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2 Button Mouse?
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At last, a solution!
it's obvious (to me, at least) that someone needs to start a new powerbook rumor if this is what happens when there's nothing else to talk about.
here's my tiny attempt to help:
if you really, really hate your 1-button mouse, mail it to me. i will send you a crisp dollar bill. put it towards the purchase of a bigger, badder mouse. or a can of soda. or pornography. or have it framed for display. what you do with your dollar is entirely up to you.
i am 100% serious -- message me for details.
(limit 1 mouse per person. offer is restricted to the first 20 respondents. offer expires 9/26/03.)
it's obvious (to me, at least) that someone needs to start a new powerbook rumor if this is what happens when there's nothing else to talk about.
here's my tiny attempt to help:
if you really, really hate your 1-button mouse, mail it to me. i will send you a crisp dollar bill. put it towards the purchase of a bigger, badder mouse. or a can of soda. or pornography. or have it framed for display. what you do with your dollar is entirely up to you.
i am 100% serious -- message me for details.
(limit 1 mouse per person. offer is restricted to the first 20 respondents. offer expires 9/26/03.)
OMG! Get a life! Wait, what am I....
I can't believe the division on this topic. I think the real issue is the two button folks want an Apple designed two button mouse. Not unreasonable since most of us like Macs for their design. I would certainly hope they could do a better job then say MS or Logitech - although I am using a 2 button optical Logitech w/scroll and like it.
For those asking for 3+ buttons - get real! If you THINK that is the wave of the future then you are too young to be posting here. Three button + mice have been around for, well, over a decade. Not what I would call a wave of the future. The wave of the future is an input device that replaces the mouse - one or two button variety. That is what I am hoping Apple is working on. Creating this type of device would be what Apple is best at. Inventing. Creating. Leading the pack. Of course this would more than likely mean a whole new way to use your computer.
I can't believe the division on this topic. I think the real issue is the two button folks want an Apple designed two button mouse. Not unreasonable since most of us like Macs for their design. I would certainly hope they could do a better job then say MS or Logitech - although I am using a 2 button optical Logitech w/scroll and like it.
For those asking for 3+ buttons - get real! If you THINK that is the wave of the future then you are too young to be posting here. Three button + mice have been around for, well, over a decade. Not what I would call a wave of the future. The wave of the future is an input device that replaces the mouse - one or two button variety. That is what I am hoping Apple is working on. Creating this type of device would be what Apple is best at. Inventing. Creating. Leading the pack. Of course this would more than likely mean a whole new way to use your computer.
My problem
There is one reason why i am pissed with apple one button mice. And it isnt because i am too lazy to go to the store and purchase another mouse. I would do that if i could BUT NOW I HAVE TO LUG around an external mouse for MY BRAND NEW LAPTOP.
Because you can't just change the mouse buttons on a laptop. Apple's laptops should have 2 sides to the click button and as default , both sides should do the same thing, but if you set it differently, the other side should be a right click.[not my idea] I dont understand why apple doesnt do this. There is nothing but stubbornness that creates this decision. Begining users can just use a default setting. I dont care if i have to change a setting to get 2 clicks, that doesnt bother me, but my new laptop is short one mouse button because steve likes it "his way"
I wonder if steve uses a two button mouse when no one is looking.....
There is one reason why i am pissed with apple one button mice. And it isnt because i am too lazy to go to the store and purchase another mouse. I would do that if i could BUT NOW I HAVE TO LUG around an external mouse for MY BRAND NEW LAPTOP.
Because you can't just change the mouse buttons on a laptop. Apple's laptops should have 2 sides to the click button and as default , both sides should do the same thing, but if you set it differently, the other side should be a right click.[not my idea] I dont understand why apple doesnt do this. There is nothing but stubbornness that creates this decision. Begining users can just use a default setting. I dont care if i have to change a setting to get 2 clicks, that doesnt bother me, but my new laptop is short one mouse button because steve likes it "his way"
I wonder if steve uses a two button mouse when no one is looking.....
oh come on apple, just give us a 2 button, bluetooth mouse with a scroll wheel! i used to not really care about the two button/scroll wheel thing, but after using it for a while i find myself hating the apple mice on my other macs, because they slow down my productivity = (
Re: Re: 2 Button Mouse?
