2009-10 Football Thread

[Jaffa Cake]

Fascinating rundown. I can understand the problem fully...

As mentioned, geography and preconceptions are just a couple of the obstacles we have to overcome when it comes to acquiring new players. Fizzoid rightly mentions that we're among the favourites to be relegated which doesn't help us sell the club, but a whole host of other factors come into play as well – our relative lack of financial clout, a history devoid of winning anything of note (well, anything at all actually) and lack of genuine star names currently at the club all come into play to some degree.

These are all pretty obvious and well known reasons, which is why it's a bit tiring when experts repeatedly tell us people aren't signing for the club simply because of Brown's Manchester City team talk – also the same reason apparently that we didn't gain good results in the league in 2009. That argument really doesn't hold any water when you look at it, but it's an easy thing to latch on to and means our favourite pundits don't have to waste their time and energy considering the actual reasons why we may be having some transfer-related difficulties at the moment. Repeat this sort of thing often enough, and it soon becomes regarded as incontestable fact...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Man City to pluck from the Arsenal tree again

I can't understand Arsenal, unless they just don't have any money. How long will the gooner fans sit by and watch the club dismantle a team that hasn't won anything in a few seasons, and still believe a pared-down version of that team will win something? They weren't deep enough last season, and they certainly aren't deep enough now. They still have some world class players, but if RVP or Cesc or Arshavin get hurt they are in big trouble. I just don't understand what the club thinks it is doing....

Repeat this sort of thing often enough, and it soon becomes regarded as incontestable fact...

The team-talk affair is pure nonsense, I agree. It was an unusual spectacle., so the press attach an outsize importance to it. Brown has turned out to be something of a magnet for criticism, the press seems to see some egotism in his character and have latched on to it. It's a catch-22 for sure: play basic solid football and survive - people say you are boring. Try to play Galacticos-style football and you become the next West Brom or Derby County in terms of results. But survival is survival. Get 10 big lads out there and lump it up the middle if that's what it takes to get some points. SAF, Rafa and Arsene can all go to hell if they complain. At least, that's what I'd say in your place.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

It's a catch-22 for sure: play basic solid football and survive - people say you are boring. Try to play Galacticos-style football and you become the next West Brom or Derby County in terms of results. But survival is survival. Get 10 big lads out there and lump it up the middle if that's what it takes to get some points. SAF, Rafa and Arsene can all go to hell if they complain. At least, that's what I'd say in your place.

Bizarrely though, results wise we were at our best when we tried to play good football, and when we became more conservative that's when results started to slide. You'd expect the opposite to be more the case, but that wasn't what happened funnily enough.

Our win at the Emirates came about as we fielded an attacking 4-3-3 formation – the last thing you'd expect a team of our standing to do away at a top four club – and when we got in Manchester United's faces at Old Trafford we scared the life out of them. Add in away wins against the likes of Spurs and battling draws against the likes of Liverpool, and it's clear that when we went out to play without fear we generally did well. Once we started putting players behind the ball and trying to hold out for draws against better opposition though, that's when we suffered.

 

[Fizzoid]

I can't understand Arsenal, unless they just don't have any money. How long will the gooner fans sit by and watch the club dismantle a team that hasn't won anything in a few seasons, and still believe a pared-down version of that team will win something? They weren't deep enough last season, and they certainly aren't deep enough now. They still have some world class players, but if RVP or Cesc or Arshavin get hurt they are in big trouble. I just don't understand what the club thinks it is doing....

As I already said in a previous post about Arsenal, many fans are already very unhappy. I mean:
"Simply spending money does not make a team or guarantee success," said chief executive Ivan Gazidis.
Neither does selling off decent players and not replacing them, or replacing them with youngsters. Ok, so Wenger's done well bringing through younger players that Arsenal have developed, but the days of the 'Busby Babes' and Fergies Wonder Kids went when billionaires started buying into the Premiership. It's all about the money now (and having someone who knows how to spend it) and unless Arsenal find the next Henry they're only going to go backwards. I did think Villa were going to buck the big bucks trend, but they died off towards the end of the season and I can't see them being as successful this season either. Everton and Fulham look solid considering what they've spent (or haven't, as is the case) and I can see Everton getting the 4th place spot, with Man City getting 5th and Arsenal 6th

 

[aloofman]

I can't understand Arsenal, unless they just don't have any money. How long will the gooner fans sit by and watch the club dismantle a team that hasn't won anything in a few seasons, and still believe a pared-down version of that team will win something? They weren't deep enough last season, and they certainly aren't deep enough now. They still have some world class players, but if RVP or Cesc or Arshavin get hurt they are in big trouble. I just don't understand what the club thinks it is doing....

I think that because of payments on Emirates Stadium, they have plenty of money but not much financial flexibility. If they can stay in the top four, they get the CL riches to keep themselves there and maybe win the whole CL if they get hot and a few bounces go their way. But since they clearly don't have the money that Man U and Chelsea have, it doesn't seem like they'll compete strongly for the league title. In terms of a balance between profits and competitiveness, this plan has gone pretty well. Almost any team would kill to be in their position now.

