2014 Mac Mini Teardown Highlights Increased Difficulty For User Upgradability

[name99]

The original Mac mini (core solo) (yes core solo, not duo, not core 2 duo) was the first (modern) Mac that I had. We went through countless upgrades including hard drive, RAM, and even a processor swap. I went from the core solo all the way up to the core 2 duo. I learned a lot from those experiences, and now electronics repair is my job.

If I ever wanted to cry, it would be now

You know what's even worse? You can't add extra cache to the CPU! You can't swap out the FPU for a Weitek unit. You can't even replace the GPU.

Grow up people. It is PHYSICS, not malice that is making these devices ever smaller and less modifiable. The fastest, lowest power connection is the shortest connection. That leads to as much as possible on the same chip, then as much as possible on the same board. Soldered RAM is lower power today, and pretty soon the only way to run future speeds will be soldered RAM.

The world of upgrades that involved digging around inside the device was a weird temporary anomaly of the PC era. We don't expect it with phones, and shouldn't expect it with future PCs.

 

[UpperQuadrant]

From my experience and observation, when a person's computer feels sluggish they either ask someone they know personally (me) why or ask Geek Squad or an Apple Genius. Usually the answer is to simply upgrade the RAM (or have someone switch it to an SSD).

If the Mac Mini is supposed to be a gateway for PC owners to switch to Mac, they're not going to like it when the answer becomes "get a new computer, this Mac can't be upgraded". General non-techy consumers buy PCs mostly because they are cheap. I'm sure they'll enjoy being told that if they had a PC still, they could have upgraded it, but now they have to buy a new Mac which is also more expensive than they're used to.

So the argument that regular consumers don't care about soldered RAM doesn't hold water IMO.

This is besides the fact that Apple knows the Mac Mini is used for more than entry-level computing for first-time Mac users. They offered a model specifically aimed at running it as a small server. Naturally they wanted (and got) quad-core CPUs and upgraded their own RAM as needed.

Apple has simply decided that they no longer care about these segments of their market.

And you wonder why the PC mfg can't make any money. HP, Dell, Lenovo, ASUS, Acer, etc. are basically running their PC divisions at a loss, or no more than 6% Net Profit margin. Welcome to the modern computer industry.


Look at these major players.

HP has been trying to dump their PC division but no takers.
IBM sold off their not profitable PC business to Lenovo.
Compaq sold off their not profitable PC business to HP.
Dell went private.
Acer has gone through 3 CEOs within 6 months due to lack of profits.
NEC got out of the PC industry.
Gateway computer got sold off.
AST computer sold off to Samsung.
Google sold/ or is in the process of selling Motorola to Lenovo at a HUGE loss.
Microsof is laying off thousands of people, they dropped the Surface RT, they dropped the Zune media players, they aren't making money on hardware, they are shutting down R&D labs
Sun got sold off to Oracle.
Lenovo isn't making any profit to speak of. Look at their financials. They are running on SLIM margins and might not last much longer at the rate they are going. They are almost running their business like a non-profit company.

The problem is that the grass isn't greener in the PC world. It's in a downward spiral and the biggest problem I see is that in order for these PC companies to get any sales, they have to make ultra cheap products using i3 processors, cheap plastic cases, and they end up having less customer satisfaction ratings.

Why do you think Apple's Mac Business is still steadily growing and the PC businesses are slowing declining? It's all about customer satisfaction.

With all of the problems I've had on both Windows and Mac platforms combined, I have had far more success with Apple than with Microsoft platform and I've been using computers since 1977 and have used C/PM, DOS, Windows, Macs, etc. and have probably used far more brands of computers than your average consumer. I remember when they would actually replace the actual RAM chip because they weren't soldered onto the mother baord, or replacing a read/write head on a floppy drive, or being able to test a floppy and recalibrate it. times are changing to a more throw it away mentality. That's why we are having everything backed up to the Cloud. if our entire data is constantly backed up to the cloud, we can change the computer, redownload all of our data and then we don't have to worry about the product getting serviced.

I remember when the average computer system cost $5000. The average price of a fully assembled computer is more like half of that or even less. Everything is surface mounted parts rather than socketed or parts that had pins holding them on to the motherboards. Things are made differently now and people want smaller boxes and they have to cut costs to maintain a price point and still be profitable.

