2009 Formula One Thread

[Qwertylizer]

It's all about Ecclestone's money. Mosley said something like: "They try to take the authority from us (me and Bernie) and at the end steal Bernie's money."

Pretty scary that the whole F1 is based on one man's money.

 

[bartelby]

It's all about Ecclestone's money. Mosley said something like: "They try to take the authority from us (me and Bernie) and at the end steal Bernie's money."

Pretty scary that the whole F1 is based on one man's money.

I thought the money belonged to Mrs Ecclestone...

 

[takao]

yeah i think that it's for the F1 if i hear Bernie making comments like "the f1 existed for 60 years and will continue further 60 years"

awfully similar to Erich Honekers "The wall be still standing in hundred of years" from 1989

edit: about the "boring old european track" discussion

many were thrown out because they couldn't afford to pay the ever increasing fees of which 50% go directly in bernies pockets

and who designed those tracks/ demanded reworks and changes to tracks ? oh yeah the FIA and F1
and with what did we end up ? just look at how they redesigned the iconic Hockenheim ring into an absolute snoozefest

and how much money do people expect those tracks in dubai, turkey, singapore, and china make ?...i can tell you: they are just payed for by governments, sheiks etc. as prestige projects and operate at a loss
just a little fact: last year in turkey 8 000 tickets (that's no typo) were sold for the whole F1 racing weekend and the rest were "free entry"

there are 4 Formula one drivers from germany and yet more and more racing tracks are made outside of europe ... what does the F1 want ? a racing series were only TV cameras sit besides the track and everybody watches from home ? per pay tv i suppose ? that is simply the wrong direction and the FIA doesn't get it

the F1 is (more was) about teams going right up to the technical and physical limits and taking risks and not about "everybody should be able to win with little money and completely safe"
the current regulations are simply non sensical in many points like having to use soft and hard tires in a race, then the fuel limits, then the idiotic qualifying etc.

since 10 years they are constantly changing the rules "to make overtaking easier, to make driving safer, to make the cars slower, to safe costs, to attract more fans" yet they have achieved exactly the opposite

 

[MOFS]

since 10 years they are constantly changing the rules "to make overtaking easier, to make driving safer, to make the cars slower, to safe costs, to attract more fans" yet they have achieved exactly the opposite

The problem is, I believe, the amount of money teams are spending at the moment. Aerodynamic changes make up, IMHO, over 60% of the speed of the car, and teams have become increasingly good at improving that through CAD, windtunnel and supercomputer advancement – ie every increasing costs funding these. Today's fastest lap was faster than last years FFS! We have this ridiculous speed of evolution of advancement of the cars, and it is this mindless grabbing of tenths of seconds that has to change. The era in which the team spending the most in a season has to change, otherwise we end up with a situation like the Premiership,

 

[takao]

The problem is, I believe, the amount of money teams are spending at the moment. Aerodynamic changes make up, IMHO, over 60% of the speed of the car, and teams have become increasingly good at improving that through CAD, windtunnel and supercomputer advancement – ie every increasing costs funding these. Today's fastest lap was faster than last years FFS! We have this ridiculous speed of evolution of advancement of the cars, and it is this mindless grabbing of tenths of seconds that has to change. The era in which the team spending the most in a season has to change, otherwise we end up with a situation like the Premiership,

well hardly surprising if FIA limits/freezes engine development that the teams are then looking somewhere else

IMHO they should scrap the current rule book and start over new:

1. dimension/minimum weight/4 open wheels:
2. driver safety
3. fixed amount of fuel / maximum weight of batteries _which every year gets reduced by 5%_
fuels allowed: all commercial available fuels: gasoline, diesel,electricity etc.

no fuel pitstops

no restriction on engine, transmission development

at end of race remaining/unused fuel gets measured: teams which used least amount of fuel gets bonus points for construction championship (if a car fails to finish it get's no bonus)

edit: oh and teams should be free to decide if they want to start with 1 cars ... if a team has little money it can start with only 1 car if it wants

 

[CWallace]

It's all about Ecclestone's money. Mosley said something like: "They try to take the authority from us (me and Bernie) and at the end steal Bernie's money."

