never ship a multi-button mouse standard on a Mac (and hopefully they never will).
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but according to Dante's hell, it is indeed frozen over...so does that mean 2 button mice (or mouses) are coming? 
On a similar note, you can get a multi-button mouse *anywhere* for *any* price range, so I don't see why so many people get so up in arms about it. Just go out and invest in a nice Logitech or Kensington mouse. There are some pretty nice ones out there to choose from.
On a similar note, you can get a multi-button mouse *anywhere* for *any* price range, so I don't see why so many people get so up in arms about it. Just go out and invest in a nice Logitech or Kensington mouse. There are some pretty nice ones out there to choose from.
Re: Re: such a non-issue
What if Apple stated that the Keyboard and mouse were complementary items, provided foc with every desktop system?
Would you feel better??
There is choice. Apple chooses to provide a single button mouse, if yuo want a diff mouse there are choices avilable, from a multitude of vendors.
What if Apple stated that the Keyboard and mouse were complementary items, provided foc with every desktop system?
Would you feel better??
isn't there a city somewhere in the u.s called hell? i think sometime in the spring it started to snow does that count?
Re: 2 Button Mouse?
LOL!!
Oh well, I'm perfectly happy with my Microsoft [GASP!!!] Wheel Mouse Optical.
i_b_joshua
LOL!!
Oh well, I'm perfectly happy with my Microsoft [GASP!!!] Wheel Mouse Optical.
i_b_joshua
Re: 2 Button Mouse?
Aaah, this is the best news from Apple I heard in a long time. It's satisfying to know that the people at Apple have the same ideals as me (at least concerning mouse buttons)
Aaah, this is the best news from Apple I heard in a long time. It's satisfying to know that the people at Apple have the same ideals as me (at least concerning mouse buttons)
Re: Re: Re: such a non-issue
On my dime......if I didn't have to pay for the damn contraption I wouldn't mind....I don't want it so I shouldn't have to subsidize the lowest common denominator (beginners) which Apple seems to believe (insultingly so IMHO) are incapable of learning a two button mouse....please have a little higher opinion of your users Apple
On my dime......if I didn't have to pay for the damn contraption I wouldn't mind....I don't want it so I shouldn't have to subsidize the lowest common denominator (beginners) which Apple seems to believe (insultingly so IMHO) are incapable of learning a two button mouse....please have a little higher opinion of your users Apple
Re: Re: Re: Re: such a non-issue
Well, it seems that many of the people in this forum aren't as up in arms as you are because of Apple's wise decision to stick with one-button mice... I don't want to listen to forum whiners who seem to believe (insultingly so IMHO) that everybody should learn complicated contraptions.
Well, it seems that many of the people in this forum aren't as up in arms as you are because of Apple's wise decision to stick with one-button mice... I don't want to listen to forum whiners who seem to believe (insultingly so IMHO) that everybody should learn complicated contraptions.
Re: 3 buttons
While I can understand to an extent why people like 2 button mice, and I can certainly understand why people like scroll wheels (News Flash: I do too), I cannot understand why in the world people would want a three button mouse.
"Hey mom, I can copy, paste, and click with one hand! YEA!"
Um, no.
Hey, if Apple is missing the "Three Button Mouse Revolution", why haven't I ever seen a Mac application that can use three buttons? And why haven't I seen more than two Windows applications that can use that piece of s--- third button?
Hunh. His Mighty Steveness is wrong, eh? If "your company" so desperatally needs three button mice, I think they should be able to fork over the $400. What's that, you say? They don't have enough money? Too damn bad. How bout you just deal and hit command when you click!
::GASP:: New concept! ::GASP::
While I can understand to an extent why people like 2 button mice, and I can certainly understand why people like scroll wheels (News Flash: I do too), I cannot understand why in the world people would want a three button mouse.
"Hey mom, I can copy, paste, and click with one hand! YEA!"
Um, no.
Hey, if Apple is missing the "Three Button Mouse Revolution", why haven't I ever seen a Mac application that can use three buttons? And why haven't I seen more than two Windows applications that can use that piece of s--- third button?
Hunh. His Mighty Steveness is wrong, eh? If "your company" so desperatally needs three button mice, I think they should be able to fork over the $400. What's that, you say? They don't have enough money? Too damn bad. How bout you just deal and hit command when you click!
::GASP:: New concept! ::GASP::
The bottom line is, I'd love to buy an apple mouse if it suited my needs. I'd like a 4 button mouse with a forward and back key for browsing the web as well as the scroll wheel. I've become so accustomed to using them.
