No word yet (although Wednesday still isn't over on the West Coast)...
The Dwightmare continues.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
2011-2012 NBA Season Thread
- Thread starter Queen of Spades
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
No word yet (although Wednesday still isn't over on the West Coast)...
The Dwightmare continues.
So they traded for them, and? Do you really think that Garnett and Allen didnt have any say in what was going on? Im sure they had a lot of say as to where they wanted to go.
7 seasons is still 7 seasons for Bosh and James, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise. They were drafted by their respective teams, they went through their rookie deals, re-signed when their deals were up, which they didnt have to at the time, and tried to make it work in their respective cities, which it didnt. You make it sound like its just so right with the Celtics big three because they have a few more seasons on Bosh and James, which is ridiculous. Bosh and James paid their dues, and played until their contracts expired, without the cry baby stuff that goes on now with Howard, and Paul before, yet they are scrutinized because they wanted to play together? C'mon, that is just stupid.
Not even Jordan could do it on his own, and didnt win anything until Pippen arrived, so why is it that James decides that he needs to go to Miami and play with his Pippen? What happened with Kobe when he didnt have Shaq? Nothing, until Gasol, Odom, and company came along. Who played alongside Duncan during the Spurs run? Superstars like Robinson, Ginobli, Parker, etc. Who did Wade have with him in Miami in 06, or the Bad Boys in the 90s? NOW...who did LeBron have in Cleveland? Mo Williams? Damon Jones? Daniel Gibson? Drew Gooden? You tell me which one of those guys match up to a Dwyane Wade, to a Shaquille O'Neal. etc. LeBron James WAS the Cleveland Cavaliers, paid his dues, and needed his sidekick, just like every other championship team had in the past.
They made one Finals appearance, and that was strictly because of LeBron James. They did not have the management, nor the city, to build a championship team. Nobody wants to go to Cleveland, even if it means playing with the best basketball player on the planet. Bosh even said in 2010 that he would go to Chicago with LeBron, if it didnt work in Miami, but he would never go to Cleveland.
Difference with the Chicago Bulls is that they, again, traded for Scottie Pippen (essentially they drafted him). They improved their team on the avenues open to every team in the league.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think trades are fair game, but this kind of clustering of stars via free agency is bad for the NBA, especially when it so, so obviously favors certains cities/franchises.
Eventually it will be the same 5 or 6 teams competing for a championship year after year, when free agents start trying to sign all together in the favored locales.
And in my personal opinion, teaming up for an instant all-star squad is boring and not nearly as fun to watch. The Heat had a totally crap bench, poor coaching at times, and they still won a championship because the sheer talent of their big 3 was enough to overcome the other shortcomings. Again, not a good thing for the NBA. And yes, I think LeBron threw in the towel and hit the easy button. I'm definitely not alone in thinking that. I hope the brilliant drafting/trading of the Thunder leads to them winning championships for the next 5 years.
I'm a fan of free agency and if it leads to clustering of stars, so be it. For one, doesn't guarantee anything - look what happened when Malone and Payton went to the Lakers. Or the Melo-STAT pairing that was supposed to save NY. Second, there are plenty of small market teams that have become contenders - OKC, the Spurs and their dynasty, etc.
I know some cities are more desirable than others but every team has the same salary cap and most losing teams are just poorly managed. Knicks are the biggest market, have one of the best scorers in the game, defensive player of the year, and one of the league's best rollmen yet they continue to underachieve. Meanwhile a team with no stars like Denver or the Sixers can come out and get more playoff wins.
Far as the Heat, that whole roster stepped up in the Finals. They wouldn't have won without their role players hitting their 3's and Chalmers coming up with big plays. Contrast this with OKC where ball movement just stopped and their whole offense turned into Westbrook trying to force shots. And Spoelstra's not the best at creating plays but he outcoached Brooks with his adjustments. One of the things I like about Spoelstra is he doesn't coddle his stars like Mike Brown did. Lebron hated that his first year - now the Heat have an identity that plays to everyone's strengths - everyone sharing pg duties and role players spreading the floor. And that compensates for them being one of the weakest teams at the 5.
