2009 Formula One Thread

[MOFS]

I'll be amazed if this is truely smoothed over and not just a band-aid only to come up next year.

Team announced by the FIA. * means conditional.

Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro Ferrari
Scuderia Toro Rosso STR TBA
Red Bull Racing Red Bull Racing TTBA
At&T Williams Williams Toyota
Force India F1 Team Force India Mercedes
Campos Grand Prix Campos Cosworth
Manor Grand Prix Manor Cosworth
Team US F1 Team US F1 Cosworth
Vodafone McLaren Mercedes* McLaren Mercedes
BMW Sauber F1 Team* BMW Sauber
Renault F1 Team* Renault
Panasonic Toyota Racing* Toyota
Brawn GP Formula One Team* Brawn TBA

Predictably, the FOTA teams are complaining. My favourite quote from Autosport is here, and I've highlighted the part I find annoys me about this whole deal...

FOTA will continue to act constructively on resolving differences with the FIA. Regrettably FOTA is being forced to outline in detail our objections to the new arbitrary FIA proposals and we will release details of our concerns in the near future which will constructively explain why the FIA's proposals are bad for the future of Formula 1, the jobs of those employed within the motor-racing industry and especially the millions of loyal fans who are dismayed and confused at the internal bickering within our sport," added the statement.

Forced to outline their details?! This just tells me they're gonna have to make-up/ write down what their specific objections. No worries here about a breakaway series from FOTA – they couldn't organise a P***-up in a brewery.

 

[Superman07]

I think the point may be that they have to take any of these steps, to include writing down specific issues. However, I do see your point if you read it a certain way.

Meanwhile the drama continues.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76093

The European Automobile Manufacturer's Association (ACEA) has stepped into the row engulfing Formula 1 - and claimed that the current governance of the sport cannot continue.

What an entertaining Friday!!

 

[MOFS]

I think the point may be that they have to take any of these steps, to include writing down specific issues. However, I do see your point if you read it a certain way.

Meanwhile the drama continues.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76093

What an entertaining Friday!!

I just get the feeling that Ferrari in particular are NEVER gonna accept a budget cap. In my view, FOTA don't seem to have it clear in their head what they're specifically arguing about.

EDIT: The ACEA seem a bit biased to be weighing into this argument – all the manufacturers in the sport are members of it!

 

[Don't panic]

I just get the feeling that Ferrari in particular are NEVER gonna accept a budget cap. In my view, FOTA don't seem to have it clear in their head what they're specifically arguing about.

methink you are using those anti-red-tinted glasses too much .

 

[neiltc13]

I watched the tail end of the A1GP season and it was really quite exciting. Far more so than I expected from a one-car series. They chose to go to the Portimao circuit, which I firmly believe should be on the F1 calendar - it's fantastic.

 

[MOFS]

methink you are using those anti-red-tinted glasses too much .

hehe I used to be a huge Ferrari fan (I had a collection of scale models). My dislike for their actions at the moment is based on my impression that they feel that F1 cannot survive without them and not the other way round, which lends them an enormous strength of bargaining. I feel these talks are as much about cost-cutting as they are about redressing the balance.

 

[Superman07]

Doesn't FIA get a huge chunk of money from the rights fees for both advertising, track/city participation and broadcast rights? If they are so concerned about new teams being able to join, why don't they give out some of that money to new teams for 2 or 3 years to help them get going to the point where they can do well enough to bring in their own sponsorship?

 

[pachyderm]

Got this from another site. Definitely not final or official...

2O1O Prospective Driver Line Up:

Brawn: Jenson Button, Bruno Senna
Red Bull: Mark Webber, Sebastian Vettel
Toyota: Timo Glock, Kazuki Nakajima
Ferrari: Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa
McLaren: Lewis Hamilton, Nico Rosberg
Williams: Heikki Kovalainen, Kamui Kobayashi
Renault: Fernando Alonso, Romain Grosjean
BMW: Robert Kubica, Nick Heidfeld
Toro Rosso: Sebastien Buemi, Robert Wickens
Force India: Adrian Sutil, Paul di Resta
USF1: Sebastien Bourdais, Jonathan Summerton
Campos Grand Prix: Giorgio Pantano, Vitaly Petrov
Manor: Lucas di Grassi, Oliver Turvey

No Jarno? I thought he was signed through '1O? No?