If Apple doesn't feel it is worth their time to design one to get my $59, then I'll go buy one from Logitech or MS. I'd pay more to have an apple branded mouse that matched my computer, but it is no skin off my nose, really. I've already paid them for the new G5, guess the $59 mouse is not a biggie.
The only reason I can see to even sell a 1 button mouse is for small children. There aren't any other 1 button mice readily available, so apple is filling a nice little niche there, just like their computers.
If Apple doesn't feel it is worth their time to design one to get my $59, then I'll go buy one from Logitech or MS. I'd pay more to have an apple branded mouse that matched my computer, but it is no skin off my nose, really. I've already paid them for the new G5, guess the $59 mouse is not a biggie.
The only reason I can see to even sell a 1 button mouse is for small children. There aren't any other 1 button mice readily available, so apple is filling a nice little niche there, just like their computers.
the mouse is not the issue
one button mouse, two button, i don't care. if i want a nice 2 button mouse to match my apple system, i'll buy one. not for $20, because Apple wouldn't charge $20 for a two button mouse. i bet i could buy a pretty nice mouse for the $80 apple would charge...and sell the one they gave me with my desktop on eBay, as others have done.
the real issue for me is on the laptops. i wish apple would split their button down the middle, and it could be pre-set to have each button act the same. advanced users could change the settings to make it a true 2-button...right now, that's not an option.
and before anyone asks, yes, i am aware i can plug a mouse into my laptop. and no, i don't want to bring a mouse on the plane with the laptop barely fits on the tray in the first place.
one button mouse, two button, i don't care. if i want a nice 2 button mouse to match my apple system, i'll buy one. not for $20, because Apple wouldn't charge $20 for a two button mouse. i bet i could buy a pretty nice mouse for the $80 apple would charge...and sell the one they gave me with my desktop on eBay, as others have done.
the real issue for me is on the laptops. i wish apple would split their button down the middle, and it could be pre-set to have each button act the same. advanced users could change the settings to make it a true 2-button...right now, that's not an option.
and before anyone asks, yes, i am aware i can plug a mouse into my laptop. and no, i don't want to bring a mouse on the plane with the laptop barely fits on the tray in the first place.
Even Gates learned the merits of a GUI
Even Bill Gates learned the merits of a GUI.
OK. OK. He stole it from Apple.
Still, maybe it's time Apple returned the favor and gave its users a 2-button mouse.
Not only is control-click nonintuitive, it's dysfunctional.
The point of the mouse is to streamline navigation through the GUI.
The point of the keyboard is to enter type.
Not vice versa -- or some odd combination.
Let the mouse be the mouse.
Let the keyboard be the keyboard.
C'mon, Steve. It's just good karma.
Put an end to the co-dependency.
Even Bill Gates learned the merits of a GUI.
OK. OK. He stole it from Apple.
Still, maybe it's time Apple returned the favor and gave its users a 2-button mouse.
Not only is control-click nonintuitive, it's dysfunctional.
The point of the mouse is to streamline navigation through the GUI.
The point of the keyboard is to enter type.
Not vice versa -- or some odd combination.
Let the mouse be the mouse.
Let the keyboard be the keyboard.
C'mon, Steve. It's just good karma.
Put an end to the co-dependency.
Re: Re: 3 buttons
Safari uses both middle-click and right-click. Middle clicking a link opens it in a new tab, very convinient. FWIW, neither Sony nor DELL ship with laser-guided mouse (which sucks because you have to go an buy an extra or order one with your comp)...so I think it could be reversed..why doesn't Dell or Sony ship with any laser mice by default?? It seems that both of them could learn from each other, more buttons to apple and better quality to Dell/Sony et all...
Actually...
Safari uses both middle-click and right-click. Middle clicking a link opens it in a new tab, very convinient. FWIW, neither Sony nor DELL ship with laser-guided mouse (which sucks because you have to go an buy an extra or order one with your comp)...so I think it could be reversed..why doesn't Dell or Sony ship with any laser mice by default?? It seems that both of them could learn from each other, more buttons to apple and better quality to Dell/Sony et all...
end this thread!!!
http://www.macally.com/spec/usb/input_device/icemousejr.html
There is your matching 2 button/scroll wheel mouse. $24 at Macwarehouse.
Go buy it and shut up, all of you.
If you don't get the reasons for the one button mouse now, you never will.
Apples comps are built to perform your basic needs out of the box. If iPhoto isn't enough for you-go get Photoshop. If iMovie isn't enough for you- go get Final Cut. If Mail.app isn't enough for you - go buy Entourage. If your one button mouse isn't enough for you - go buy a six button trackball/lazer pointer/touch screen...
