2008-09 Football Thread

[Jaffa Cake]

They should have taken the name of the Cosmos, the team playing for New York back in the NASL days of the 70s and 80s. Any team with Pele and Beckenbauer is legit.

There's a story (how true it is I don't know) that the Cosmos owner, on watching Beckenbauer's debut declared "Tell the Kraut to get his ass up front! We didn’t pay a million for the guy to hang around on defence."

Anyway, it seems my comments about Blackburn's chances this season have spurred Paul Ince into action – he's signed East Yorkshire's second finest goalkeeper Paul Robinson from Spurs for £3.5 million.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

There's a story (how true it is I don't know) that the Cosmos owner, on watching Beckenbauer's debut declared "Tell the Kraut to get his ass up front! We didn’t pay a million for the guy to hang around on defence."

....And their uniforms were designed by Ralph Lauren.

The Cosmos were something of a publicity stunt, but they had some great names on the team and in a very short time achieved the kind of recognition MLS needed twice as long to achieve with its more cautious (and ultimately more sensible) approach.

Anyway, it seems my comments about Blackburn's chances this season have spurred Paul Ince into action – he's signed East Yorkshire's second finest goalkeeper Paul Robinson from Spurs for £3.5 million.

....wouldn't it be funny if "England's number one goalkeeper" was playing in the second division?

MLS doesn't need Beckham, which is just seen as a stunt by the rest of the world, what it needs is 10 players that are playing in top teams across the world (Liverpool, United, AC Milan, Real, Barca et al) to raise interest.

I agree 100%. The Beckham thing is mostly for domestic consumption anyway...it will draw in X number of new fans, and the league is hoping that a decent percentage of them will stay with the league after Becks leaves it. The US has the talent pool, the money, and the fan base - in short, all the raw materials necessary to produce a truly internationally competitive domestic league and a great national side. All it takes is some time. Contrary to what some people think, I believe the US sports scene can support a much larger football league in terms of revenue, TV ratings, and recognition. The MLS has a lot of growing to do in the future.

 

[aloofman]

It's a sign of how low Robinson's stock is now that I haven't even seen his replacement play and I already think we've improved at the keeper position.

I'm optimistic that the U.S. actually doesn't have that far to go to be competitive in soccer. It's not as if we need the entire country to be focused on the sport to produce enough players to field a good team. The U.S. has five times the population of France and the UK. We can excel if soccer becomes even the fifth-most popular pro sport here. (The likelihood of surpassing American football, baseball, basketball, or stock car racing is low.)

Let's put it this way, pro hockey is barely a major sport in the U.S. now, but we're still competitive at the international level. And the future demographics for soccer are much better than for hockey.

So I think it CAN happen. But will it? I have no idea. Much ink has been wasted over the last 30 years by writers claiming that soccer is about to become a major sport in this country. My best guess is that it will have to be jump-started by a big success of some kind. Americans like to be winners. If we were to host the World Cup again, I think that would be a big boost, even bigger than in 1994. If we were to somehow over-overachieve and win the WC, it would be huge.

Also, the big gains the game has made here have only come in the last 15 years. The first generation of kids who have grown up watching MLS teams are only starting to mature enough to play professionally. But it's also not enough to be constantly hyping our potential. At some point we have to prove we've improved by winning a tournament, something we won't have a chance to do until the Confederations Cup next year.

 

[és:]

It's a sign of how low Robinson's stock is now that I haven't even seen his replacement play and I already think we've improved at the keeper position.

Gomez is a good keeper. He's not a Cech, Reina, Casillias or Buffon level, but he's the level below that. Much better than Robbinson.

I'm optimistic that the U.S. actually doesn't have that far to go to be competitive in soccer. It's not as if we need the entire country to be focused on the sport to produce enough players to field a good team. The U.S. has five times the population of France and the UK. We can excel if soccer becomes even the fifth-most popular pro sport here. (The likelihood of surpassing American football, baseball, basketball, or stock car racing is low.)

I don't agree with this. In England, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland and Germany football is a way of life for most young boys. We've had over a hundred years of football ingrained into us. The top sportsmen are cherry picked for football academies all around Europe.

If US gets 5th pick, it's going to go nowhere. It won't be at the level of Europe's top leagues (or the second league in the top three countries) if basketball, American football and baseball get first pick with Tennis and athletics also getting a fair crack of the whip.