I'm with you on that, Apple needs to let go of a few things.... personally I think I could run the damn company better.... and, although all You Apple nuts will jump on me for saying this, the floppy drive needs to come back. As a student in a PC world, the lack of a 5$ peice of equipment is severly missed and creates alot of trouble.
Oh Steve.... THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR DAMNED INNOVATIONS!
I'm with you on that, Apple needs to let go of a few things.... personally I think I could run the damn company better.... and, although all You Apple nuts will jump on me for saying this, the floppy drive needs to come back. As a student in a PC world, the lack of a 5$ peice of equipment is severly missed and creates alot of trouble.
Oh Steve.... THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR DAMNED INNOVATIONS!
Re: Re: such a non-issue
IMHO, the mouse is about the easiest component to change on a Mac system (I use a Microsoft mouse), so if Apple is going to screw up (as defined by me) in some area, I prefer it here.
I believe it was the book The Innovator's Dilemma that claimed that well run companies that listen and respond to their best customers often go down the tubes.
IMHO, the mouse is about the easiest component to change on a Mac system (I use a Microsoft mouse), so if Apple is going to screw up (as defined by me) in some area, I prefer it here.
Re: Re: I think this really sucks
With all due respect I disagree. Do you actually think that Apple doesn't bundle the price of the keyboard and mouse into the overall price of the system? You ARE paying for the keyboard and mouse. Now in bulk I'm guessing its substantially less then whatever Apple sells the keyboard and mouse for on their website but its in there somewhere.
With the desktop, as people have stated, its less of an issue because you can replace the keyboard and mouse if you feel like it. The complaining about spending XXXX and not having the option to use an alternative can be lobbed back into the complainers court in that if you are spending several thousand $30-$80 bucks more shouldn't make or break you.
But I do see the reasoning from a principle standpoint. At the time of purchase you should have the option for a 2 button mouse and if not that then you should have the option for no mouse. People as a general rule don't like being forced into something and that's what Apple is doing. The whole my way or the highway thing. If people like using a one button mouse thats fine. More power to them. Reading through the posts here I dont see anyone saying that people are stupid for using one button mice. Its more of a personal preference at this point. If you are more productive with a one button mouse good. If you are more productive with a 2 button mouse good. It doesnt really matter.
I think the main point of anyone who supports the 2 button mouse is that the excuse that its more difficult is old, tired, and just not accurate anymore.
With all due respect I disagree. Do you actually think that Apple doesn't bundle the price of the keyboard and mouse into the overall price of the system? You ARE paying for the keyboard and mouse. Now in bulk I'm guessing its substantially less then whatever Apple sells the keyboard and mouse for on their website but its in there somewhere.
With the desktop, as people have stated, its less of an issue because you can replace the keyboard and mouse if you feel like it. The complaining about spending XXXX and not having the option to use an alternative can be lobbed back into the complainers court in that if you are spending several thousand $30-$80 bucks more shouldn't make or break you.
But I do see the reasoning from a principle standpoint. At the time of purchase you should have the option for a 2 button mouse and if not that then you should have the option for no mouse. People as a general rule don't like being forced into something and that's what Apple is doing. The whole my way or the highway thing. If people like using a one button mouse thats fine. More power to them. Reading through the posts here I dont see anyone saying that people are stupid for using one button mice. Its more of a personal preference at this point. If you are more productive with a one button mouse good. If you are more productive with a 2 button mouse good. It doesnt really matter.
I think the main point of anyone who supports the 2 button mouse is that the excuse that its more difficult is old, tired, and just not accurate anymore.
1 button hell
I think we all understand that too many buttons confuses things at some point, so I personally think we should distinguish the two button argument from the "I want 5 buttons and a scroll wheel argument"
Saying TWO buttons is too complicated, but still using a second button on a keyboard as a click modifier is pretty inconsistent. As a couple of people have pointed out, it's LESS intuitive to think of combining one of the 3 modifier keys to get something done. I mean how "windows" is that?
I think the battle for barebones simplicity is over. It ended with ctrl-clicking. Contextual menus are the next evolutionary step, and once you accept that, getting there by a more convoluted technique is just more awkward than using a second button. Do we need to put a second ctrl key on the mouse to see that?
As I said in a previous post, you could always assign both buttons to "left click" by default out of the box, to preserve general usability (i.e. K-12 education).