The big danger is that if they fall to fifth or lower, then the big money from Champions' League games disappears. Then they might have to sell off more players, which could make them less competitive. The current plan is only viable if they stay in the top four. Wenger's magic has kept them in it for a long time, but one has to think that eventually they're going to stumble.

As a Spurs fan, I welcome that.

 

[DiamondMac]

It is always refreshing to hear about a non-Big 4 team and their struggles

At some point, the Premier League will need to rein in the ever-growing disparity between the Top 4 and others.

Having spent some years in the States now, I actually have come to respect and enjoy the salary capped NFL league.

 

[aloofman]

Having spent some years in the States now, I actually have come to respect and enjoy the salary capped NFL league.

I find it amusing that the top football leagues are just about as ultra-capitalist as can be found anywhere, in countries that often spurn capitalism as unfair. But the most popular sport in the most capitalist country is run like a socialist cartel.

 

[DiamondMac]

But the most popular sport in the most capitalist country is run like a socialist cartel.

Hell, if my company could make as much money as the NFL, maybe I should turn Socialist

 

[Lord Blackadder]

It's all about the money now (and having someone who knows how to spend it) and unless Arsenal find the next Henry they're only going to go backwards.

Interesting, and I couldn't agree more. The sad part is that even if you find the next Henry, Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and Real Madrid will step up with staggering offers and he might go anyway. Arsenal has always been a team I've enjoyed watching and I can only imagine how frustrated the fans must be these days.

In terms of a balance between profits and competitiveness, this plan has gone pretty well. Almost any team would kill to be in their position now...

...The big danger is that if they fall to fifth or lower, then the big money from Champions' League games disappears.

In the Premier League, as in international business, stasis is seen as regression. Which is a bit stupid but there it is. If you aren't improving every year people say you're going backwards. I think Arsenal is good enough to finish in the top four - they are still better than Everton and Manchester City on paper. BUT, those two teams might go on a run and take that final CL spot.

Having spent some years in the States now, I actually have come to respect and enjoy the salary capped NFL league.

There are advantages, but you also have to remember that the NFL is the only game in town - it doesn't not really have to compete with any other gridiron football league (except, to a certain extent, for college football, but they are not direct competitors). In Europe, leagues can be in direct competition with each other for viewership, money, players, and prestige. This pressure may keep leagues from experimenting with their structure as much as might otherwise be able to do. A salary cap in the Premier League would mean players like Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, Berbatov, Torres, Fabregas and others would go to Spain or Italy.

In the NFL, the league runs everything. MLS has a similar model in a lot of ways - there is a salary cap, broken to a certain extent by the Beckham rule with designated players, but still controlled. Also, when a player transfers out of the league, the buying team must deal with MLS rather than individual clubs. Clubs are less likely to get into financial trouble because the league monitors things and there is a certain amount of profit-sharing. No MLS or NFL owner would be allowed to pump large amounts of a personal fortune into a club to buy all the best players like Abramovich and others have done.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

I find it amusing that the top football leagues are just about as ultra-capitalist as can be found anywhere, in countries that often spurn capitalism as unfair. But the most popular sport in the most capitalist country is run like a socialist cartel.

I was going to make the same comment when I read DiamondMac's post. It's always struck me as being a curious state of affairs, to be honest.

As his Lordship mentions though, the global nature of the game makes a salary cap all but unworkable. If the Premier League imposed one then we'd see many of the top players defect to leagues where they could earn unhindered. To a degree, we're already seeing this happen – the tax laws in Spain now mean foreign nationals can take advantage lower tax rates than in England, is it just coincidence that there's been such an exodus of talent there this summer?

On the subject of clubs in financial trouble, as I've said before it disgusts me that clubs can face oblivion for owing less money then a top Premier League player earns in the space of a week. Livingstone are just the latest team to hit the headlines with their problems, many more will follow.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

On the subject of clubs in financial trouble, as I've said before it disgusts me that clubs can face oblivion for owing less money then a top Premier League player earns in the space of a week. Livingstone are just the latest team to hit the headlines with their problems, many more will follow.

...When, on the other hand, clubs like Real Madrid can take out dodgy loans every year and have a seemingly bottomless resource pool.

The English league system highlights the disparity in wealth pretty nicely - there are entire leagues near the bottom with far less total money than a single club at the top.

This disparity brings us neatly to the Beckham-in-MLS affair, which is a microcosm of the whole issue. Becks is clearing over 30 million ($) per year with the Galaxy in salary. Some of the starters on the team are making less than 30 thousand dollars per year in wages. Some of them share apartments because they can't afford to live in their own place. And people wonder why the dressing room is troubled?

 

[aloofman]

Becks is clearing over 30 million ($) per year with the Galaxy in salary.