Our Dads and Granddads teach us football from 2/3 years old, we play in primary school, after school clubs, in playgrounds and fields after school, the older kids teach the younger kids and then take football coaching at the weekends.

If we were to somehow over-overachieve and win the WC, it would be huge.

It's the biggest international single sport event in the world, it should darn well get people buzzing!

Although, it won't happen.

At some point we have to prove we've improved by winning a tournament, something we won't have a chance to do until the Confederations Cup next year.

It's going to take 10-15 years, at least, for the US to challenge for trophies on the international stage. That's if they plough money into recruiting the best youth talents in the states.

What shocks me is that in the land of bigger is better and winning is everything, they don't seem to care for a sport that is as beautiful as it is dramatic, a sport that is way bigger on a global scale than any other single sport. Strange.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Our Dads and Granddads teach us football from 2/3 years old...

One of the earliest things I remember is playing football with my dad in the tenfoot at the back of our house. I can remember that – even at that very early age – I was already aware that I wasn't very good at it.

What shocks me is that in the land of bigger is better and winning is everything, they don't seem to care for a sport that is as beautiful as it is dramatic, a sport that is way bigger on a global scale than any other single sport. Strange.

But as you say, the US national side has never really been competitive on the wider international stage – winning may be seen as everything, but if you're not winning anything it's hard to capture people's imagination. There's also the old chestnut of US audiences not being able to get their heads around a sport where a 90 minute match can end in a scoreless draw...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

What shocks me is that in the land of bigger is better and winning is everything, they don't seem to care for a sport that is as beautiful as it is dramatic, a sport that is way bigger on a global scale than any other single sport. Strange.

Two reasons for this:

1. Sport in America and the UK diverged over 100 years ago. So a sports tradition exists in the US that is every bit as dedicated as that in the UK, but it's focused on different sports.

2. We never win anything in football. What is there to cheer about? It's getting better with the growth of the MLS, but we can't compete in European competitions (and seldom in South American competitions), so there is no major silverware to win.

Football is still a major youth sport here though, so the groundwork has already been laid for youth development. But it will take time. And yes, most of the best athletes will still go to baseball/Gridiron Football/Basketball.

 

[Much Ado]

We never win anything in football. What is there to cheer about?

Perhaps that's the difference in UK-US attitudes towards sport

 

[swiftaw]

Finally

The Football Association are set to sanction a new rule that will mean only team captains will be permitted to talk to referees next season. (Daily Express)

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Perhaps that's the difference in UK-US attitudes towards sport

I disagree - it's hard to get anybody into a sport when the league is embryonic and the nation is uncompetitive internationally. If success had nothing to do with it Manchester United would have the same size fan base as Wycombe. Love for the sport is important, but so is success, in terms of building leagues and fan bases. And it takes time to develop new traditions.

The US has millions of football fans - but tens of millions of baseball, gridiron and basketball fans.

 

[aloofman]

I don't agree with this. In England, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland and Germany football is a way of life for most young boys. We've had over a hundred years of football ingrained into us. The top sportsmen are cherry picked for football academies all around Europe.

If US gets 5th pick, it's going to go nowhere. It won't be at the level of Europe's top leagues (or the second league in the top three countries) if basketball, American football and baseball get first pick with Tennis and athletics also getting a fair crack of the whip.

Actually that wasn't the point I was making. My point was that a nation as large as the U.S., with so much youth athletics, doesn't need to be obsessed with soccer to compete on the international level the way a smaller country would. And by "compete" I don't mean like a Brazil or Italy that everyone expects to be a favorite for the World Cup each time. I mean a country that people think can make some noise, or with a little luck, go all the way.

A country like Holland, for example. Holland's national team doesn't dominate, but it contends, often reaching the quarterfinals or semis of the WC or Euro. A small country like Holland competes because, indeed, the entire country is obsessed with soccer, every boy plays it from an early age, and they often keep playing it through adulthood. I'm saying that a country like the U.S., with 18 times more people than Holland, could produce a similar number of high-quality soccer players with only a fraction of the fan base and participation that Holland does. I'm saying that the U.S. is capable of it. Whether we WILL is still pretty up in the air.

It's going to take 10-15 years, at least, for the US to challenge for trophies on the international stage. That's if they plough money into recruiting the best youth talents in the states.

I think building up the MLS more is crucial to that. Right now the top athletes here imagine riches in other sports. No kids dream of stardom as a soccer player. The kids that DO become soccer stars got there because they love the game and it's all they've ever wanted to do. But there's not enough of those kids right now to develop a top national team. I don't know that it will take 10-15 years, but it's still quite a ways off.