 

[MOFS]

Got this from another site. Definitely not final or official...

2O1O Prospective Driver Line Up:

Brawn: Jenson Button, Bruno Senna
Red Bull: Mark Webber, Sebastian Vettel
Toyota: Timo Glock, Kazuki Nakajima
Ferrari: Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa
McLaren: Lewis Hamilton, Nico Rosberg
Williams: Heikki Kovalainen, Kamui Kobayashi
Renault: Fernando Alonso, Romain Grosjean
BMW: Robert Kubica, Nick Heidfeld
Toro Rosso: Sebastien Buemi, Robert Wickens
Force India: Adrian Sutil, Paul di Resta
USF1: Sebastien Bourdais, Jonathan Summerton
Campos Grand Prix: Giorgio Pantano, Vitaly Petrov
Manor: Lucas di Grassi, Oliver Turvey

No Jarno? I thought he was signed through '1O? No?

Jarno's contract runs out at the end of the year. Wasn't quick Nick one of the guys with his place in threat? Kobayashi is Toyota's test driver, now in GP2. In other words, seems a speculative list at best!

BTW Brawn believes his team is gonna be in F1 next year. The sniping has continued nevertheless, with the FIA claiming that they were very close to a deal, before they were scupperred.

EDIT: According to James Allen, the teams sabotaging the deal are believed to be Toyota and Renault. Interesting the ACEA (European Car Manufacturers)'s chairman is the president of Renault. The FIA have responded to their press release last Friday, citing that Porsche are supporting their stance.

 

[Superman07]

Porsche is siding with the FIA? How do they have much of a say wrt F1?

 

[MOFS]

Porsche is siding with the FIA? How do they have much of a say wrt F1?

They don't. The point is that the ACEA portrayed itself as uniformly against the FIA, whereas at least one manufacturer agrees with their proposals. It is also important to note that no NEW manufacturers applied for a 2010 spot, showing the potential for future further loss of manufacturers with no replacements.

 

[Superman07]

FIA released a statement today stating they are going to push forward with their 40M Euro limit for next year since an agreement cannot be reached. Personally, I'm beginning to find myself more excited at the prospect of a breakaway series than this current season!

 

[Qwertylizer]

Personally, I'm beginning to find myself more excited at the prospect of a breakaway series than this current season!

Me too. "Who'll win the next race?" -> "Button." -> Yahooooo

 

[Superman07]

Bernnie and Max don't want to see their empire collapse.

In light of the success of the FIA's Championship, FOTA - made up of participants who come and go as it suits them – has set itself two clear objectives: to take over the regulation of Formula 1 from the FIA and to expropriate the commercial rights for itself. These are not objectives which the FIA can accept.

Perhaps they should just say - WE don't want to give up control or money. Instead they try and blame it on FOTA.

 

[Don't panic]

Bernnie and Max don't want to see their empire collapse.

In light of the success of the FIA's Championship, FOTA - made up of participants who come and go as it suits them – has set itself two clear objectives: to take over the regulation of Formula 1 from the FIA and to expropriate the commercial rights for itself. These are not objectives which the FIA can accept

.​

Perhaps they should just say - WE don't want to give up control or money. Instead they try and blame it on FOTA.

communists!

 

[benlangdon]

i say all the teams go along with the same rules as this year and completely ignore the fia.

 

[CWallace]

Bernnie and Max don't want to see their empire collapse.

Which is why they're playing hard-ball with FOTA. In the past, they've been able to play the teams off against each other to maintain their control of the sport.

Even with Williams and Force India breaking ranks, FOTA is still about the most organized front the teams have put forward that I can think of - at least in "recent memory".

 

[MOFS]

i say all the teams go along with the same rules as this year and completely ignore the fia.

What? All 8 of them? With 2 from Red Bull? The idea that FOTA on one hand want to reduce costs and in the other set up their own championship is just mind-boggling.

 

[Superman07]

I think there is a difference between reducing costs, gradually mind you, and obliterating budgets. Wasn't McLaren and Ferrari (even Toyota) estimated budget around $400M? Suddenly they are expected to spend 1/10th that and compete at the same level?!