The old way of thinking about how computers are designed, serviced, upgraded isn't profitable for the companies anymore. Sorry, but that's the industry.

 

[gadgetguy03]

A lot do, though there are still people that need a real desktop in order to do development work, etc.

Yep, I'm one of those you mentioned.

 

[Anitramane]

yeah, but you have to spend a lot of time researching what that Freeware is, getting it and having it be good quality freeware. Most of these 3rd party Freeware apps suck. I stopped using most of them because their support and updates to make it consistently work is a crap shoot. Some are better at it than others. But Apple is a Top Tier mfg and they have a support system to rely on.

I would put Apple's applications up against any 3rd party freeware any day of the week. they provide constant updates, they have a phone support, or you can walk into an Apple store to get training or support if you need it.

Most Freeware you get on the open market is junk ware. I haven't run into that much that I would recommend for a production environment.

Of course most software is going to suck when there's so much of it.
You only get viruses on a computer nowadays if you are retarded.
Macs do offer higher security, but we'll only need a mainstream friendly linux (ubuntu 14.04 is not quite there yet) and Windows will become obsolete and with Linux you'll have as much if not more security.

Did some searching and by using some of them so heres a nice list of free software for your PC and a lot of them work on Mac and Linux too!

Office Program: www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/

Image Edititng: http://www.gimp.org/

Music Player: http://www.winamp.com/

Video Edititng: http://www.lwks.com/

Music Creation: http://lmms.sourceforge.net/home.php

You want free OS that works like Os X? Get a linux distro with drivers for your machine.

And if you really are in a production environment, the included Apple software sucks.

 

[CFreymarc]

Does my iMac turn you on, baby? It's : pregnant pause : retina. 5k resolution, nearly triple that of : licks lips : standard HD. The ram is : runs fingers across lips : soldered to the logic board. Integrated GPU from : breathy sigh : Intel. The curves? The profile? Thin. Milled aluminium. The sex appeal? Undeniable.

When we make love, do you think of me, or do you think of my Apple. That's not a euphemism : sly wink :

Among a lot of Millenials -- especially along the Hipster crowd -- that is not a joke but real pillow talk.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

I'm referring to the downgrade. You're right about Jobs liking welded-shut computers, but he never oversaw the downgrade of model line that I'm aware of.

Instead of sustaining Apple's loyal user base, Cook is exploiting them. That's what I mean by the Compaq mentality.

That's fair enough. You're definitely right that this is an outlier. Hard to find another successor that had decreased performance over its previous generation.

 

[UpperQuadrant]

You know what's even worse? You can't add extra cache to the CPU! You can't swap out the FPU for a Weitek unit. You can't even replace the GPU.

Grow up people. It is PHYSICS, not malice that is making these devices ever smaller and less modifiable. The fastest, lowest power connection is the shortest connection. That leads to as much as possible on the same chip, then as much as possible on the same board. Soldered RAM is lower power today, and pretty soon the only way to run future speeds will be soldered RAM.

The world of upgrades that involved digging around inside the device was a weird temporary anomaly of the PC era. We don't expect it with phones, and shouldn't expect it with future PCs.

I remember when people would use different speed memory modules and had problems because they just didn't realize they shouldn't be using different ratings in the first place. The average Joe Blow isn't qualified to replace parts in a computer, yet they do it anyway to save a buck, and they usually end up using crappy parts, they typically don't wear a wrist strap, and they end up making things worse and then they blame the mfg for their own personal problems.

When I buy an Apple product, I typically ALWAYS buy AppleCare and i know THEY are responsible for break fix during that 3 year period and I generally have less problems, but if I do, I have an 800 number or a company that has a local store to get them to fix it if need be.

I see too many people that buy a computer and then they THINK like Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor" and they end up creating more problems, costing more money and being more frustrated in the end. Murphy's Laws always affect the DIY crowd first.

 

[CFreymarc]

Steve's NeXT team introduced OS X, a technological achievement unmatched by any other computer company in decades. They went on to create such technological masterpieces as the iOS. Don't sell Steve Jobs era Apple short by describing them as a fashion company - they were a tech company, just not "tech" in the conventional sense of hardware tech with an afterthought OS slapped on it. Jobs understood exactly what tech mattered to the user experience.