What shocks me is that in the land of bigger is better and winning is everything, they don't seem to care for a sport that is as beautiful as it is dramatic, a sport that is way bigger on a global scale than any other single sport. Strange.

It depends on what you mean by "beautiful" and "dramatic". The casual U.S. sports fan watches a soccer game and often sees twenty minutes go by without a meaningful scoring chance and that end with no winner. To them that's not dramatic. They see players pretend to get injured and games often decided by penalty kicks, which they don't think of as beautiful. Compared to the sports they're used to watching, they feel like there's not much scoring or enough dramatic moments. I'm not saying they're right, just that they have a different definition of what makes sports entertaining. Of course, many of these same people are obsessed with a style of auto racing that only makes left turns around a big, symmetrical oval. It takes all kinds.

 

[Much Ado]

I disagree - it's hard to get anybody into a sport when the league is embryonic and the nation is uncompetitive internationally. If success had nothing to do with it Manchester United would have the same size fan base as Wycombe.

But how many of those Manchester United fans are real fans? My friends from Aldershot don't supported their team as glory supporters, I can tell you that.

And England are hardly competitive internationally.

I'm a Portsmouth supporter, and it's a sad truth that as an established, European side and as the FA Cup holders, sometimes it isn't as fun as the old days in the Championship.

I think you have a point about the league though. See, I don't think it's success that defines sport, it's the hope of success in the future. Even tiny Aldershot can dream of European football, or the FA Cup. So maybe that's the difference.

My 2 pints of lager.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

But how many of those Manchester United fans are real fans? My friends from Aldershot don't supported their team as glory supporters, I can tell you that.

Any team that enjoys a bit of success is going to get the glory-hunting bandwagon jumpers suddenly donning their shirt and proclaiming themselves life long fans – even we've attracted a load since the play off final, and the idea of City having glory hunter support is something that I really can't get my head around.

There's one chap I know who never showed any interest in the team or even been to a match (he's a Liverpool supporter who's never set foot inside Anfield in his life either), and would quite happily tell me how rubbish City were at any opportunity. However, when we made Wembley he was literally begging me to try and use my season pass to secure him a ticket. I also saw him at the victory parade, wearing his brand new City shirt and proclaiming loudly how ace we were.

Some people, eh?

 

[pachyderm]

the main difference is the fan. americans expect, and somehow, think they deserve a winner and a loser. and they think they have to have grand spectacle on top of it all, witness any and all stupid ass super bowl half time shows.

are we spoiled? God, yes. and, yes, it is a shame.

they( not me per se ) think if there isn't a 5O yard touchdown run, a three run homer, a slam dunk from the top of the key then there isn't anything happening... sad but true. i think americans in general are very spoiled and way to "ADD" when it comes to sport.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

the main difference is the fan. americans expect, and somehow, think they deserve a winner and a loser...

See, that's the thing – as a Hull City and England supporter, I've come to expect nothing less than glorious under-achievement. We get suspicious if we actually start winning stuff.

 

[és:]

I'm a Liverpool and Spain fan, so I'm pretty spoilt.

In the last while I've watched my team In the best European Cup final ever, the best FA Cup final ever, many top European nights including semi and quarter finals and another final. I've watch Spain win Euro 2008.

There is nothing that comes close to the European and FA Cup wins with Liverpool. I've never once felt like that about another sport or movie or play or book... It was amazing.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

There is nothing that comes close to the European and FA Cup wins with Liverpool. I've never once felt like that about another sport or movie or play or book... It was amazing.

Likewise, I struggle to think of anything that compares to that last fifteen minutes at Wembley last May – certainly apart from the birth of my daughter. Feeling so nervous that you feel that you're going to throw up, followed by complete elation when you know that you've done it and the team have achieved something they never have in over a century of struggle and disappointment – it's something that I'll never forget.

 

[és:]

Likewise, I struggle to think of anything that compares to that last fifteen minutes at Wembley last May – certainly apart from the birth of my daughter. Feeling so nervous that you feel that you're going to throw up, followed by complete elation when you know that you've done it and the team have achieved something they never have in over a century of struggle and disappointment – it's something that I'll never forget.

The feeling of utter dejection followed by 'omfg we've turned it around' style elation is unparalleled. I think we invest so much time and passion into our football clubs that when things go bad it hurts and when they are good, it's amazing.