I know some cities are more desirable than others but every team has the same salary cap and most losing teams are just poorly managed. Knicks are the biggest market, have one of the best scorers in the game, defensive player of the year, and one of the league's best rollmen yet they continue to underachieve. Meanwhile a team with no stars like Denver or the Sixers can come out and get more playoff wins.
Far as the Heat, that whole roster stepped up in the Finals. They wouldn't have won without their role players hitting their 3's and Chalmers coming up with big plays. Contrast this with OKC where ball movement just stopped and their whole offense turned into Westbrook trying to force shots. And Spoelstra's not the best at creating plays but he outcoached Brooks with his adjustments. One of the things I like about Spoelstra is he doesn't coddle his stars like Mike Brown did. Lebron hated that his first year - now the Heat have an identity that plays to everyone's strengths - everyone sharing pg duties and role players spreading the floor. And that compensates for them being one of the weakest teams at the 5.
To be fair - both of those teams were built via the draft. They were awful and were "rewarded" with high lottery picks - along with smart drafting (especially by the Spurs).
For the last few years, I've watched the Rockets strike out repeatedly in the free agent market - and also in a trade last year for both Gasol and Howard. Their only chance for a revival is to tank (which they may this year if they don't get Howard) and hope for a Top 3 or 4 pick.
Yeah, that's kinda my point. That it is possible to build a contender on a small market team through drafts. So the idea the best teams are large market teams that build through free agency doesn't hold.
I think part of Houston's problem is Daryl Morey, who's better at finding undervalued talent than he is at putting together a roster that can win a title. IE Brooks, Landry, Scola, etc all better than people thought they were but not exactly guys who can step up and carry the team to a title. So yeah, if they don't get Howard they're probably not going anywhere next year but I still think Lin is an all star in the making and I'll be watching to see how he does.
The draft can only help so many teams though. The two teams you used as an example both are being carried by #1 Picks. Houston has had the 14th pick the last 3 years (IIRC). They aren't bad enough to warrant picking that high. They are stuck in neutral.
And God love Daryl Morey. He works as hard as anyone - but just has been unable to land the big fish. Without a star or two, they'll continue to go nowhere.
Well, to be fair, Payton and Malone were at the very end of their careers and were no longer All-Stars when they joined the Lakers. The Melo/Amare experiment likely would have gone better had they both been able to stay on the court together for longer than a few games (and again, the Knicks traded for Melo, it wasn't a mass free agent gathering).
OKC and the Spurs are the exceptions that prove the rule. For OKC, they managed to hit on almost every single draft pick in the last few years, and it doesn't hurt that they have arguably the 2nd best player in the league.
Liquorpuki said:
Every team has the same salary cap, but not every team can entice stars into taking the necessary pay cuts to build a championship team, like the Heat can. Or the Lakers can.
Liquorpuki said:
Chalmers went through stretches of the playoffs where he was invisible. Miller played on one leg and it showed in most of the games prior to the finals. I mean, Norris Cole? Joel Anthony? Ronny Turiaf? These guys stink. Especially in the Eastern Conference Finals, if LeBron James and Dwayne Wade (and eventually Chris Bosh) hadn't bailed them all out, there'd be no championship. When you have a trio of All-Stars in their prime, they can cover up a lot of roster holes. The role players stepped up, mostly in the later stages of the Finals, but they wouldn't have had the opportunity if not for LBJ/Wade/Bosh carrying them.
I mean, do you honestly believe Miami's supporting cast is better than Oklahoma City's? Hell no.
Liquorpuki said:
His "adjustments" were LeBron James absolutely dominating the game (offensively and defensively), with spurts of Wade and Bosh doing the same. That left the runway wide for guys like Chalmers, Battier, etc.
Last edited:
Yes, but Jordan still needed Pippen, and Horace Grant, and Dennis Rodman, and Toni Kukoc, to help win the title. LeBron had NOBODY in Cleveland that resembled Pippen's nose, let alone his game. He had nobody, and he still took his team to the Finals. The ECFs series against the Piston pretty much proves how much he had to do on his own, as he scored 29 of the last 30 points in that huge Game 5. Or the next season, where the Cavs got ousted by the Celtics. Nobody wanted to go to Cleveland, except for 2nd tier players (Jamison), and players over the hill (Shaq). It has nothing to do with the team, or coach, its just the city? Have you been to Cleveland? You can see why players would rather go to a Miami, New York, LA, etc.