Oh and Jobs oversaw the unimaginably smooth transition from PPC to x86. If that wasn't a hardcore technological move I don't know what is.

Let's avoid a "who knows who" at Apple fight where this can easily go.

While Steve gave those orders to the engineers and yes NextStep becomes Mac OS X becomes iOS and PPC -> x86 was a smooth process to the end users, it was a bull through a china shop to the old guard engineering inside Cupertino.

At times, the best way to get things done back then was Steve's people finding that one engineer or group of engineers keeping some part of the hardware or software design to themselves. Then Steve would fire them in the most unglorious manner sans a public flogging.

Yes, Apple has great engineering but it doesn't mean a damn if it lacks an aesthetic appeal. To the end user, the right case curve, color and shade will close the purchase long before someone is concerned about backwards binary compatibility.

And on that, then there was the ****-storm when old 68K native apps stopped running on Mac OS X. Guess someone would have to keep an older Mac around so they could run MacPlaymate.

 

[Fragtard]

I last met a person who upgraded his computer four years ago. Upgradability on computers, removable battery on phones & memory cards on tablets are interesting perhaps to less than 1% of the market.

Some people really need to stop trying to conserve technology products for ages and get a new device when the time comes, just like the rest of us. In 2014 tech products are designed to be easy to manufacture & be thrown away when their time comes. Deal with it

No. No freaking way.

I'm not going to "deal with it" just because you want me to. I can't afford to buy new hardware every year, but I can afford to upgrade and repair my devices (for the most part) until it's seriously time to splurge for new tech. I'm no technical wizard, but I can build my own Windows machines, upgrade my 2011 MBP, repair my wife's iPhone, etc. Apple's recent moves to restrict such activities in their products is nothing but an old-fashioned cash grab. They are counting on attitudes like your to fatten their bottom line. If you have the $$$ to donate to Apple and are inclined to do so, that's your business: godspeed and good luck. But don't tell me I ought to do likewise.

To repair and upgrade is empowering, and, as iFixit says, noble.

 

[AlecZ]

Now you have

This is posted from IE11, on Windows 8.1, on VMWare Fusion 7, on Yosemite, on my late 2012 quad i7 Mac Mini with 16GB of Crucial RAM.

Okay, but you're running OS X on it. Windows is in a virtual machine. That's not unexpected. I used to do that on my Mac Pro from time to time.

 

[crazzapple]

The world of upgrades that involved digging around inside the device was a weird temporary anomaly of the PC era. We don't expect it with phones, and shouldn't expect it with future PCs.

Phones are throwaway devices. A desktop computer shouldn't be.

 

[CFreymarc]

No. No freaking way.

I'm not going to "deal with it" just because you want me to. I can't afford to buy new hardware every year, but I can afford to upgrade and repair my devices (for the most part) until it's seriously time to splurge for new tech. I'm no technical wizard, but I can build my own Windows machines, upgrade my 2011 MBP, repair my wife's iPhone, etc. Apple's recent moves to restrict such activities in their products is nothing but an old-fashioned cash grab. They are counting on attitudes like your to fatten their bottom line. If you have the $$$ to donate to Apple and are inclined to do so, that's your business: godspeed and good luck. But don't tell me I ought to do likewise.

To repair and upgrade is empowering, and, as iFixit says, noble.

Reminds me of those who scarifies half their income keeping a high end sports car or motorcycle going to keep their "image" up.

If you can't run with the big dogs get off the street and go to a home build Linux box from parts you can buy for cheap and customize to your hearts delight.

Apple sells to people with creativity, money and productive sense of aesthetics. This is a high end product just moving into the mainstream.

To quote EpicLLOYD who played Bill Gates in their very productive Epic Rap Battles of History series, "People with jobs, use PCs."

 

[JoJoCal19]

Probably not going to hurt a bit, but they lost several sales on my end. I was going to add one to my MBP setup and was hoping for them to just upgrade the previous quad core CPUs. I was also going to get one for my mom and my inlaws. That's three sales they lost right there. Hopefully more do the same. Why would you take away the quad core CPUs and solder the RAM other than to give your faithful customers a big F U.

 

[CFreymarc]

Phones are throwaway devices. A desktop computer shouldn't be.

Then get a Windows or Linux box and customize your heart out.