Lastly, Apple is trying recreate itself in high end fashion: G5 and enterprise etc. I think the 1 button mouse is underpowered for that user.
I'm still hoping Apple is going to bust out with a mouse with a touchpad button. That would be clean and simple and configurable, and unbreakable, with scrolling and gestures etc.
I think we all understand that too many buttons confuses things at some point, so I personally think we should distinguish the two button argument from the "I want 5 buttons and a scroll wheel argument"
Saying TWO buttons is too complicated, but still using a second button on a keyboard as a click modifier is pretty inconsistent. As a couple of people have pointed out, it's LESS intuitive to think of combining one of the 3 modifier keys to get something done. I mean how "windows" is that?
I think the battle for barebones simplicity is over. It ended with ctrl-clicking. Contextual menus are the next evolutionary step, and once you accept that, getting there by a more convoluted technique is just more awkward than using a second button. Do we need to put a second ctrl key on the mouse to see that?
As I said in a previous post, you could always assign both buttons to "left click" by default out of the box, to preserve general usability (i.e. K-12 education).
Lastly, Apple is trying recreate itself in high end fashion: G5 and enterprise etc. I think the 1 button mouse is underpowered for that user.
I'm still hoping Apple is going to bust out with a mouse with a touchpad button. That would be clean and simple and configurable, and unbreakable, with scrolling and gestures etc.
I don't think it's a question of "power" users needing more buttons. It's just different manners of using the computer and both can be effective and efficient.
But as it has been said before on the thread, Apple supports their nice, simple and tidy interface with a simple one button mouse that won't tempt developers to clutter it. It's perfect. And I think they should keep on doing it.
But as it has been said before on the thread, Apple supports their nice, simple and tidy interface with a simple one button mouse that won't tempt developers to clutter it. It's perfect. And I think they should keep on doing it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: such a non-issue
oh man, you're so right it hurts.
let's eliminate the lowest common denominator!!
that way, we'll only have 3 powerbooks, and 3 powermacs - no imacs, no ibooks, heck, we won' tneed the itunes store! power users are too busy!
and you are actually insulting more people than you know by insinuating that they should be able to understand the two button mouse when they can't!
i really mean what my sig says! if this is such a big deal to you that you don't want to touch your apple branded mouse, send it to me! i need a new mouse!
man oh man, i've never seen a small group of people become to outraged by a mouse that they can replace quite easily...
and don't give me 'they don't give me a choice!' crap. you have a choice - buy a different freakin mouse.
oh, and for those of you who say 'they've really dropped the ball, they're gonna loose out big, there is no waayyyy they're going to sell ANYONE a freakin 70 dollar BT one button mouse!, etc.', look at store.apple.com's top 10 sales... guess what...
so i guess that LCD might be important after all, huh?
matt
oh man, you're so right it hurts.
let's eliminate the lowest common denominator!!
that way, we'll only have 3 powerbooks, and 3 powermacs - no imacs, no ibooks, heck, we won' tneed the itunes store! power users are too busy!
and you are actually insulting more people than you know by insinuating that they should be able to understand the two button mouse when they can't!
i really mean what my sig says! if this is such a big deal to you that you don't want to touch your apple branded mouse, send it to me! i need a new mouse!
man oh man, i've never seen a small group of people become to outraged by a mouse that they can replace quite easily...
and don't give me 'they don't give me a choice!' crap. you have a choice - buy a different freakin mouse.
oh, and for those of you who say 'they've really dropped the ball, they're gonna loose out big, there is no waayyyy they're going to sell ANYONE a freakin 70 dollar BT one button mouse!, etc.', look at store.apple.com's top 10 sales... guess what...
so i guess that LCD might be important after all, huh?
matt
Re: Re: Re: 2 Button Mouse?
maybe you should sit down for a few minutes, breathe, relax, realize you're talking about something that can be replaced cheaply, and then realize, as it's been pointed out a dozen times on this board -
NeXT used two button mice.
If steveo was sooo against two button mice, why would the company *he* actually started himself support the two button mouse.
there's solid reasons behind a two button mouse. and luckily, if you don't agree with apple, there's still tons of mice you can buy.
matt
maybe you should sit down for a few minutes, breathe, relax, realize you're talking about something that can be replaced cheaply, and then realize, as it's been pointed out a dozen times on this board -
NeXT used two button mice.
