2016-17 MBPs should be called MacBook Air. Apple killed our beloved and functional MBP line

[aevan]

Maybe they have been doing this all along. I can't fully disagree with that. However, maybe for a lot of their most loyal followers they have finally gone too far. I can only speak for myself, but as an avid Apple user, I have begun looking over the fence much more seriously than ever before. Two years ago I would have never even given a thought to any computer other than a Mac. The only phone I would ever consider was an iPhone. That has changed, and at this point, I am not certain a MacBook Pro would be the top of my list when it is time for a new laptop. This is from someone that has had Mac only since the Intel switch, owned every iPhone, multiple Apple TVs, iPods, iPads etc. I am all in on Apple, and have begun to look at ways to unravel that. I don't think I am alone.

Perfectly fine. Personally, I don't think ports is a valid reason to switch, that's all. I don't get the whole ports situation, to be honest. So you carry a dongle or two, big deal. Price is a much more compelling argument for me, as you can get a similar laptop for quite a bit less money. Also, GPU performance - a good reason to look for alternatives. But ports? I just don't get it. Love the USB-C ports, tbh.

But, of course, everyone has different needs/views, so, no reason for me to debate this further.
[doublepost=1526893587][/doublepost]

It is not true, it is very stupid myth.

I disagree. Mac people who upgraded to the iMac back then had to throw away lot of external devices that wouldn't work anymore. USB was at its infancy. And the iMac was really popular because of how it looked, no how it worked, and people bought it because it was cool and fashionable. It made Apple what it is today.

Today, you can still use every single device you have. For 90% of them you just get a new cable, for the rest you attach a small, cheap adapter.

This is a non-issue that people use to express negative emotions towards Apple. All I'm saying is - out of all the reasons to be critical, the port situation is just silly. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Lord_Gareth]

I disagree. Mac people who upgraded to the iMac back then had to throw away lot of external devices that wouldn't work anymore. USB was at its infancy. And the iMac was really popular because of how it looked, no how it worked, and people bought it because it was cool and fashionable. It made Apple what it is today.

You disagree because You judge that thing ahistorically. How many external devices had typical Mac consumer in 1997? Most of them had modem, printer and scanner. iMac had modem built-in and its price was lower then Performa predecessor by 300$. For $ 350 you were able to buy Epson 740 and Umax scanner, both with USB.
"Pro" user had ADB graphic tablets, SCSI disks, printers and scanners and Jobs has applied an evolutionary path to them.

In terms of ports, SD card reader, etc., I have question. Do you use your laptop out of the office?

 

[aevan]

You disagree because You judge that thing ahistorically. How many external devices had typical Mac consumer in 1997? Most of them had modem, printer and scanner. iMac had modem built-in and its price was lower then Performa predecessor by 300$. For $ 350 you were able to buy Epson 740 and Umax scanner, both with USB.
"Pro" user had ADB graphic tablets, SCSI disks, printers and scanners and Jobs has applied an evolutionary path to them.

In terms of ports, SD card reader, etc., I have question. Do you use your laptop out of the office?

And now you get a cheap adapter.... You’re really stretching it, friend. You’re trying to prove how it’s somehow harder to get an adapter than getting a new printer and scanner.

I use my laptop in the office. I don’t see how that is relevant, if I was outside and balanced it on my lap or something, I guess thise dongles would be bothersome, but then again, so would any external device anyway. Just attach an adapter to every cable and think of it as part of the cable. Or, even better, replace the cable. As for the SD card slot, half the professionals couldn’t use the old one, anyway. I know at least two photographers that have old MBPs and have to use external readers because their cards are of different size.

I’m NOT saying less is better. I’m not saying that it’s better without the SD reader. I’m saying that for people using USB-A devices it’s a non issue. For those that really need an SD card reader - bummer, but you can get an external one. If you really don’t want one - I understand. But you are a specific case, then, and please don’t present this as “pros need an sd card reader” situation.

 

[Lord_Gareth]

First of all, you've changed the subject of the discussion a bit. I'm not trying to convince you that the new MBP is bad but make you realize that your thesis about Apple always making revolutions is wrong.

Forum users claiming that the new MBP is in fact a powerful MBAir are right. Jobs has created a standard for laptops for professionals and Cook has reduced them to a pancake that needs docks, adapters and a lot of different cables. You like this computer, the majority of existing Pro users are at least annoyed.

Second, what do you compare with iMac revolution?

In 1997 you could buy Performa 5400 without modem for $ 1700, in 1998 iMac G3 with modem, printer and scanner for $ 1,800. You could sell old things or buy dongles.

Cook's revolution looks so that in 2016-17 you pay for MBP $ 200 more than in 2015 and for this you need to buy a dock, 1-2 adapters and a container with compressed air.

And I agree, there are cameras and camcorders using specific cards, but SD is the standard for probably more than 90% of the equipment.

 

[aevan]

your thesis about Apple always making revolutions is wrong.

Never said that. Never.

I think they make some really cool products. "Revolutions"? "Always"? Classic argument on these forums.