Most that own Ferrari's don't modify the carbs for a few extra horsepower, they are more concerned with impressing clients and dates with their gear.

 

[palebluedot]

You know what's even worse? You can't add extra cache to the CPU! You can't swap out the FPU for a Weitek unit. You can't even replace the GPU.

Grow up people. It is PHYSICS, not malice that is making these devices ever smaller and less modifiable. The fastest, lowest power connection is the shortest connection. That leads to as much as possible on the same chip, then as much as possible on the same board. Soldered RAM is lower power today, and pretty soon the only way to run future speeds will be soldered RAM.

The world of upgrades that involved digging around inside the device was a weird temporary anomaly of the PC era. We don't expect it with phones, and shouldn't expect it with future PCs.

You are very wrong, IMHO. The ability to dig, tinker, and explore is what MADE people like Steve Jobs. You can credit his time tinkering and exploring at HP, and with Woz, as a large part of his development.

A phone should be a phone, it makes sense to lock it down. Locking down the content creator and tinkering device (a desktop computer) is foolish and shortsighted. Move out 50 years and you will have a generation of kids who consume the tools they use but have no idea how they work. This is a brilliant business model because you make people dependent on you and your "updates". This is a terrible social model for innovators and explorers.

As for "physics", why does a Mini need to be .XX mm smaller? BTW, my PC's RAM can destroy any soldered RAM in bus speed or any other metric. I get soldering ram on a MacBook Air, maybe even a MacBook Pro, iMac is a little tenous because technically it could be designed with .1 mm space, but the Mini and Mac Pro? No way.

It's amazing how many apologist there are on this forum. Then again, the other "side" is equally screaming about silly stuff as if this was the first time Apple chose a closed system over an open one. This is no different than the Apple under jobs, the bottom line is to wall the garden and keep you in it. This is good in some areas (phones) and bad in others.

I for one will be writing Apple a letter expressing these thoughts (even if it will fall into a catch-all account to be unread, most likely), as I am a share holder and think this may be a shortsighted move. Normal folks will still buy, but when you lose the hobbyists and diehard fans you start to become another commodity player. As a decades long Mac user, I'm conflicted in that Microsoft is playing the role of Apple of the late 90s-early 00s more and more now.

 

[calvol]

Apple got greedy on three counts with the soldered RAM:
1) Saves a few cents for a RAM socket
2) Increases revenue to Apple for RAM upgrades
3) Increased revenue from mobo repairs/replacements when RAM dies.

So, f/u Apple, keeping my 2011Mac Mini, I'm transitioning to Linux before it dies.

 

[CFreymarc]

Probably not going to hurt a bit, but they lost several sales on my end. I was going to add one to my MBP setup and was hoping for them to just upgrade the previous quad core CPUs. I was also going to get one for my mom and my inlaws. That's three sales they lost right there. Hopefully more do the same. Why would you take away the quad core CPUs and solder the RAM other than to give your faithful customers a big F U.

While that extra $100 less may not look like much, I'm sure there are even steeper discounts with the enterprise resellers that typically see in a dozen or so seats at once. This Mac Mini will do very well while brushing off those that bitch they can't afford a Mac Pro and settle for a Mac Mini.

 

[UpperQuadrant]

Of course most software is going to suck when there's so much of it.
You only get viruses on a computer nowadays if you are retarded.
Macs do offer higher security, but we'll only need a mainstream friendly linux (ubuntu 14.04 is not quite there yet) and Windows will become obsolete and with Linux you'll have as much if not more security.

Did some searching and by using some of them so heres a nice list of free software for your PC and a lot of them work on Mac and Linux too!

Office Program: www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/

Image Edititng: http://www.gimp.org/

Music Player: http://www.winamp.com/

Video Edititng: http://www.lwks.com/

Music Creation: http://lmms.sourceforge.net/home.php

You want free OS that works like Os X? Get a linux distro with drivers for your machine.

And if you really are in a production environment, the included Apple software sucks.

Whatever. I guess you know everything and that you are the leading expert in computers for the masses.

ProTools is the most widely used production software for DAWs, Logic is becoming almost as widely used. if you go to a professional studio, they usually have both.