If steveo was sooo against two button mice, why would the company *he* actually started himself support the two button mouse.
there's solid reasons behind a two button mouse. and luckily, if you don't agree with apple, there's still tons of mice you can buy.
matt
Re: Re: Re: Re: So much anger!
Actually, you could just look in the preferences under tabbed browsing, and it tells you what all the key combos do. Of course, this isn't exactly trivial, so I see your point. But what I was pointing out was that there still is an alternative to the contextual menu. I agree with you -- the contextual menu is much more convenient, and I use the "Download Link to Disk" item all the time in Safari's contextual menus. But not everyone knows it's there.
Why is holding down a MODIFIER key on the keyboard while using the regular mouse button to access OTHER functionality any less intuitive than holding down an alternative mouse button to access alternative functionality? It's exactly the same. You're modifying your action; one with a modifier key, one with a different mouse button. Just because you have to use both the mouse and keyboard with a one-button mouse doesn't make it unintuitive -- in fact, my left hand remains on the keyboard while I move my right to the mouse, so I can easily reach the control key.
It makes perfect sense to hold down a modifier key to access other functionality, especially since you already do it so much of the time -- what do you think you're doing when you press Command-Q instead of Q? You're telling your Mac, "No, I don't want to type the letter 'q', I want to quit the active application." Applying the same notion to mouse buttons is hardly unintuitive.
That's the main point I was trying to make. If a two-button mouse becomes standard, then software makers will assume that everyone uses the two-button mouse, and make features that are only accessible in things like contextual menus. That's horrible design, and something I hope will never come to the Mac. One of the main reasons why I use a Mac is that the quality of the software is high because of careful UI decisions like this, and software that deviates from this highly annoys me. One less barrier to bad software is a bad thing, and I will gladly endure all the whiners who want an Apple-branded multi-button mouse in order to keep my quality Mac software.
Actually, you could just look in the preferences under tabbed browsing, and it tells you what all the key combos do. Of course, this isn't exactly trivial, so I see your point. But what I was pointing out was that there still is an alternative to the contextual menu. I agree with you -- the contextual menu is much more convenient, and I use the "Download Link to Disk" item all the time in Safari's contextual menus. But not everyone knows it's there.
Why is holding down a MODIFIER key on the keyboard while using the regular mouse button to access OTHER functionality any less intuitive than holding down an alternative mouse button to access alternative functionality? It's exactly the same. You're modifying your action; one with a modifier key, one with a different mouse button. Just because you have to use both the mouse and keyboard with a one-button mouse doesn't make it unintuitive -- in fact, my left hand remains on the keyboard while I move my right to the mouse, so I can easily reach the control key.
It makes perfect sense to hold down a modifier key to access other functionality, especially since you already do it so much of the time -- what do you think you're doing when you press Command-Q instead of Q? You're telling your Mac, "No, I don't want to type the letter 'q', I want to quit the active application." Applying the same notion to mouse buttons is hardly unintuitive.
That's the main point I was trying to make. If a two-button mouse becomes standard, then software makers will assume that everyone uses the two-button mouse, and make features that are only accessible in things like contextual menus. That's horrible design, and something I hope will never come to the Mac. One of the main reasons why I use a Mac is that the quality of the software is high because of careful UI decisions like this, and software that deviates from this highly annoys me. One less barrier to bad software is a bad thing, and I will gladly endure all the whiners who want an Apple-branded multi-button mouse in order to keep my quality Mac software.
it would undermine Apple's dev guidelines
Apple's development guidelines clearly state that anything in a contextual menu should only be a shortcut to something that can be accessed elsewhere. In other words, you should never HAVE to use a contextual menu to use a feature in a program.
If Apple starts shipping a 2 (or more) button mouse, developers will start ignoring this guideline, because "right-click" will become standard. Then, those computer newbies that only have or only want a one button mouse will not be able to access certain features.
Considering quite a few third party companies make good multi button mice, I believe Apple's position is fine.
To the person wanting a floppy drive, why not invest in an inexpensive 32MB USB flash drive? Floppies are physically larger, hold less, and lose data easier.
Apple's development guidelines clearly state that anything in a contextual menu should only be a shortcut to something that can be accessed elsewhere. In other words, you should never HAVE to use a contextual menu to use a feature in a program.