Just quit asking Apple to do everything for you.
http://www.macally.com/spec/usb/input_device/icemousejr.html
There is your matching 2 button/scroll wheel mouse. $24 at Macwarehouse.
Go buy it and shut up, all of you.
If you don't get the reasons for the one button mouse now, you never will.
Apples comps are built to perform your basic needs out of the box. If iPhoto isn't enough for you-go get Photoshop. If iMovie isn't enough for you- go get Final Cut. If Mail.app isn't enough for you - go buy Entourage. If your one button mouse isn't enough for you - go buy a six button trackball/lazer pointer/touch screen...
Just quit asking Apple to do everything for you.
1 button is good for laptop
I have used several pc laptops and was skeptical about the mac 1 button mouse culture; however, after owning a powerbook for about a year I must say I am very happy with the single large button all the way across the bottom of the track pad. The advantage of this is that I can use either hand (or either thumb) to track with while the other can clumsily tap the over sized button. On the PC's I would have to constantly think about which button I was going to hit or need to hit, often this involved crossing my thumb so one could track and the other could click (very bad). My hands don't move far from the home possition so I can always easily find crtl. The only improvement I can think of is the have tactile finger guides on the ctrl key.
With a mouse however I do find it easier to use a two button mouse (I guess the about paragraph is kind of off topic). But the idea behind the single mouse is that right clicks are not required for opperation and all context menu's are available in the menu bar. This is not true on a pc, especially if M$ has designed the product. Often in PC apps right clicking on an object is the only way to get to some functions, very frustrating.
I have used several pc laptops and was skeptical about the mac 1 button mouse culture; however, after owning a powerbook for about a year I must say I am very happy with the single large button all the way across the bottom of the track pad. The advantage of this is that I can use either hand (or either thumb) to track with while the other can clumsily tap the over sized button. On the PC's I would have to constantly think about which button I was going to hit or need to hit, often this involved crossing my thumb so one could track and the other could click (very bad). My hands don't move far from the home possition so I can always easily find crtl. The only improvement I can think of is the have tactile finger guides on the ctrl key.
With a mouse however I do find it easier to use a two button mouse (I guess the about paragraph is kind of off topic). But the idea behind the single mouse is that right clicks are not required for opperation and all context menu's are available in the menu bar. This is not true on a pc, especially if M$ has designed the product. Often in PC apps right clicking on an object is the only way to get to some functions, very frustrating.
Pointless Struggle over 2 button mice
I have to say I don't understand the resistance to multibutton mice.
Can't we all agree that apple can handle this challenge? Just set the defaults so that both buttons "Left" click, and everyone would get what they wanted. Beginning users would get essentially one button. Changing the system prefs could enable the second click. After a week or so of use, I suspect people could probably evolve to two buttons, but the choice would be there.
Ultimately, I think the solution is a touchpad button, which could be configured to simulate a single button to tapping, or could be divided into two button areas, or even used for gestures (i.e rotary scrolling). That would work for mice and laptops as easily as it does on the iPods.
I have to say I don't understand the resistance to multibutton mice.
Can't we all agree that apple can handle this challenge? Just set the defaults so that both buttons "Left" click, and everyone would get what they wanted. Beginning users would get essentially one button. Changing the system prefs could enable the second click. After a week or so of use, I suspect people could probably evolve to two buttons, but the choice would be there.
Ultimately, I think the solution is a touchpad button, which could be configured to simulate a single button to tapping, or could be divided into two button areas, or even used for gestures (i.e rotary scrolling). That would work for mice and laptops as easily as it does on the iPods.
if jobs wants the 1 button mouse so bad.. why dont they offer a 2 button APPLE mouse as an option when you buy your computer.. no extra charge.. basically you can have a one button or a 2 button mouse YOUR choice. Its ridiculous that in this day in age.. a freakin G5 comes with a one button mouse.
Another idea.. imacs can ship with one button.. G5s ship with 2 button.. come on... apple shouldnt be marketing their computers to the "idiot" anymore.. little old ladies who don't know what a 2 button mouse is for.. first of all.. i say F*CK em... apple needs to market towards the creative professionals that use their computers every day to get work done... and second... the beginning computer IDIOT will most likely not shell out all the cash for a G5
sorry for the rant.. this just seems ridiculous to me.. i spend 3K on a computer.. no monitor.. and i need to go out and buy an aftermarket mouse? get a clue jobs... the one button mouse thing worked for a while.. but we've been in the 21st century now for several years.. all things must change..