Winamp isn't that great. I use a variety of 3rd party player apps like Amarra, Audirvana and PureMusic that leverages iTunes library and offers things like DSD support, FLAC support, and gives better sound quality. Winamp is junk. I would never use it. Winamp changed ownership and it's in limbo right now. I wouldn't recommend that as an alternative.

Office apps? most people use MS Office and on the Mac, the iWork suite works for average users and you get it free on OS X and iOS and it's meant to work together along with using the apps on a browser on any browser platform. I have been a long time MS Office user because the companies I worked for used it, it was the defacto standard and that's why I will continue to use it, but I am also starting to play around with the iWork suite and finding that it's actually pretty good for daily use. I've tried a number of freeware Office alternatives and never liked any of them. iWork is usable, but I right now use MS Office because I'm just used to using it since it first came out. Excel, Word I was using since the early days.

Final Cut Pro and Premier are the two top video editing that's the most widely used in video production. Others that are also widely used are Sony's products and Avid Media Composer, FREEWARE? Yeah, right. It's not the most widely used and adopted amongst the production work. Plenty of training available and plenty of on-going support.

Image editing, there are plenty of pay per use by companies like Adobe that are more widely used than gimp. Not that you can't use gimp, it's just not as widely used, and most people would rather use a product made/developed/supported by a reputable company that's publicly traded where they have an 800 Support line, etc.

Freeware are for the budget minded people that don't like to support companies that fuel the job market. Most freeware is badly supported.

FYI, in case you didn't read the memo, Linux for the desktop only has less than 2% market share on a global basis and their market share isn't really growing all that much. It's pretty much reserved for the geek users that don't have any or don't want to spend any money. Red Hat charges $300 a year for the license and support which is used in high end specialty workstation, but that's a VERY small niche market. It's not mainstream enough.

 

[CFreymarc]

Apple got greedy on two counts with the soldered RAM:
1) Saves a few cents for a RAM socket
2) Increases revenue to Apple for RAM upgrades
3) Increased revenue from mobo repairs/replacements when RAM dies.

So, f/u Apple, keeping my 2011Mac Mini, I'm transitioning to Linux before it dies.

Greedy or profitable? There is not contract nor regulation requiring removable RAM. Don't like it, buy something else.

It is obvious you don't know much about electronics manufacturing. While the part cost of a RAM socket may be that much, the labor and automation time to place on a slot and have the RAM SIMM inserted into the motherboard is a lot more.

When you are building in the 100K or millions of units, ever second a product is on an assembly line counts.

 

[JoJoCal19]

I've already started moving away from . I've stuck it out long enough. Nearly 20 years. It's just not worth the headache and the money anymore. Too many options out there.

I suggest others start considering it. I mean, Watch, really?

I'm kind of at a crossroads myself. I love my MBP and OSX in general, and have been using a Mac as my primary since the first Intel MacBook in 2006, but I'm kind of over Apple's attitude. This latest Mac Mini move is mind boggling. And I'm turned off from the rMBP from the issues I've read. And sticking 1GB of RAM in the iPhone 6/6+. Admittedly I will probably always use an iPhone as my primary unless Sammy or Motorola can truly unseat it in the camera department, but I work in InfoSec and I have no problem with the latest high end Wintel hardware and the upcoming Windows 10 and would be just as happy using it as my primary.

 

[Akula971]

Oh, but you see, the ROLEX will still be worth a lot of money 20 years from now whereas an apple watch will not be worth a crap 3 years from now. Watches are designed to last for a LOOOOONG time. But this apple watch won't even be supported 3 years from its release date.

That is exactly the point I'm making. They seem to want you to upgrade regardless, as the new software/gadget/whatever the've brought out won't work with your old reliable Mac. They don't care or want longevity, it is not their business model anymore.

 

[MiltonThales]

iMac better choice

Anyone considering the midrange or top-of-the-line Mac mini should take a careful look at the 21.5" iMac, middle of the line.

You get:
2.7GHz Quad-core Intel Core i5, Turbo Boost up to 3.2GHz
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2X4GB
1TB Fusion Drive
Intel Iris Pro Graphics

PLUS:
1920 x 1080 Display
Apple Magic Mouse
Apple Wireless Keyboard (English) & User's Guide

for $1,499 !

With the same ports, same WiFi.

The top Mac mini with a similar Dual-core config is $999 with a
Fusion drive too. And you will end up with more desk space, since the
system is tucked behind the iMac display.