Pretty scary that the whole F1 is based on one man's money.

about the "boring old european track" discussion

many were thrown out because they couldn't afford to pay the ever increasing fees of which 50% go directly in bernies pockets

and how much money do people expect those tracks in dubai, turkey, singapore, and china make ?...i can tell you: they are just payed for by governments, sheiks etc. as prestige projects and operate at a loss

And that is why we're losing the "classic tracks" for new tracks out in the middle of nowhere. Bernie would hold a race in Antarctica if the organizers would offer him a $50 million sanctioning fee.

Bernie doesn't care how many people are in the stands because he doesn't get a cut of that. So Silverstone able to sell more seats on a Friday than Bahrain can all race weekend means nothing to him. What matters is Bahrain will pay him a higher sanctioning fee than Silverstone will so he will choose Bahrain over Britain to hold a race even though most of the teams are from Britain.

He also knows the British public will watch the Bahrain race on television and he does get a cut from that so better to have nobody in the stands in Bahrain than full stands in Britain so long as everybody in Britain is tuned to the BBC and watching the Bahrain race.

 

[MOFS]

well hardly surprising if FIA limits/freezes engine development that the teams are then looking somewhere else

IMHO they should scrap the current rule book and start over new:

1. dimension/minimum weight/4 open wheels:
2. driver safety
3. fixed amount of fuel / maximum weight of batteries _which every year gets reduced by 5%_
fuels allowed: all commercial available fuels: gasoline, diesel,electricity etc.

no fuel pitstops

no restriction on engine, transmission development

at end of race remaining/unused fuel gets measured: teams which used least amount of fuel gets bonus points for construction championship (if a car fails to finish it get's no bonus)

edit: oh and teams should be free to decide if they want to start with 1 cars ... if a team has little money it can start with only 1 car if it wants

The problem atm IMHO, is that teams are spending money on the same problems. I like the Red Bull because of it's unique pull-rod suspencion, and the Brawn because of it's novel interpretation to the front wing/ rear wing problems. We really haven't had a unique idea since Sergio Rinland's twin hull idea back in the early 2000s for Sauber (which lead to the the "tusk" nose of Williams). Improving on an existing idea is expensive but reliable; creating a new one is relatively cheap (you only have to nail a quick version for it to work and become worthwhile), but unreliable.

I like some of those ideas. Increasing fuel efficiency is always worthwhile. Maybe a fastest lap competition might be worthwhile? Just for Kimi?!

 

[takao]

The problem atm IMHO, is that teams are spending money on the same problems. I like the Red Bull because of it's unique pull-rod suspencion, and the Brawn because of it's novel interpretation to the front wing/ rear wing problems. We really haven't had a unique idea since Sergio Rinland's twin hull idea back in the early 2000s for Sauber (which lead to the the "tusk" nose of Williams). Improving on an existing idea is expensive but reliable; creating a new one is relatively cheap (you only have to nail a quick version for it to work and become worthwhile), but unreliable.

I like some of those ideas. Increasing fuel efficiency is always worthwhile. Maybe a fastest lap competition might be worthwhile? Just for Kimi?!

well perhaps not only fuel economy bonus at the end of the year might be added but also a "reliability" bonus for cars which had least breakdowns

of some might then go for less downforce to get efficiency up .. some might go the hybrid route ... others might go for diesel engines

at least with a yearly 5% fuel usage reduction teams are pressed to develop new drive-trains nearly every year

and if one year a team dominates the next year might be completely different if they can't get 5% more efficiency out of their engine

 

[MOFS]

well perhaps not only fuel economy bonus at the end of the year might be added but also a "reliability" bonus for cars which had least breakdowns

of some might then go for less downforce to get efficiency up .. some might go the hybrid route ... others might go for diesel engines

at least with a yearly 5% fuel usage reduction teams are pressed to develop new drive-trains nearly every year

and if one year a team dominates the next year might be completely different if they can't get 5% more efficiency out of their engine

I think the thing we can agree on is innovation through more than just one avenue. Next years ban on refuelling should make it interesting (Massa appears to use more fuel than others, for example), and other ways need to be found to allow more variety.