He's not making nearly that much in actual salary. The most reliable number I've heard is about $7.5 million, plus he gets a cut from jersey sales and other merchandising and endorsements through the team. But your point is exactly right, that he's making orders of magnitude more than his teammates.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

He's not making nearly that much in actual salary. The most reliable number I've heard is about $7.5 million, plus he gets a cut from jersey sales and other merchandising and endorsements through the team. But your point is exactly right, that he's making orders of magnitude more than his teammates.

Ah, Mea Culpa then. I heard 30ish (when promotions and jersey sales are included) being mentioned, but I do know that the "$250 million" number mentioned when he arrived is a fabrication involving a lot of fuzzy math. Still, 7.5 million, that's 7.5 times more than the next highest paid player (Donovan), who is himself making almost twice as much as the next next best paid player...

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Today, Hull City will mainly be turned down by Darren Bent.

 

[OllyW]

Today, Hull City will mainly be turned down by Darren Bent.

I'm always impressed with the comments on thisishullandeastriding.co.uk

I know someone (FC fan) who's having cow pie for tea for the hundred consequetive night. Now thats news.

 

[Fizzoid]

Today, Hull City will mainly be turned down by Darren Bent.

£15m? You must be getting desperate.
Suppose the sales pitch is "it's nearer to London, innit!"

 

[Jaffa Cake]

I'm always impressed with the comments on thisishullandeastriding.co.uk

I'm glad someone is!

£15m? You must be getting desperate.
Suppose the sales pitch is "it's nearer to London, innit!"

I can't see us bidding £15million on one player, to be honest. I think it's even less likely Bent would come here.

Another name that's cropped up again is Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink – the former Celtic man is now a free agent, so wouldn't command a transfer free. To tempt him, we could rename Hull's Hessle Road to Hesselink Road in his honour.

 

[Fizzoid]

Why not just call it the "Hessle Link"

Well, at least you're getting linked with players coming in, where as we're just getting linked with players leaving

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Well, at least you're getting linked with players coming in, where as we're just getting linked with players leaving

Indeed, but the problem is none of the players we're linked with want to come!

 

[swiftaw]

So, it turns out that as well as fantasy football, the premierleague website has another game, called I Know The Score. Essentially it is a game where you have to predict the results of Premier League games.

If anyone is interested I have created a private league for Macrumors so PM me if you'd like the code to join.

 

[xUKHCx]

Hillsborough files to be opened

Families who lost their loved ones in the Hillsborough disaster have renewed hope of a full disclosure after a meeting with the home secretary.

Alan Johnson promised the Hillsborough Support Group that documents relating to the 1989 tragedy would be released in the next three months.

The papers, containing evidence from all authorities involved in the 1989 tragedy will not have any redactions.

A spokesman said the Home Office was committed to "a full disclosure".

This is pretty major in my opinion, shame the police footage that went missing won't turn up though but it should provide a very good incite into what happened and help those who lost loved ones.


One footballing point to this story though is that depending on the release shedule it will most likely come during the season which I think is wrong. It should have been sorted out for the off season so the club can sort itself out.


Arbeloa off for £3.5million, that is a baragin if you ask me. Really like the guy and he has done well. All the best for the future

 

[Fizzoid]

Arbeloa off for £3.5million, that is a baragin if you ask me. Really like the guy and he has done well. All the best for the future

Indeed, does seem very cheap considering what players are going for at the moment. However, there's only a year left on his contract and with the arrival of Glen Johnson his chances of first team football are more limited, so I guess he was always going to want a move away.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Arbeloa was a solid defender, and, as you've both said, 3.5 million is cheap in today's market. He'll have his hands full at Real Madrid I imagine.

 

[gauchogolfer]

What the hell are Arsenal up to in this transfer season?
Let's see who's departed, and who's come in.

Departed:

• Adebayor
• Toure

Arrived:

• Vermaelen

I don't like the balance of those two lists. Nor do I like the lack of activity in trying to really improve the team. I have a lot of faith in AW, but that only takes you so far when there's no hardware to show for it recently.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Arbeloa was a solid defender, and, as you've both said, 3.5 million is cheap in today's market. He'll have his hands full at Real Madrid I imagine.

Is this story accurate – I find it hard to believe Real are signing a defender?

As for Arsenal's recruitment, it's something they need to address. I think it's notable that Manchester City have moved in to capture two key players of theirs. Given that their ultimate goal is to move into the top four and claim a lucrative Champions League place, could it be that Manchester City are attempting to use the transfer market to weaken the team that they arguably stand the most chance of displacing?

So, it turns out that as well as fantasy football, the premierleague website has another game, called I Know The Score. Essentially it is a game where you have to predict the results of Premier League games.

If anyone is interested I have created a private league for Macrumors so PM me if you'd like the code to join.

Ooo! I'll be up for that – I wasn't aware of that competition, actually. It'll be nice to have that running alongside the MacRumors Fantasy League, which all right thinking folk will surely have signed up to already.