The mini makes little sense anymore.
Unless you want a server Mac to go on a shelf with a bunch of other Macs.

I believe Apple is designing around Intel's CPU lines, and Intel isn't providing
processors that Apple can put into the mini at appropriate prices.
There is a reason there is exactly $500 difference between the two
machines.

 

[JoJoCal19]

While that extra $100 less may not look like much, I'm sure there are even steeper discounts with the enterprise resellers that typically see in a dozen or so seats at once. This Mac Mini will do very well while brushing off those that bitch they can't afford a Mac Pro and settle for a Mac Mini.

My thing personally is that I have no need for a Mac Pro. Do I want one and can I buy one? Sure. But it would be a waste. I was wanting a Mac Mini because it would slot in perfectly for my use. Thankfully I haven't yet upgraded my monitor so now I guess I will look at a riMac instead.

 

[compuguy1088]

What a discussion here ... not a long time ago computers had mainboards with physical bus systems, socketed CPU(s) and RAM. Components like video cards, network cards, harddisk controllers or sound cards could be plugged into the mainboard bus. This modular concept helped to repair and upgrade systems.

And now, only because Apple does this, everything soldered to one logic board should be a good thing ? It saves Apple a few cents in manufacturing and everything else is worse. Is this so hard to understand for some people ?

Outside of Apple, soldered ram is becoming more prevalent in machines that are extremely thin (ultrabooks).

 

[CFreymarc]

Whatever. I guess you know everything and that you are the leading expert in computers for the masses.

ProTools is the most widely used production software for DAWs, Logic is becoming almost as widely used. if you go to a professional studio, they usually have both.

Winamp isn't that great. I use a variety of 3rd party player apps like Amarra, Audirvana and PureMusic that leverages iTunes library and offers things like DSD support, FLAC support, and gives better sound quality. Winamp is junk. I would never use it. Winamp changed ownership and it's in limbo right now. I wouldn't recommend that as an alternative.

Office apps? most people use MS Office and on the Mac, the iWork suite works for average users and you get it free on OS X and iOS and it's meant to work together along with using the apps on a browser on any browser platform. I have been a long time MS Office user because the companies I worked for used it, it was the defacto standard and that's why I will continue to use it, but I am also starting to play around with the iWork suite and finding that it's actually pretty good for daily use. I've tried a number of freeware Office alternatives and never liked any of them. iWork is usable, but I right now use MS Office because I'm just used to using it since it first came out. Excel, Word I was using since the early days.

Final Cut Pro and Premier are the two top video editing that's the most widely used in video production. Others that are also widely used are Sony's products and Avid Media Composer, FREEWARE? Yeah, right. It's not the most widely used and adopted amongst the production work. Plenty of training available and plenty of on-going support.

Image editing, there are plenty of pay per use by companies like Adobe that are more widely used than gimp. Not that you can't use gimp, it's just not as widely used, and most people would rather use a product made/developed/supported by a reputable company that's publicly traded where they have an 800 Support line, etc.

Freeware are for the budget minded people that don't like to support companies that fuel the job market. Most freeware is badly supported.

FYI, in case you didn't read the memo, Linux for the desktop only has less than 2% market share on a global basis and their market share isn't really growing all that much. It's pretty much reserved for the geek users that don't have any or don't want to spend any money. Red Hat charges $300 a year for the license and support which is used in high end specialty workstation, but that's a VERY small niche market. It's not mainstream enough.

Someone with some sanity here instead of screaming they have no money and no product but want the world. I'd love to see an income demographic of those who post here.

This "free" software is exactly what you pay for. Most public domain software is a mix of student projects, anarchists and retired developers doing whatever they want with little market input. The UIs are clunky, who knows what spyware is inside the distribution and does not have much if any technical support.

Then when someone really cashes in on the freeware community, they are attacked by those who feel they are owed since they wrote some piece of it years ago. The Red Hat IPO and Minecraft sale to Microsoft come to mind here.

I've had plenty of time around a sound studio and was fortunate to be intimately connected to the early ProTool days. (Oh the stores and the studios you could get in knowing how to optimize Z transform code!) While the product technically was lacking at some levels, they had a wonderful service, sales and support group to major sound studios. This honed a great product for the masses that ran the market for almost a decade.