If Apple starts shipping a 2 (or more) button mouse, developers will start ignoring this guideline, because "right-click" will become standard. Then, those computer newbies that only have or only want a one button mouse will not be able to access certain features.
Considering quite a few third party companies make good multi button mice, I believe Apple's position is fine.
To the person wanting a floppy drive, why not invest in an inexpensive 32MB USB flash drive? Floppies are physically larger, hold less, and lose data easier.
Like I said before, I don't care if it has one button, two buttons, or a gazillion buttons as long as the mouse works!
no button mouse
Everyone commenting that Apple needs to upgrade from 1 to 2 button mice are not seeing the picture. While you were all sleeping, Apple decided to remove the ONE button we did have.
Apple mice now have ZERO buttons. Creating a 2 button mouse in the style we have now would either:
a) ruin the "form" of the Apple mouse
b) lose the ablity to provide tactile responce. (i'm thinking left and right touch sensors like the power button)
My mac is an iBook, and I don't really miss 2 buttons, because my hands are on the KB anyway. If I had a desktop, I'd buy a 2 button + scroll mouse (I bought one for my wife). Although it is more fuctional than the original (no button) pro mouse I can't see how even apple could make 2 buttons and a scroll and make it look like it mathes everything else.
Everyone commenting that Apple needs to upgrade from 1 to 2 button mice are not seeing the picture. While you were all sleeping, Apple decided to remove the ONE button we did have.
Apple mice now have ZERO buttons. Creating a 2 button mouse in the style we have now would either:
a) ruin the "form" of the Apple mouse
b) lose the ablity to provide tactile responce. (i'm thinking left and right touch sensors like the power button)
My mac is an iBook, and I don't really miss 2 buttons, because my hands are on the KB anyway. If I had a desktop, I'd buy a 2 button + scroll mouse (I bought one for my wife). Although it is more fuctional than the original (no button) pro mouse I can't see how even apple could make 2 buttons and a scroll and make it look like it mathes everything else.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So much anger!
A scroll wheel is a much more muddy issue than the two-button mouse. If the scroll wheel functions SOLELY as a scroll wheel, and not also as a button, then it can't really contribute to crappy UI design.
However, I would venture to say that it might be better to still leave it off the standard Apple mouse, because it still adds a level of confusion (though arguably not nearly as much as a second button). If Apple created an innovative way to create an intuitive scroll wheel (potentially like the one described in their recent patent), I don't think I'd necessarily be against putting it in the standard mouse.
Personally, I'm not incredibly fond of scroll wheels because they're not incredibly convenient, IMHO. Yeah, it's nice to be able to scroll down a page with the mouse, but on pages like forums and stuff, I already have my hands on the keyboard, so I just use the spacebar to scroll. Also, scrollwheels depend on where your mouse is positioned. For example, if the pointer is hovering over a textbox in a webpage, it'll scroll the textbox. If it's not, then it scrolls the webpage. The most annoying behavior of this, though, is that when the textbox is scrolled down to the bottom of the page, the web page then starts to scroll, even if you're in the same scroll action. I think this should be improved -- if you're scrolling a textbox, it shouldn't scroll the webpage as well in the same action. But if the textbox is already scrolled all the way down, then in a NEW scroll action, it's OK to scroll the web page.
There are a bunch of other things that I find kind of quirky about the scroll wheel in its current incarnation (and most if it is probably due to software design, not hardware design), which is why I lean more towards leaving off scroll wheels on the standard Apple mouse as well.
A scroll wheel is a much more muddy issue than the two-button mouse. If the scroll wheel functions SOLELY as a scroll wheel, and not also as a button, then it can't really contribute to crappy UI design.
However, I would venture to say that it might be better to still leave it off the standard Apple mouse, because it still adds a level of confusion (though arguably not nearly as much as a second button). If Apple created an innovative way to create an intuitive scroll wheel (potentially like the one described in their recent patent), I don't think I'd necessarily be against putting it in the standard mouse.