Im glad we disagree, because it would be boring banter otherwise
Its unfortunate, but that is what its going to come down to. Most NBA players are attracted to the big lights, the glitz and glammer, the women, and if the money is the same between one team that has all/most of that, to another team that has little/none of it, you can pretty much know which team that player will choose. These smaller market teams have to build through the draft, like my Florida Panthers in the NHL have, and they have to be a bit lucky as well, like Cleveland with LeBron, or OKC with Westbrook, Durant, and Harden.
The Heat won because Spoelstra outcoached Brooks, the role players stepped up when they needed to, and their top players played the way they were suppose to. This wasnt a LeBron lead Cleveland team winning the title, this was the best player in the world, playing his best basketball, with everyone stepping up the way they were suppose to. Chalmers had a hell of a playoffs, Battier was a beast on the defensive end, and hit some huge 3 pointers for us, Haslem showed his usual toughness down low, and was big for us defensively, as usual, Miller hit some huge 3s for us, and was a great spot rebounder, and Cole, while in his rookie season, was a great change of pace sub for Chalmers. That is hardly a bench full of scrubs. And as far as the Thunder is concerned, lets see how loyal their players are in the next year, when they have both Harden and Ibaka as free agents.
I don't think he's a bad GM but I really don't get what he's been trying to do this offseason. Poached Asik, got rid of all his assets except Kevin Martin, got lucky that Dolan didn't match Lin, still hoping he gets Dwight Howard. I have no clue if he's trying to tank the team/rebuild or trying to build a contender right now.
I'm a big believer in systems, coaching, and FO moves mattering as much as stars. All the Wizards do is play John Wall hero ball. Javale McGee and Nic Young looked like trash on that team, got traded to Denver and LA, and are suddenly winning games for their new teams.
Besides Malone and Payton, Lakers had the best 2 and 5 in the league and they still lost to the Pistons. Finals MVP was Chauncey Billups, a guy who'll probably never make the HOF. The rest of the guys - Sheed, Rip Hamilton, Prince etc are average players. But they totally destroyed the Lakers that year.
Melo/Amare is never gonna work. One is a post ISO guy, the other isn't good at anything except being a rollman. Now they brought back Felton, a pick and roll pg, and they're gonna have the same problem they had last year with Lin. Trying to run 1-4 or 1-5 pnr with Melo screwing up the spacing because he wants to post up in his favorite spots.
Basically I think some teams are just so poor behind the scenes, it doesn't matter who they get. Cavs' owner is a baby. Bobcats have internal issues b/c Jordan doesn't know what he's doing. Warriors traded away their franchise player for an injured 5 and were delusional enough to announce they were still gonna make the playoffs. Portland is unlucky enough to keep signing guys that get injured.
That just shows how badly they played. If old injured Mike Miller is able to hit his shots and the 6th man of the year isn't, OKC is not playing their best on either end.
And I remember being totally confused at some of Brooks's lineups. Guys like Perkins didn't get enough spin. Guys like Fisher got way too much spin.
The league as a whole is becoming a joke. It's becoming less and less about actual competition and the sport of basketball and more about money and entertainment. What's the point of a league if all of the talent is going to be spread across only a quarter of the teams in the league?
You have relevant teams in Boston, New York, Chicago, Miami, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, and Los Angeles. It's like the rest of them don't even matter. There is no parity at all.
This, the absolutely horrendous officiating, and the fact that the league announced that they are considering advertising on jerseys starting in 2013 is just making this league more unbearable to watch.
This is my entire point, certain teams have unfair advantages, and when you add in the collusion of players deciding to bunch up on those certain teams, it becomes a very undesirable situation. I don't think it will be good for the NBA. And something should be done about it, rather than just accepting it as an inevitability that can't be changed.
It's unreasonable to expect 5-6 teams to score all the prized free agents, and the other 25 to have to build their teams entirely through the draft. It will never be a workable system. Free agency exists for a reason, and it's starting to tilt unfairly.
All of the league's premiere talent should not be concentrated on a handful of teams. And obviously, yes, you can draft a superstar - but the chances of drafting a franchise player are not high, and depending on what team drafts him, he will likely just leave in his prime.