Person 1: Apple is, basically, satan now.
Person 2: I dunno, I kinda like their new product.
Person 1: So, you're saying they are perfect, can do no wrong and would buy anything from them! Such a typical sheep!

Forum users claiming that the new MBP is in fact a powerful MBAir are right. Jobs has created a standard for laptops for professionals and Cook has reduced them to a pancake that needs docks, adapters and a lot of different cables. You like this computer, the majority of existing Pro users are at least annoyed.

The old MBPs had worse thermals, worse performance, worse screens. The new one is faster, has a better screen, has faster I/O (you know that there are a lot of professionals that actually benefit from Thunderbolt 3).

So, why are they not for professionals? Because they need adapters? OMG. Webster's Dictionary defines Professional as a person who needs a lot of ports.

And they don't need "a lot of different cables". It's the same as with any other port - you have an external device, you need a cable for it. Just replace those ending with USB-A with those ending with USB-C. Big deal.

Second, what do you compare with iMac revolution?

I am specifically comparing the ports situation to explain that Apple always did this, and it was even worse back then. They also removed the floppy drive, the CD-ROM, the ethernet port - all way before this latest MBP. It's how they operate. You don't have to like it, I'm not defending them. All I'm saying is: this is nothing new. This is typical Apple.

Cook's revolution looks so that in 2016-17 you pay for MBP $ 200 more than in 2015 and for this you need to buy a dock, 1-2 adapters and a container with compressed air.

Not arguing about price. I think they charge too much. I'm saying - of all the valid criticisms, ports are not something to fuss about. Please don't put words into my mouth. Again: in my opinion, the ports thing is not a big deal.

 

[Lord_Gareth]

Never said that. Never.

But... You said that...

I am specifically comparing the ports situation to explain that Apple always did this, and it was even worse back then. They also removed the floppy drive, the CD-ROM, the ethernet port - all way before this latest MBP. It's how they operate. You don't have to like it, I'm not defending them. All I'm saying is: this is nothing new. This is typical Apple.

All I try to show You is that Jobs "revolutions" was evolutions in reality. And Jobs always keep Pro line backward compatibile for a long time. He abandon death technologies, but that is not the case with new MBP. USB-A is not death, SD card is not death (in fact it is growing), MagSafe was not ancient...

The old MBPs had worse thermals, worse performance, worse screens. The new one is faster, has a better screen, has faster I/O (you know that there are a lot of professionals that actually benefit from Thunderbolt 3).

It's weird if it was slower, but remembering what happened to Mac mini in Apple under Cook, anything is possible. But... the right way for updating MBP is simple: 2x USB-C/TB3, 2x USB-A 3.1, MagSafe, HDMI and SD UHS-III, good keyboard + all typical screen, processor normal upgrades and You have almost perfect pro laptop... Almost because after 2-3 years You will replece "staingete" screen...

So, why are they not for professionals? Because they need adapters? OMG. Webster's Dictionary defines Professional as a person who needs a lot of ports.

No, professionals need a computer that does not multiply unnecessarily problems. And every adapter is a potential problem. It can break down, you can forget it and it just makes it difficult to use the equipment especially in the field.

And they don't need "a lot of different cables". It's the same as with any other port - you have an external device, you need a cable for it. Just replace those ending with USB-A with those ending with USB-C. Big deal.

Yes, if You use laptop as laptop not office computer it is problem generator. I know many cases when people did not have a cable that "was always in the backpack". That is why the fewer the combinations the better. The more popular the standard, the easier it is to find a replacement.

Not arguing about price. I think they charge too much. I'm saying - of all the valid criticisms, ports are not something to fuss about. Please don't put words into my mouth. Again: in my opinion, the ports thing is not a big deal.

You can not judge the decision to change ports without analyzing the whole situation. It's completely illogical.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

...
You can not judge the decision to change ports without analyzing the whole situation. It's completely illogical.

This round of the MacBook Pros is forcing us, the users, to adapt to the whims of the tool, the MBP. Ideally, it should have been the other way around.

- Adapt to dongle overload
- Adapt to the flat keyboard
- Adapt to a touch bar
- Adapt to an oversized trackpad that interferes with typing
- Adapt to a non-upgradeable, non-serviceable device
- Adapt to the flakiness of the keyboard
- Adapt to a riveted keyboard that will cost a bomb to fix even if a single key fails.

As a user, it looks like, instead of the tool helping us out, it is forcing us to make quite a few adaptations. Some of them are doable while some of them are not. When Apple introduced Firewire, they did not go all Rambo and remove the USB ports (even though Firewire was technically better than USB).

 

[Cashmonee]

This round of the MacBook Pros is forcing us, the users, to adapt to the whims of the tool, the MBP. Ideally, it should have been the other way around.

- Adapt to dongle overload
- Adapt to the flat keyboard
- Adapt to a touch bar
- Adapt to an oversized trackpad that interferes with typing
- Adapt to a non-upgradeable, non-serviceable device
- Adapt to the flakiness of the keyboard
- Adapt to a riveted keyboard that will cost a bomb to fix even if a single key fails.