When we won the European cup after being 3-0 down, then within 6 minutes we were level... we'll I just can't describe it.

Being promoted to the premiership must be quite some feeling. I think it'll really sink in when United, Arsenal and Liverpool come to your place to play.


It was a completely different feeling to the birth of my child. That was surreal to me and I was sort of out of body with lots of new found love. European cup final though, that was a completely different feeling, I was right in the moment, pure elation and glory and 1000's of other fans with me to share it with.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I certainly can't class myself as the same type of fan who grew up with football flowing through their veins, and a lot of football fans would probably call me a bandwagon supporter. I was pretty much destined to chose one of the big four since those are the teams seen regularly on TV in the states. If I had been exposed to all of the teams at once I probably may have chose a lesser side.

I tend to get involved while watching sporting events though, so every little up and down is a series of emotional highs and lows for me. I used to watch baseball that way, but I've been bored with sports in the US for a while. Getting into football has become a new outlet for me, and if anything I get even more excited or depressed than I did with baseball, beacause the flow of the game is unbroken and football fans in Europe create a great atmosphere.

 

[és:]

Have you ever managed to get to a game at Anfield, Lord?

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Have you ever managed to get to a game at Anfield, Lord?

I've never left the United States in my 27 years in this planet (brief forays into Canada don't count) Partly due to money (worked my own way through my undergraduate degree), partly due to school and partly due to bad luck on a few occasions where plans fell through for various reasons.

I'm shopping for a doctoral program right now and I'm seriously looking into programs in the UK and on the continent...I almost joined a program in the Netherlands but the timing didn't work out.

If I don't start school this coming year I want to do a vacation to the UK next fall, and one of my top priorities is to catch a Liverpool match. But I have to look into how the heck I'd get some tickets.

 

[és:]

I've never left the United States in my 27 years in this planet (brief forays into Canada don't count) Partly due to money (worked my own way through my undergraduate degree), partly due to school and partly due to bad luck on a few occasions where plans fell through for various reasons.

I'm shopping for a doctoral program right now and I'm seriously looking into programs in the UK and on the continent...I almost joined a program in the Netherlands but the timing didn't work out.

If I don't start school this coming year I want to do a vacation to the UK next fall, and one of my top priorities is to catch a Liverpool match. But I have to look into how the heck I'd get some tickets.

Yeah, I understand it's hard to get over.

When you do finally go, you'll love it. Picking a cup game or maybe even an early European cup game might give you a better chance to get a ticket as long as you apply as early as they go on sale.

 

[fleshman03]

Wow. I opened this thread and expected to talk about my New York Jets.

LMAO.
My Bad.

 

[és:]

Wow. I opened this thread and expected to talk about my New York Jets.

LMAO.
My Bad.

No, we're talking about football, the biggest sport on the planet. Not egg throwing.

 

[pachyderm]

I'm a Liverpool and Spain fan, so I'm pretty spoilt.

In the last while I've watched my team In the best European Cup final ever, the best FA Cup final ever, many top European nights including semi and quarter finals and another final. I've watch Spain win Euro 2008.

There is nothing that comes close to the European and FA Cup wins with Liverpool. I've never once felt like that about another sport or movie or play or book... It was amazing.

Yet you understand the value and appreciate a draw. and know what the term "a good draw" means. sure, you'd rather get the win. who wouldn't? but sometimes a draw is well earned... right?

Wow. I opened this thread and expected to talk about my New York Jets.

LMAO.
My Bad.

sssshhhh...here comes the wind up...he he... kinda like watching them play to a tie right?

 

[B&Wtoon]

Likewise, I struggle to think of anything that compares to that last fifteen minutes at Wembley last May – certainly apart from the birth of my daughter. Feeling so nervous that you feel that you're going to throw up, followed by complete elation when you know that you've done it and the team have achieved something they never have in over a century of struggle and disappointment – it's something that I'll never forget.

yeh, I have been exposed to the Hull City euphoria, as a mate up here is a long term season ticket holder at the KC/Boothferry Park and every time I call on him he’s watching a recording of that game and he says he watches the highlights every night before he goes to bed!

I think I have heard his Wembley memories so often I’m starting to believe I was there myself.
Although alas the 4 times I have been to Wembley my team got beat! But I never imagined they would get to Wembley when I started supporting them. – Enjoy the ride Hull City! (except for Sat 13.09.08)