Looks like the Dwight Howard saga has finally ended....and the rich get richer.
Dwight Howard to Lakers
Dwight Howard to Lakers
And once again the NBA proves what a joke league it is.
Los Angeles
Chicago
Miami
Boston
San Antonio
Oklahoma City
Might as well just have a 6 team league at this point. I don't see any teams that I didn't list actually having a chance come playoff time.
This small market myth needs to die
Lakers - big market team that usually builds through trades/FA. Yet got Kobe and Bynum through the draft, wouldn't have won rings without them
Celtics - big market team that got Paul Pierce and Rondo through the draft. Only guys they got off trades/FA is Garnett and Ray Allen (who's now gone).
Knicks - big market team that got Melo and STAT through trades/FA. Overpaid for both and continue to underperform b/c both these acquisitions screwed their ability to acquire talent
Nets - another big market team that sucks
Bulls - their best players (Rose, Deng, Noah), all acquired through the draft. And they were never contenders until they got rid of Del Negro
OKC - built entirely through the draft, took 4 years for them to become contenders.
Spurs - built entirely through the draft. Coach of the year. Built a dynasty by keeping their franchise player Duncan happy so he wouldn't leave during FA. Contrast this with
T-Wolves - Kevin Love has already said he's unhappy that management can't put together a team that will bring him to the playoffs. Ownership gave him an opt-out clause instead of a max extension (AKA, they're telling their franchise player, we don't really care if you leave)
Mavericks - big market team with only one star that managed to beat a superteam with 3 stars. Then they get rid of key players like Tyson and Barea and now they suck again.
Clippers - big market team that nobody wanted to play for until 2 years ago because Sterling didn't care. Now Sterling had a change of heart and they've gotten better through both the draft and trades/FA
Bobcats - small market team that's cursed because Jordan had no clue what he was doing on the Wizards and still has no clue what he's doing. Look at all the nobodies he's drafted over the past decade, or all the nobodies he's traded away 1st round draft picks for
Cavs - Gilbert is the loudest guy when it comes to small market teams not getting their fair shake. Yet all he did for 8 years was surround Lebron with a bunch of scrubs and a scrub coach. And this is a small market team that made it to the finals
Warriors - still trying to build a team around a flawed guard (Steph Curry). Drafted Lin, a pnr guard, then never ran the pnr. Then waived Lin to shave $800K off the cap. Traded Monte for an injured 5 at a time where every 5 other than Dwight or Bynum is mediocre. Owner says it's because a 5 is the most valuable position in the league. Meanwhile Miami just won a title while being absolutely lousy at the 5.
Blazers - every player they wanna build around gets injured
Rockets - no clue what they're doing because they've been trying to build a team off APBRmetrics for the past 5 years and have nothing to show for it
Looking at this mess, if you were a FA what team would you go to? Players don't seek out big market teams. They seek teams that can win. Those teams are managed by guys like Buford, who's a genius when it comes choosing draft picks, or Kupchak, who's a genius when it comes to building through trades. They're not managed by guys like Hennigan, who just screwed Orlando for the next few years by sending him to the Lakers
Lakers - big market team that usually builds through trades/FA. Yet got Kobe and Bynum through the draft, wouldn't have won rings without them
Celtics - big market team that got Paul Pierce and Rondo through the draft. Only guys they got off trades/FA is Garnett and Ray Allen (who's now gone).
Knicks - big market team that got Melo and STAT through trades/FA. Overpaid for both and continue to underperform b/c both these acquisitions screwed their ability to acquire talent
Nets - another big market team that sucks
Bulls - their best players (Rose, Deng, Noah), all acquired through the draft. And they were never contenders until they got rid of Del Negro
OKC - built entirely through the draft, took 4 years for them to become contenders.
Spurs - built entirely through the draft. Coach of the year. Built a dynasty by keeping their franchise player Duncan happy so he wouldn't leave during FA. Contrast this with
T-Wolves - Kevin Love has already said he's unhappy that management can't put together a team that will bring him to the playoffs. Ownership gave him an opt-out clause instead of a max extension (AKA, they're telling their franchise player, we don't really care if you leave)
Mavericks - big market team with only one star that managed to beat a superteam with 3 stars. Then they get rid of key players like Tyson and Barea and now they suck again.