Personally, I'm not incredibly fond of scroll wheels because they're not incredibly convenient, IMHO. Yeah, it's nice to be able to scroll down a page with the mouse, but on pages like forums and stuff, I already have my hands on the keyboard, so I just use the spacebar to scroll. Also, scrollwheels depend on where your mouse is positioned. For example, if the pointer is hovering over a textbox in a webpage, it'll scroll the textbox. If it's not, then it scrolls the webpage. The most annoying behavior of this, though, is that when the textbox is scrolled down to the bottom of the page, the web page then starts to scroll, even if you're in the same scroll action. I think this should be improved -- if you're scrolling a textbox, it shouldn't scroll the webpage as well in the same action. But if the textbox is already scrolled all the way down, then in a NEW scroll action, it's OK to scroll the web page.
There are a bunch of other things that I find kind of quirky about the scroll wheel in its current incarnation (and most if it is probably due to software design, not hardware design), which is why I lean more towards leaving off scroll wheels on the standard Apple mouse as well.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Nice 'tude
Arn, I respectfully disagree. About 80% of people who use PCs know what the second mouse button does. I watch people of various ages every day. The others chose not to use it at all. Thats their choice.
Besides the fact that $70 for a single button mouse is the funniest thing I have ever seen, Apple certinaly doesn't know their market.
Lets see....lets spend millions upon millions of dollars telling everyone they should switch to the mac....but, even though we support the way they work with their computer, we won't let them without making the spend money on "hidden costs".
There are lots of Mac users who want 2-button mice. But even more so, 95% of switchers will want a 2 button mouse.
To add to this, Panther has added context button toolbars....nice touch, but now it requires 2 clicks instead of one. Just as currently you need 2 button presses (option+click) instead of one.
Yes everyone, lets say it together. 2 steps is bad UI design.
Get over it, it won't kill Apple to make it an option so people don't have to spend extra money just to get a decent mouse. Those who want a 1 button mouse can have theirs as well.
But I've got to say it, some of you idiots who swear it will be the end of Apple if they add 2 buttons because you must find choice and freedom to be an evil in this world. I think you guys would be much happier living in North Korea where you have no say in anything.
Edit: Note to Arn....I was not refering to you in the last paragraph
Arn, I respectfully disagree. About 80% of people who use PCs know what the second mouse button does. I watch people of various ages every day. The others chose not to use it at all. Thats their choice.
Besides the fact that $70 for a single button mouse is the funniest thing I have ever seen, Apple certinaly doesn't know their market.
Lets see....lets spend millions upon millions of dollars telling everyone they should switch to the mac....but, even though we support the way they work with their computer, we won't let them without making the spend money on "hidden costs".
There are lots of Mac users who want 2-button mice. But even more so, 95% of switchers will want a 2 button mouse.
To add to this, Panther has added context button toolbars....nice touch, but now it requires 2 clicks instead of one. Just as currently you need 2 button presses (option+click) instead of one.
Yes everyone, lets say it together. 2 steps is bad UI design.
Get over it, it won't kill Apple to make it an option so people don't have to spend extra money just to get a decent mouse. Those who want a 1 button mouse can have theirs as well.
But I've got to say it, some of you idiots who swear it will be the end of Apple if they add 2 buttons because you must find choice and freedom to be an evil in this world. I think you guys would be much happier living in North Korea where you have no say in anything.
Edit: Note to Arn....I was not refering to you in the last paragraph
i guess it comes down to preference. i for one, like anything that helps me work faster and more intuitively! using my two button mouse and scroll wheel, i can do so much with one hand instead of using the keyboard and mouse. this may seem trivial, but it makes a big difference to me and many others.
i don't really care in the end, if i have to buy a third party mouse or one from apple to be honest. i just know apple is missing the boat not offering it's pro users the option of purchasing a "pro" 2 button/wheel mouse designed by apple. as an apple stock holder and life long user, i think in terms of what i'd like and also what's a financially good concept for apple. talking in really simple terms (basically pulling numbers out of the air), say the profit on a pro mouse is $25 and apple sells 100,000 of 'em a year, that quite a few clams. why give that business to someone else, when apple knows that we die-hard mac fanatics will buy just about anything if you slop an apple logo on it... if anybody at apple is reading this, please forward a note to steve to read this!
i don't really care in the end, if i have to buy a third party mouse or one from apple to be honest. i just know apple is missing the boat not offering it's pro users the option of purchasing a "pro" 2 button/wheel mouse designed by apple. as an apple stock holder and life long user, i think in terms of what i'd like and also what's a financially good concept for apple. talking in really simple terms (basically pulling numbers out of the air), say the profit on a pro mouse is $25 and apple sells 100,000 of 'em a year, that quite a few clams. why give that business to someone else, when apple knows that we die-hard mac fanatics will buy just about anything if you slop an apple logo on it... if anybody at apple is reading this, please forward a note to steve to read this!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So much anger!