Edit: This is old, but gives an idea of the disparity that could exist. This was before I started following F1, but I imagine at that point Jag wasn't too competitive with Ferrari?

http://www.fastmachines.com/f1/the-price-of-formula-1/

Also, this shows how far back this goes and that Eccelston "bought out" the teams in 04. I think since then they have seen it was not in their favor. Bernnie is trying to maintain control of the rights and cash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_Group

I particularly find it interesting where, earlier today, statements were made of, "to take over the regulation of Formula 1 from the FIA and to expropriate the commercial rights for itself. These are not objectives which the FIA can accept." However, in 1974 a crack commando unit....erm I mean .... "In 1974 the Formula One Constructors Association, or FOCA, was founded in order to increase commercial organisation of Formula One for the benefit of the racing teams." Yet today rationale is provide for the benefit of FIA/FOM NOT the teams.

 

[Don't panic]

I think there is a difference between reducing costs, gradually mind you, and obliterating budgets. Wasn't McLaren and Ferrari (even Toyota) estimated budget around $400M? Suddenly they are expected to spend 1/10th that and compete at the same level?!

Edit: This is old, but gives an idea of the disparity that could exist. This was before I started following F1, but I imagine at that point Jag wasn't too competitive with Ferrari?

i remember reading that recently it was something like toyota 500, mclaren 400, and ferrari 350.

i think the major problems really are power management, governance and the sharing of the pie.
In particular Mosley's continuous power trips and whimsical rule changes to maintain power have reached the limit with the teams (i believe renault and toyota in particular are the 'ring leaders', even if ferrari has the front jig).

The budget cap is important but secondary to the rest, although certainly if the proposed budget was a reasonable (and plannable) 3 year plan, FOTA would have not much of an argument on their side.

I particularly find it interesting where, earlier today, statements were made of, "to take over the regulation of Formula 1 from the FIA and to expropriate the commercial rights for itself. These are not objectives which the FIA can accept." However, in 1974 a crack commando unit....erm I mean .... "In 1974 the Formula One Constructors Association, or FOCA, was founded in order to increase commercial organisation of Formula One for the benefit of the racing teams." Yet today rationale is provide for the benefit of FIA/FOM NOT the teams.

yes and the leaders of the rebel FOCA against FISA (that in many ways reflected the position of today's FOTA and FIA) were..... Bernie and Max!!!!

 

[SpookTheHamster]

I think it's absolutely hilarious that Bernie and Max seem to have forgotten the FISA/FOCA war. In his long diatribe Max described how it was 'unacceptable' for the teams to want commercial control of F1, which is exactly what FOCA fought for and won, only for Bernie to take everything for himself.

We'll find out on Friday though, and I really hope FOTA stick to their guns and get thrown out. It seems the best way to reach an agreement with the FIA is to get the FIA out of the series entirely.

 

[Superman07]

I hope this is just an attempt to "look" like they are trying their best (the FOTA).

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76263

In reality I wish they'd just say forget it and break away. It would clear up all this drama and allow for focus on the remainder of the race season for the next month (yes, I'm assuming Jeson will tie up the championship quickly).

Three week break until Germany after the BGP?!

 

[pachyderm]

Three week break until Germany after the BGP?!

feh!

 

[benlangdon]

In reality I wish they'd just say forget it and break away.

me to. i want them to just man up to the fia and not be slapped around.

i heard someone say that all the teams together spend about 2 bill at least a year. 40 mill cap ( 8 teams?) would have a total 320 mil spent a year. thats 6 1/4 times less than what they usually spend.

 

[MOFS]

me to. i want them to just man up to the fia and not be slapped around.

i heard someone say that all the teams together spend about 2 bill at least a year. 40 mill cap ( 8 teams?) would have a total 320 mil spent a year. thats 6 1/4 times less than what they usually spend.

You do realise the £40million doesn't include drivers, marketing etc?

But when you analyse the total cost for a manufacturer it will still be uncomfortably high, even with a €50 million cost cap. Take Ferrari: with €50 million on the chassis and racing, add the same again for drivers, about €80 million for engines and another €20 million for marketing and you have a total spend of €200 million. Perhaps that is less that the €400 to €500 million their lawyer said a top team is spending now, but surely it is enough for a team to spend on entering two cars in 20 races a year?