Clippers - big market team that nobody wanted to play for until 2 years ago because Sterling didn't care. Now Sterling had a change of heart and they've gotten better through both the draft and trades/FA
Bobcats - small market team that's cursed because Jordan had no clue what he was doing on the Wizards and still has no clue what he's doing. Look at all the nobodies he's drafted over the past decade, or all the nobodies he's traded away 1st round draft picks for
Cavs - Gilbert is the loudest guy when it comes to small market teams not getting their fair shake. Yet all he did for 8 years was surround Lebron with a bunch of scrubs and a scrub coach. And this is a small market team that made it to the finals
Warriors - still trying to build a team around a flawed guard (Steph Curry). Drafted Lin, a pnr guard, then never ran the pnr. Then waived Lin to shave $800K off the cap. Traded Monte for an injured 5 at a time where every 5 other than Dwight or Bynum is mediocre. Owner says it's because a 5 is the most valuable position in the league. Meanwhile Miami just won a title while being absolutely lousy at the 5.
Blazers - every player they wanna build around gets injured
Rockets - no clue what they're doing because they've been trying to build a team off APBRmetrics for the past 5 years and have nothing to show for it
Looking at this mess, if you were a FA what team would you go to? Players don't seek out big market teams. They seek teams that can win. Those teams are managed by guys like Buford, who's a genius when it comes choosing draft picks, or Kupchak, who's a genius when it comes to building through trades. They're not managed by guys like Hennigan, who just screwed Orlando for the next few years by sending him to the Lakers
It's not about the size of the markets. It's the fact that the league has become watered down to a handful of superteams and a bunch of teams full of scrubs. It's like the exact opposite of the parity these major pro sports teams are supposed to have.
There are good teams and bad teams, and the FO matters since they put together the roster. All-star FA's, who actually have a choice in where they wanna play on their next contract, are not gonna wanna play for bad teams. Not when they've spent their whole rookie contract + an extension playing for a team run by a FO that couldn't make them a contender.
Good team = Lakers, who gave Odom away during the lockout, which allowed them to get Nash, and took advantage of the mess in Orlando to get Dwight Howard.
Bad team = Orlando, who traded Dwight for 3 guys who won't make a difference in getting a ring but will take up cap space, and 3 protected draft picks (AKA draft picks they won't get if they're too high). Meanwhile both the Rockets and Nets had better offers. Along the way they fired Van Gundy, a guy that looks like a genius compared to both coaches here in LA, and kept all their bad contracts.
Orlando is now a scrub team for the next few years and they don't have anyone to blame but themselves
Yet another fleecing by the Lakers, and the rich get richer. YAWN. And the NBA wonders why it can't touch the NFL in terms of viewership and revenue.
Even Kobe knows what's up.
Even Kobe knows what's up.
Lakers aren't forcing crappy GM's to make dumb moves
Nobody told Rod Hennigan, ignore the Nets offer to give you Humphries, Lopez, Marshon Brooks + 4 unprotected draft picks plus remove some scrubs from payroll, which would've been perfect for Orlando rebuilding. Or ignore the Rockets giving you their rookie contracts, draft picks and absorbing some scrubs, which would've also been perfect for rebuilding. Or ignore a straight up Bynum Howard trade. Instead, trade Dwight Howard for some more scrubs and some protected draft picks that won't even be top 10.
No, he did that on his own.
Far as the Pau trade, Memphis got Marc Gasol and OJ Mayo out of it and along with Rudy Gay filling Pau's shoes, became a second round playoff team and the western conference darkhorse. As opposed to when Pau on the roster where they would automatically get swept in the first round. They got more out of it than Kobe says they did.
Nobody told Rod Hennigan, ignore the Nets offer to give you Humphries, Lopez, Marshon Brooks + 4 unprotected draft picks plus remove some scrubs from payroll, which would've been perfect for Orlando rebuilding. Or ignore the Rockets giving you their rookie contracts, draft picks and absorbing some scrubs, which would've also been perfect for rebuilding. Or ignore a straight up Bynum Howard trade. Instead, trade Dwight Howard for some more scrubs and some protected draft picks that won't even be top 10.