Ask someone that's never used a PC to point to the "right mouse button".
Now ask them to point out the "modifier" key (it's right next to the "any key"!).
A modifier key is not immediately obvious. Not to mention we're talking about more than one key here. Bringing up the menus is done with a CTRL-click. Why not Alt/Option, why not the Apple key? It's arbitrary, and it in no way shape or form as obvious as an additional mouse button. The fact is, the keyboard and mouse are separate devices, and your solution involves even thinking you need to coordinate between the two. This is better than having mouse functionality accomplished with buttons on the mouse, and keyboard keys stick to keyboard functionality?
Sorry, I've had to explain to too many people that think "you can't right-click on a Mac" to buy it. It's not intuitive to require combined input across multiple devices to accomplish a single task. Far too many people will assume it can't be done before making that connection. After all, you wouldn't expect to have to (or even be able to) hold a modifier key and press a button on a joystick or gamepad, and have it do something different. I think you highly underestimate the division between separate devices in peoples' minds - and I think that should be the ideal.
Not to mention that not every person has use of two hands, and even for those of us that do, I won't buy a rather arbitrary coordination of two hands and two input devices as being equally simple and intuitive as a simple action with one hand on one input device.
Many PC applications manage to not do this. Bad UI design is bad UI design. Having a one-button mouse does not prevent bad design. We have a different philosophy on this, and that's OK. I am not willing to sacrifice hardware functionality on the basis that some software developer may put it to bad use.
The more I can do one-handed with a mouse, and the less often I have to set down my Coca-Cola, the better. Heh, my computer-novice family would throw a fit if I ever took their mouse away and just gave them one without a scroll wheel, let alone only one button.
Of course, in the long run, as long as MacOS continues to support third-party multi-button mice, I only care with respect to laptop computers. And I accept that it would be really hard to release laptops with different numbers of buttons. I kinda like the idea of PowerBooks being 2-button and iBooks being 1-button, but I accept that it would be difficult to get some elements of the Mac community to go with that.
I think Apple ought to make it a BTO option and such, but really, as long as there is a way to get it, it's really not a big deal. I just wish there were a 2nd button on my PowerBook. And maybe even the "scroll area" on the touchpad like my girlfriend's HP would be nice. But let's not go down that road.
Ask someone that's never used a PC to point to the "right mouse button".
Now ask them to point out the "modifier" key (it's right next to the "any key"!).
A modifier key is not immediately obvious. Not to mention we're talking about more than one key here. Bringing up the menus is done with a CTRL-click. Why not Alt/Option, why not the Apple key? It's arbitrary, and it in no way shape or form as obvious as an additional mouse button. The fact is, the keyboard and mouse are separate devices, and your solution involves even thinking you need to coordinate between the two. This is better than having mouse functionality accomplished with buttons on the mouse, and keyboard keys stick to keyboard functionality?
Sorry, I've had to explain to too many people that think "you can't right-click on a Mac" to buy it. It's not intuitive to require combined input across multiple devices to accomplish a single task. Far too many people will assume it can't be done before making that connection. After all, you wouldn't expect to have to (or even be able to) hold a modifier key and press a button on a joystick or gamepad, and have it do something different. I think you highly underestimate the division between separate devices in peoples' minds - and I think that should be the ideal.
Not to mention that not every person has use of two hands, and even for those of us that do, I won't buy a rather arbitrary coordination of two hands and two input devices as being equally simple and intuitive as a simple action with one hand on one input device.
Many PC applications manage to not do this. Bad UI design is bad UI design. Having a one-button mouse does not prevent bad design. We have a different philosophy on this, and that's OK. I am not willing to sacrifice hardware functionality on the basis that some software developer may put it to bad use.
The more I can do one-handed with a mouse, and the less often I have to set down my Coca-Cola, the better.
Heh, my computer-novice family would throw a fit if I ever took their mouse away and just gave them one without a scroll wheel, let alone only one button. Of course, in the long run, as long as MacOS continues to support third-party multi-button mice, I only care with respect to laptop computers. And I accept that it would be really hard to release laptops with different numbers of buttons. I kinda like the idea of PowerBooks being 2-button and iBooks being 1-button, but I accept that it would be difficult to get some elements of the Mac community to go with that.