As a user, it looks like, instead of the tool helping us out, it is forcing us to make quite a few adaptations. Some of them are doable while some of them are not. When Apple introduced Firewire, they did not go all Rambo and remove the USB ports (even though Firewire was technically better than USB).

This is exactly the point. And all of it applies to a "pro" machine. If this were the regular MacBook, no big deal, but on the pro machine, these are legitimate issues that will push people that rely on the machine for more than forums and Facebook to a more robust experience.

 

[Queen6]

This is exactly the point. And all of it applies to a "pro" machine. If this were the regular MacBook, no big deal, but on the pro machine, these are legitimate issues that will push people that rely on the machine for more than forums and Facebook to a more robust experience.

Exactly people don't get the problems dongles bring, as they likely have very few external connections. Dongles may or may not work or require one to plug things in in a specific manner / order. Keyboard is a joke with Apple waiting how long to resolve.

Personally I'm not hung up on the notebook needing to be so thin & light it compromises performance, I want relevant ports, I want both CPU & GPU performance, I don't want to be limited by RAM, storage options, battery capacity and hence why I eventually dropped Apple for my professional needs...

Currently considering yet another W10 notebook, 17.3", six core Intel i7 8750H, GTX 1070, 32Gb RAM, multiple drive bays, a massive 2.5Kg /s, no dongles required. There's thin & light and there's thin & light and performant, without compromising usability, something Apple has no clue how to produce...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

This round of the MacBook Pros is forcing us, the users, to adapt to the whims of the tool, the MBP. Ideally, it should have been the other way around.

- Adapt to dongle overload
- Adapt to the flat keyboard
- Adapt to a touch bar
- Adapt to an oversized trackpad that interferes with typing
- Adapt to a non-upgradeable, non-serviceable device
- Adapt to the flakiness of the keyboard
- Adapt to a riveted keyboard that will cost a bomb to fix even if a single key fails.

In general, I don't disagree with list, but I would like to point out that we who enjoy technology are always adapting. If we didn't adapt, we'd still be on floppy drives. I think at this point the issue with the dongles is overplayed. People have been carrying cables with their laptops since day one. At this point in the life cycle, there are many solutions that help reduce dongle overload so its really a moot point.

I have no idea why apple made the trackpad so ginormous, it really does get in the way, and with that I fully agree with you. In all fairness you list the keyboard three times (four if you want to include non serviceable bullet) As for the non-upgradeable product, that's what you get when a company decides that the laptop is an appliance that is better to be replaced then upgraded (or fixed). Sadly, we're not talking about a product that easily replaced, not at almost 3,000 dollars.

 

[Queen6]

In general, I don't disagree with list, but I would like to point out that we who enjoy technology are always adapting. If we didn't adapt, we'd still be on floppy drives. I think at this point the issue with the dongles is overplayed. People have been carrying cables with their laptops since day one. At this point in the life cycle, there are many solutions that help reduce dongle overload so its really a moot point.

I have no idea why apple made the trackpad so ginormous, it really does get in the way, and with that I fully agree with you. In all fairness you list the keyboard three times (four if you want to include non serviceable bullet) As for the non-upgradeable product, that's what you get when a company decides that the laptop is an appliance that is better to be replaced then upgraded (or fixed). Sadly, we're not talking about a product that easily replaced, not at almost 3,000 dollars.

Appliance being the operative term, great for Apple, for it's professional customers not so much...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

Appliance being the operative term, great for Apple, for it's customers not so much...

I'd say they miscalculated with that philosophy but yet their mac sales are very stout. I'm not a fan of the sealed system, not that I open up my laptop much but I think for repairability its a better move. Sadly with the obsession with thinness we only have sealed systems

 

[macjunk(ie)]

In general, I don't disagree with list, but I would like to point out that we who enjoy technology are always adapting. If we didn't adapt, we'd still be on floppy drives. I think at this point the issue with the dongles is overplayed. People have been carrying cables with their laptops since day one. At this point in the life cycle, there are many solutions that help reduce dongle overload so its really a moot point.

I have no idea why apple made the trackpad so ginormous, it really does get in the way, and with that I fully agree with you. In all fairness you list the keyboard three times (four if you want to include non serviceable bullet) As for the non-upgradeable product, that's what you get when a company decides that the laptop is an appliance that is better to be replaced then upgraded (or fixed). Sadly, we're not talking about a product that easily replaced, not at almost 3,000 dollars.

Well there are 4 different adaptations you need to make with respect to the keyboard. The dongle issue, to me, is a sign of extremism from Apple. While I admire the USB-C ports, there was no need for so many. A mix of ports would have been great. And I also don't think there was long term testing done on these things. My friend's MBP always disconnects from the monitor when connected via HDMI. He thinks the port is loose and I searched this forum for a problem like that: and lo, there are quite a few people complaining about loose ports on the new MBP.

So is this yet another problem with the MBP? What is causing it? My friend always has a hyperdrive connected to his MBP with various cables and drives connected to it. Does this arrangement put too much tension on the single USB-C port? Who knows?

As we all know by now, Apple really does not think too much about the long term reliability when they design their systems.