No, he did that on his own.
Far as the Pau trade, Memphis got Marc Gasol and OJ Mayo out of it and along with Rudy Gay filling Pau's shoes, became a second round playoff team and the western conference darkhorse. As opposed to when Pau on the roster where they would automatically get swept in the first round. They got more out of it than Kobe says they did.
What does Lakers's roster look like now?
Is this accurate?
What about the C's?
Not sure how accurate those are now, but...
Rondo / Terry > Nash / Blake
Bradley / Lee < Kobe
Pierce / Green > Artest / Jamison / Ebanks
Bass / Sullinger < Gasol / Jamison
KG / Wilcox < Howard / Hill
They are both great defenders, but Howard is young and has a better future, but then again in the post season Mr. 19&10, KG, was amazing and played as the second best Center in the league. Howard on the other hand is the best Center in the league.
It makes me sad that the Lakers have an A grade offense now and that Dwight makes up for their lacking defense in some areas.
I hate the Lakers and the Heat...
Is this accurate?
What about the C's?
Not sure how accurate those are now, but...
Rondo / Terry > Nash / Blake
Bradley / Lee < Kobe
Pierce / Green > Artest / Jamison / Ebanks
Bass / Sullinger < Gasol / Jamison
KG / Wilcox < Howard / Hill
They are both great defenders, but Howard is young and has a better future, but then again in the post season Mr. 19&10, KG, was amazing and played as the second best Center in the league. Howard on the other hand is the best Center in the league.
It makes me sad that the Lakers have an A grade offense now and that Dwight makes up for their lacking defense in some areas.
I hate the Lakers and the Heat...
You're not alone in that. I'm pretty sure every basketball fan outside of those two cities hates those teams. Unfortunately, we're going to be stuck watching them on all the prime time games and deep in the playoffs for a long time.
I'm not so sure about that. There are so many Heat band-wagoners here and no one actually likes our hometown basketball team.
They didn't get Mayo out of it or a pick to draft him. Definitely was an awful trade at the time. Basically Kwame Brown, a very late 1st rounder and an unproven Marc Gasol. The younger Gasol turned out to be good.
The Lakers did give up a lot when you considered what other teams got for their superstar players but that didn't matter for the Magic. Really like Aaron Afflalo too but you know you did bad when the best player you get for Dwight is him. Kinda weird that Orlando took back Al Harrington's contract on top of it.
Wrong. The Memphis Grizzlies acquired OJ Mayo in a trade with Minnesota for Kevin Love + filler players on both sides.
And everyone, and I mean EVERYONE ripped the Pau Gasol "trade" (more like robbery) as one of the most lopsided, unfair trades ever accomplished in the NBA. Period. I can go back and find many, many articles on it if you like, but arguing otherwise is total homerism.
Marc Gasol is a very good player, but he's not as good as Pau Gasol in the same years of his career. And anyway, proven player in his prime > unproven commodity any day of the week.
----------
I'm not so sure about that. There are so many Heat band-wagoners here and no one actually likes our hometown basketball team.
Bandwagoners and fair weather fans can get bent. No matter how many times they hop aboard, I guarantee it is never as sweet as sticking with a team through thick and thin and watching them win it all.
You guys are right, I had the wrong draft pick.
My point still stands about FO's killing themselves with dumb moves... which makes the Grizzlies an anomaly then b/c they got better after the dumb move?
Jodie Meeks will be at the 2
See that's the thing, the Lakers offense was broken last year under Mike Brown b/c he's a horrible coach. Before acquiring Dwight, Kobe was saying the Lakers would run the Princeton offense, which IMO is dumb b/c it takes both the 5 and Nash out of their game. With a proven roll man like Dwight here instead of Bynum, they're definitely not running Princeton. Nash and Dwight would excel in a 1-5 pick and roll. Meanwhile Pau would actually be better in Princeton or horns as playmaker and would suck in a pnr because he's not a stretch 4. Kobe would be better posting up or creating like always. There's gonna be a pecking order conflict between Dwight, Nash, and Kobe next year.
If you wanna know how superteams get beat by teams with no stars, this is how.