 

[benlangdon]

wow i was trying to find pics of the drivers helmets, jeezz they are all horrible pictures, instead i found this.
Mult-Asian Student Association. M.A.S.A.
http://www.ucsdmasa.org/staff.html



qualifying was ...

 

[Qwertylizer]

Now Bernie is ready to give up if the teams promised to stay in F1 for next five years.

Mosley can't say anything... Bernie just wants to save his money.

 

[Fizzoid]

Mosley can't say anything...

Although "I quit" would be quite nice

 

[bartelby]

Although "I quit" would be quite nice

Well played!

 

[MOFS]

Now Bernie is ready to give up if the teams promised to stay in F1 for next five years.

Mosley can't say anything... Bernie just wants to save his money.

Speaking to John Howett (Toyota CEO, vice-president FOTA), while saying that their statement from FOTA on Thursday stands, is implying that there is still room for manouevre. Whether that means they don't want any of the FIA's proposals remains to be seen, but there appears to be hope for a resolution.

RE the race: You have to fancy Vettel. Fastest car in these conditions (it's still a bit cloudy), heavy fuel load. It's his to lose.

EDIT: I have to say this pandering to Silverstone is really getting on me nuts. The lack of footage regarding Donnington coupled with Damon Hill talking them down is a wee bit biased.

 

[Qwertylizer]

Although "I quit" would be quite nice

Yeah.. that would be the best scenario!

Speaking to John Howett (Toyota CEO, vice-president FOTA), while saying that their statement from FOTA on Thursday stands, is implying that there is still room for manouevre. Whether that means they don't want any of the FIA's proposals remains to be seen, but there appears to be hope for a resolution.

I guess they (teams) will continue in F1 next year, even though Bernie still keeps his authority. Maybe they'll make some kind of agreement not to change the rules every year.

 

[MOFS]

I guess they (teams) will continue in F1 next year, even though Bernie still keeps his authority. Maybe they'll make some kind of agreement not to change the rules every year.

That would kinda be a complete retcon. It'd be like those TV shows where a big change occurs in an episode only for it to be reversed "and never spoken of again".

EDIT: BTW does anyone else think Silverstone looks a bit cheap? I've never been, but it seems to be a bit of a hodge potch. Surely with so many people coming they could afford to redo some of the stands? It's a bit embarrassing.

 

[takao]

man it looks like the red bull aero update with it's 63 new parts is really kicking in combined with vettel ... 13 laps 13 seconds ahead on the before "unbeatable brawn car"

 

[MOFS]

man it looks like the red bull aero update with it's 63 new parts is really kicking in combined with vettel ... 13 laps 13 seconds ahead on the before "unbeatable brawn car"

It's the cool weather. Brawns are better at managing their tyres (see Monaco), but struggle to warm them up (see China). RBR are worse at managing their tyres, but better in colder weather. At the moment it's 16ºC air (29ºC track) – the coolest dry race so far.

EDIT: And Button is weaving, trying to warm his tyres: it's been an unusually cool weekend.

 

[bartelby]

EDIT: BTW does anyone else think Silverstone looks a bit cheap? I've never been, but it seems to be a bit of a hodge potch. Surely with so many people coming they could afford to redo some of the stands? It's a bit embarrassing.

It still looks posher than Donnington.

 

[MOFS]

It still looks posher than Donnington.

I guess we'll be able to ask Spook.

Well done RBR. You'll be hoping for a cold front for the rest of the season then.