Another idea.. imacs can ship with one button.. G5s ship with 2 button.. come on... apple shouldnt be marketing their computers to the "idiot" anymore.. little old ladies who don't know what a 2 button mouse is for.. first of all.. i say F*CK em... apple needs to market towards the creative professionals that use their computers every day to get work done... and second... the beginning computer IDIOT will most likely not shell out all the cash for a G5
sorry for the rant.. this just seems ridiculous to me.. i spend 3K on a computer.. no monitor.. and i need to go out and buy an aftermarket mouse?
get a clue jobs... the one button mouse thing worked for a while.. but we've been in the 21st century now for several years.. all things must change..Re: Re: Re: So much anger!
The point of the menu option is to download the target WITHOUT browsing to the page. I use this often, particularly with video and sound clips. I don't want them to PLAY, I don't want QuickTime doing the download - I want the file downloaded, plain and simple. I'll grant you that your way is ultimately usable as well, but I would argue that the difference isn't necessarily trivial.
Your point about the command-click has a major flaw: you already have to know to hold down option before you get the visual input. And you have to turn on a status bar that isn't on by default. Both things will elude the novice user - and that's what the mouse button argument always ends up boiling down to.
I will concede that a novice user would have to figure out to use the second mouse button as well, but I would argue that it is far more intuitive to click the "other" mouse button to try and access "other" functionality than it is to turn on a feature in a program menu, hold down an arbitrary key (a terrible UI convention, IMO - worse than most any mouse-related UI fallacy in my eyes), and point at things while continuing to hold down the key.
This is not something I will argue against. Having other means of accomplishing tasks IS a good thing, and good UI design will always try to accomodate users that might want to perform operations in different ways.
The point of the menu option is to download the target WITHOUT browsing to the page. I use this often, particularly with video and sound clips. I don't want them to PLAY, I don't want QuickTime doing the download - I want the file downloaded, plain and simple. I'll grant you that your way is ultimately usable as well, but I would argue that the difference isn't necessarily trivial.
Your point about the command-click has a major flaw: you already have to know to hold down option before you get the visual input. And you have to turn on a status bar that isn't on by default. Both things will elude the novice user - and that's what the mouse button argument always ends up boiling down to.
I will concede that a novice user would have to figure out to use the second mouse button as well, but I would argue that it is far more intuitive to click the "other" mouse button to try and access "other" functionality than it is to turn on a feature in a program menu, hold down an arbitrary key (a terrible UI convention, IMO - worse than most any mouse-related UI fallacy in my eyes), and point at things while continuing to hold down the key.
This is not something I will argue against. Having other means of accomplishing tasks IS a good thing, and good UI design will always try to accomodate users that might want to perform operations in different ways.
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
[EDIT] Never mind someone mentioned it.
Why can't we delete our own posts...er..blunders
Contribute and you might just get that ability.
We'll talk about it.
Coming from a PC side of things I wont use a 1 button mouse ever. This is why it somewhat irks me that there are so may comments that Oh just replace the mouse Thats great for a desktop. But I dont want to carry around a mouse for a PowerBook. Its not a matter of getting use to it. Its a matter of principle. Ive read how you dont need context sensitive menus. This is bull IMHO Context sensitive menus are the ultimate shortcuts. They pack a lot of functionality depending where you are on the screen. So instead of needing to wade through menus at the top of the screen its right there one click of the mouse away. And for those against CSM you can argue all day and night. Its not going to change the fact that CSMs are very powerful tools when designed right. Ive seen more then my fair share of software where CSM is a bloody mess.
As for the two button mouse. LOL. Im starting to wonder if this topic is right up there with porting OSX to i386 as the most discussed topic on the board.
Again I dont subscribe to the notion that a two button mouse is any harder to use then a one button. Its simply a matter of education. If someone has never used a 2 button mouse before of course its going to take some learning but as soon as they learn that its the equivalent of the, thats the blasted command again? , ctrl click?, cloverleaf click? , they know whats going on. The office I work in is populated with users in their 30s-40s-50s. Everyone knows what a right mouse click does, even the older folks, simply because thats what theyve used.
Honestly the supposed simplicity of the one button mouse has always eluded me. Maybe its just me but any functionality of the mouse should stay .on the mouse. By having a toggle button on the keyboard that isnt glaringly obvious, heck it took me a few minutes to figure it out a few months back when I went in to play with a 17 PowerBook and even now I have no idea what the key is, you are making it more difficult to use the mouse then simply having a toggle key on the mouse itself which we would call a right mouse button. I do not understand this, Ive never understood this, and I highly doubt I ever will because IMHO it seems bizarre.