I think Apple ought to make it a BTO option and such, but really, as long as there is a way to get it, it's really not a big deal. I just wish there were a 2nd button on my PowerBook. And maybe even the "scroll area" on the touchpad like my girlfriend's HP would be nice. But let's not go down that road.
I hate you meeses to pieces
sheeze. I don't understand how some people get defensive if a customer states that they want to give their money to Apple for an elegant multi functional mouse. The last apple mouse I kept on my system was beige, and so was the system. I find windows Xp to be more fluid and graceful and responsive to the movements of my four button microsoft optic mouse. I can interact with the windows GUI with less work than it takes me on my mac. Maybe panther will improve mouse functionality, but really apple has no reason not to develop a sick ass looking wireless mouse with an ipod scrollwheel and programmable buttons to go along with my new 17" powerbook. Sure there are third party solutions, but its in my rights to WANT a well integrated solution from apple, because I know apple would do it better than anyone else. if Apple doesn't want to sell multi button mice, thats fine, Ive already given my money to microsoft
Also I think multi buttoned mice are more professional, if apple wants the business market to take them seriously, why not provide the option? Being able to cut copy and paste with one finger, is easier than using two hands. the current Apple mice suck, I like my clicking to be robust, but then again, I preferred the hockeypuck design so maybe its my taste.
sheeze. I don't understand how some people get defensive if a customer states that they want to give their money to Apple for an elegant multi functional mouse. The last apple mouse I kept on my system was beige, and so was the system. I find windows Xp to be more fluid and graceful and responsive to the movements of my four button microsoft optic mouse. I can interact with the windows GUI with less work than it takes me on my mac. Maybe panther will improve mouse functionality, but really apple has no reason not to develop a sick ass looking wireless mouse with an ipod scrollwheel and programmable buttons to go along with my new 17" powerbook. Sure there are third party solutions, but its in my rights to WANT a well integrated solution from apple, because I know apple would do it better than anyone else. if Apple doesn't want to sell multi button mice, thats fine, Ive already given my money to microsoft
Also I think multi buttoned mice are more professional, if apple wants the business market to take them seriously, why not provide the option? Being able to cut copy and paste with one finger, is easier than using two hands. the current Apple mice suck, I like my clicking to be robust, but then again, I preferred the hockeypuck design so maybe its my taste.
Steve Jobs take note!
It is evident that Apple should definitely consider making a "2+ Button Scroll Mouse", just look.
This discussion group has over 140 postings, as compared with the "Panther Q & A" discussion which has around 25 at this time.
The numbers don't lie, this has definitely struck a nerve in the community.
It is evident that Apple should definitely consider making a "2+ Button Scroll Mouse", just look.
This discussion group has over 140 postings, as compared with the "Panther Q & A" discussion which has around 25 at this time.
The numbers don't lie, this has definitely struck a nerve in the community.
FIRST, I'm a bit miffed that so many people think pro users = 2 button mouse users.
I use a single button mouse because it's more functional. I find it superior to 2 buttons when I need to click and drag hundreds of times in a design session. It definitely doesn't cause stress to my hand because I can rest my fingers on the mouse without fear of accidentally clicking and I can use my whole hand to click. Anything which reduces carpel tunnel or RSI is good ergonomics in my book. I started my computing life with a 2 button mouse on a different system and found moving to the 1 button Mac to be superior ergonomics.
SECOND. If you are after a 2 button choice that is designed to fit in with Apple design, why aren't you petitioning the 3rd party vendors as vigorously as you are petitioning Apple?
I use a single button mouse because it's more functional. I find it superior to 2 buttons when I need to click and drag hundreds of times in a design session. It definitely doesn't cause stress to my hand because I can rest my fingers on the mouse without fear of accidentally clicking and I can use my whole hand to click. Anything which reduces carpel tunnel or RSI is good ergonomics in my book. I started my computing life with a 2 button mouse on a different system and found moving to the 1 button Mac to be superior ergonomics.
SECOND. If you are after a 2 button choice that is designed to fit in with Apple design, why aren't you petitioning the 3rd party vendors as vigorously as you are petitioning Apple?