 

[CWallace]

Had to wait till noon local (about seven hours after it actually happened), but just finished watching the race on FOX here in the States.

Man, RBR was just untouchable this weekend. Both cars were in another class.

 

[Capt Crunch]

Had to wait till noon local (about seven hours after it actually happened), but just finished watching the race on FOX here in the States.

Man, RBR was just untouchable this weekend. Both cars were in another class.

Yeah, Silverstone really caters the RB cars... they are very good on high speed corners.

 

[benlangdon]

ya great race, vettel is awsome, and adrian newe (spell?).

great race, i liked how it turned out, liked all the guys in the top 4.

but one complaint, fox, dam they cut so much out, especially the interview after. lame.

 

[SpookTheHamster]

That was awesome. First current F1 race I've ever been to and first time I've gone to Silverstone. Yes it looks cheap and the stands are awful, but ours was half filled with RBT staff and it went crazy whenever they came past, especially when Webber came out of the pits just in front of Barichello (and right in front of us). It couldn't have been any better for us.

Before the race I could feel a subtle vibration in my seat; I looked around and it was because everyone's legs were shaking. The atmosphere was amazing.

I haven't been to Donnington in over 5 years, but I'm sure by next year the facilities should be way better than Silverstone. The thing I found most annoying was that the roof of the stand was held up by posts at the FRONT. Making taking pictures very difficult. I got a few good ones though.

I still think it's a shame that F1 will never visit Brands Hatch, but the amount of work that would be needed to add in the necessary stands in the woods would spoil the atmosphere completely.

Something else that struck me was the cost of it. A standard ticket to Silverstone is around £150 without a grandstand, and the "Club Silverstone" (includes Becketts grandstand & a nasty free hat) were over £300. I really hope FOTA stick to their word regarding ticket costs. It's absolutely ridiculous that a family day out at the races can end up pushing £1000. It's not something I'd ever pay to go to.

 

[MOFS]

That was awesome. First current F1 race I've ever been to and first time I've gone to Silverstone. Yes it looks cheap and the stands are awful, but ours was half filled with RBT staff and it went crazy whenever they came past, especially when Webber came out of the pits just in front of Barichello (and right in front of us). It couldn't have been any better for us.

Before the race I could feel a subtle vibration in my seat; I looked around and it was because everyone's legs were shaking. The atmosphere was amazing.

I haven't been to Donnington in over 5 years, but I'm sure by next year the facilities should be way better than Silverstone. The thing I found most annoying was that the roof of the stand was held up by posts at the FRONT. Making taking pictures very difficult. I got a few good ones though.

I still think it's a shame that F1 will never visit Brands Hatch, but the amount of work that would be needed to add in the necessary stands in the woods would spoil the atmosphere completely.

Something else that struck me was the cost of it. A standard ticket to Silverstone is around £150 without a grandstand, and the "Club Silverstone" (includes Becketts grandstand & a nasty free hat) were over £300. I really hope FOTA stick to their word regarding ticket costs. It's absolutely ridiculous that a family day out at the races can end up pushing £1000. It's not something I'd ever pay to go to.

Good to see you had fun. I found it a bit disappointing watching on the TV that the commentators were going on about how great a circuit was, and yet IMHO it was probably the dullest race of the season – no doubt RBR were on form, but it wasn't possible to overtake (as Button said). IMHO the "allure" of Silverstone is based on the fans, and I think the fans would be similar at Donnington; but with some Tilke-style upgrades to the circuit, and improvements to the grandstands Donnington could be a phenomenal circuit to race at. Let's give it a chance.

On a side issue rolleyes Flavio says there won't be a deal, but Martin Whitmarsh appeared keen for a deal to happen (albeit on the right terms). The WMSC vote on Max's presidency appears to be key to the deal. Bernie seemed to hint that his position while valid, was dependent on the support of the members. It'll be another key week for F1 next (#6 in a row).