Maybe Im giving people a bit to much credit but if they graduated from grade school there should be enough intelligence in their skull to figure out after a few clicks what a right mouse click does. And its not as if Apple has been advertising CSM and the right mouse click. I seriously wonder what % of mac users even know about it and if they did how many would use it. I also wonder what % of Mac users replace their mouse with a 2 button mouse.
Possible poll question?
Thats great for a desktop. But I dont want to carry around a mouse for a PowerBook. Its not a matter of getting use to it. Its a matter of principle. Ive read how you dont need context sensitive menus. This is bull IMHO Context sensitive menus are the ultimate shortcuts. They pack a lot of functionality depending where you are on the screen. So instead of needing to wade through menus at the top of the screen its right there one click of the mouse away. And for those against CSM you can argue all day and night. Its not going to change the fact that CSMs are very powerful tools when designed right. Ive seen more then my fair share of software where CSM is a bloody mess.As for the two button mouse. LOL. Im starting to wonder if this topic is right up there with porting OSX to i386 as the most discussed topic on the board.
Again I dont subscribe to the notion that a two button mouse is any harder to use then a one button. Its simply a matter of education. If someone has never used a 2 button mouse before of course its going to take some learning but as soon as they learn that its the equivalent of the, thats the blasted command again? , ctrl click?, cloverleaf click? , they know whats going on. The office I work in is populated with users in their 30s-40s-50s. Everyone knows what a right mouse click does, even the older folks, simply because thats what theyve used.
Honestly the supposed simplicity of the one button mouse has always eluded me. Maybe its just me but any functionality of the mouse should stay .on the mouse. By having a toggle button on the keyboard that isnt glaringly obvious, heck it took me a few minutes to figure it out a few months back when I went in to play with a 17 PowerBook and even now I have no idea what the key is, you are making it more difficult to use the mouse then simply having a toggle key on the mouse itself which we would call a right mouse button. I do not understand this, Ive never understood this, and I highly doubt I ever will because IMHO it seems bizarre.
Maybe Im giving people a bit to much credit but if they graduated from grade school there should be enough intelligence in their skull to figure out after a few clicks what a right mouse click does. And its not as if Apple has been advertising CSM and the right mouse click. I seriously wonder what % of mac users even know about it and if they did how many would use it. I also wonder what % of Mac users replace their mouse with a 2 button mouse.
Possible poll question?
I think this really sucks
I've been reading these boards for a year now, i have been using macs for a few years, and this is the first time i have ever been really dissapointed in the Mac community here, so much so that i had to register just to post this.
There is no way any of you can defend this ****, people with ancedotal evidence that 2nd mouse buttons Scare and confuse users, need to get those users into a home for the Senile. its an extra button, not a mind probe. And control clicking is not a valid exercise for contextual menus either, so don't bring it up.
If i pay 3 grand on a G5, or a PB, i should not have to sell parts of my hardware on eBay and then buy a replacement third party mouse. Its not something i should have to do, when i am dealing with a high end manufacturer. The G5 and the powerbooks are PREMIUM top of the range hardware. None of you would ever find a superior PC desk or notebook to these, could you?
So if i do go with the ultimate hardware, why do i get an antiquated input device with it? (even though it is beautiful)
Why the hell should i have to buy a 3rd party solution?????
I've been reading these boards for a year now, i have been using macs for a few years, and this is the first time i have ever been really dissapointed in the Mac community here, so much so that i had to register just to post this.
There is no way any of you can defend this ****, people with ancedotal evidence that 2nd mouse buttons Scare and confuse users, need to get those users into a home for the Senile. its an extra button, not a mind probe. And control clicking is not a valid exercise for contextual menus either, so don't bring it up.
If i pay 3 grand on a G5, or a PB, i should not have to sell parts of my hardware on eBay and then buy a replacement third party mouse. Its not something i should have to do, when i am dealing with a high end manufacturer. The G5 and the powerbooks are PREMIUM top of the range hardware. None of you would ever find a superior PC desk or notebook to these, could you?
So if i do go with the ultimate hardware, why do i get an antiquated input device with it? (even though it is beautiful)
Why the hell should i have to buy a 3rd party solution?????
Re: I think this really sucks
Because the simple fact is no matter what mouse Apple provides with it, it will not satisfy everyone. So the best route is to supply the best but cheapest simplest mouse they can and let the people get the mouse they really want. When you buy a Mac you are not paying for the mouse. Just think of it as a free gift.
Because the simple fact is no matter what mouse Apple provides with it, it will not satisfy everyone. So the best route is to supply the best but cheapest simplest mouse they can and let the people get the mouse they really want. When you buy a Mac you are not paying for the mouse. Just think of it as a free gift.