2020 iPhones May Have Full-Screen Touch ID, New iPhone SE Based on iPhone 8 Also Possible Next Year

[Eagle1337]

Finally TouchID! TouchID + FaceID will be the optimal authentication combination.

-and in your face to all the dudes who said Apple will never use TouchID again. Of course they will, but with better technology than the optical stuff the competition uses.

 

[NobodyOwens]

And a very good question. As the competition moves to true full-screen devices, the notch is becoming a problem for Apple. Unless they can somehow stuff all that Face ID tech behind the screen, I could see them returning to Touch ID.

I'm not a big fan of face ID. I've never used it myself, because I still own an iPhone 6s (in fact lack of screen-integrated TouchID is the main reason I'm sticking with my 6s), so I can't comment on its ease of use or reliability as compared to TouchID. But having observed my friends use it, I'm sure I don't want it. Don't get me wrong, they're all wax poetic about Face ID and how convenient it is. But for me, as the guy sitting opposite them, it's always such an eerie experience when – in the middle of the conversation – their faces turn death-mask-like whenever they want to surreptitiously check their phones. I don’t want to be a walking and talking memento mori multiple times a day.

That being said. It seem that Face ID has quite a dedicated fan base. So why not have both and let the customer choose? There’s nothing in the article to suggest that they will drop Face ID, which they still need for emoji and all the augmented reality stuff. So maybe, just maybe, this one time, Apple will really be pro-(consumer)-choice.

Also, there’s a lot of people here claiming that FaceID is safer than TouchID. Does anyone know of any independent security firm research? I mean, for all I know the claim is based on the fact that FaceID uses more individual reference points than Touch ID. But this comparison is predicated on the assumption that the reference points in both systems carry the same relative amount of information. But it’s possible that FaceID needs a signifficantly more reference points just to achieve the same qualitative result as TouchID, isn’t it? So, is there any data on that?

 

[Eagle1337]

I beg to differ. I am often having to do multiple swipes/attempts to get a successful authentication. TouchID worked much better for me and my use cases with near 0 re-attempts.

Spot on.

I think the combination would be perfect, FaceID + TouchID - im tired of hoovering my face over my phone when its on the desk to read the content of a sms or breaking news.

TouchID could be used on its own, whereas FaceID has several flaws as stand-alone authentication. I really hope they will embed TouchID.

 

[Shirasaki]

While I just bought latest iPhone XS Max and definitely not gonna upgrade this year unless something extremely crazy happens, I would love to see an alternative for Face ID. As of right now, I hold my iPad Pro lying on the bed. Without moving my head or changing iPad location, Face ID never works. Not a problem at all for Touch ID. And since using Face ID, I find myself needing to type Apple ID password or device passcode significantly more than before when using only Touch ID.

If 2020 iPhone has full screen Touch ID or some form of on-screen Touch ID, I could give it a shot and wait two or three generations for perfection. Current Face ID is too limited.
Aside from that, faster processor? Better camera? More Animoji? Uh... ok.

 

[teflonthadon]

I agree. In my experience FaceID has been much better than TouchID. However, it's possible Apple could include TouchID as a backup option for the times when FaceID is less convenient. This seems like an extra cost and unnecessary potential fail point though.

I love FaceID bc I don’t have to maneuver my finger to unlock my phone just to simply look at my phone and it unlocks is priceless

 

[macdragonfl]

Why not? Why can't Apple have Face ID on a $499 phone for markets like Africa and India? Ever heard of advances in technology or economies of scale? Sure worked very well for the iPhone 5S to get TouchID at mass scale. Apple was definitely NOT the first with biometric authentication and the process was very new and expensive. Yet 5S began at retail for $499 at launch. Hmmm.

Sorry 5s was $649 at launch.

 

[Marcusbond]

Restoring a small phone option to Apples iPhone range would be extremely welcome for me... my trusty iphone 5s is surely getting close to the end of it's life...

I've passed on all the other new iphones because of my number 1 reason... they were too big. Then they introduced Face ID and dumped Touch ID. Touch ID works really well for me, but the real problem with Face ID for me, is that I always cover my cameras with a bit of low-tack Washi masking tape when not actually using them, so Face ID just doesn't work for me. I'd prefer a headphone jack in the iphone too, but it's not an absolute deal breaker.

 

[sublunar]

The idea that a new SE would have the innards of an iPhone 8 is a little strange. The original SE came out a few months after the 6s (and using the same A9 CPU) which was the flagship phone at the time. The SE went on without major updates (just capacity changes) and finished selling brand new for under £200 at third party retailers in the UK after around three years on sale.

It's no longer available at major retailers brand new having been officially discontinued last year at the same time as he 6s it was based on was discontinued when the iPhone Xs and Xr came out, although in the UK Argos will sell you one for £299.

By way of comparison, an iPhone 7 32Gb can be had for £409 (Apple RRP £449) and that's a newer phone with A10 CPU.

In October, we can expect the 7 to be dropped, and the 8 will slot into the 'budget' range. If the 64Gb entry capacity is retained the 8 could drop to £499 from its current £599 RRP.

Why, then, would Apple release an SE based on a phone which will in theory be discontinued from their main lineup in October 2020?

It's fair to say that 3rd party retailers in the UK appear to be selling on remaining stocks of phones which Apple won't sell but it doesn't make sense for Apple to release an SE which can't remain on sale in the Apple stores for at least 2 years as the old model was.

Let's also not forget that the iPod touch is still woefully out of date - the A8 CPU was the same as what was used in the iPad mini 4 for 3.5 years before it was updated to the A12 CPU in the 5th generation model in March.

Although the SE may be available as new (and manufactured) in countries like India it would appear its not good enough for the EU/US from within an Apple Store. The iPod touch has to be crying out for an update of some sort.

At this stage, Apple could use the still-current A12 as the basis of any new SE and launch it before or at WWDC. This is the tier of Xs, Xs Max, and Xr so in marketing terms we could have Xse, Xe (or Xs Mini) as a late-arriving 4" phone with design cues from the Xr.

 

[Falhófnir]

The idea that a new SE would have the innards of an iPhone 8 is a little strange. The original SE came out a few months after the 6s (and using the same A9 CPU) which was the flagship phone at the time. The SE went on without major updates (just capacity changes) and finished selling brand new for under £200 at third party retailers in the UK after around three years on sale.

It's no longer available at major retailers brand new having been officially discontinued last year at the same time as he 6s it was based on was discontinued when the iPhone Xs and Xr came out, although in the UK Argos will sell you one for £299.

By way of comparison, an iPhone 7 32Gb can be had for £409 (Apple RRP £449) and that's a newer phone with A10 CPU.

In October, we can expect the 7 to be dropped, and the 8 will slot into the 'budget' range. If the 64Gb entry capacity is retained the 8 could drop to £499 from its current £599 RRP.

Why, then, would Apple release an SE based on a phone which will in theory be discontinued from their main lineup in October 2020?

It's fair to say that 3rd party retailers in the UK appear to be selling on remaining stocks of phones which Apple won't sell but it doesn't make sense for Apple to release an SE which can't remain on sale in the Apple stores for at least 2 years as the old model was.

Let's also not forget that the iPod touch is still woefully out of date - the A8 CPU was the same as what was used in the iPad mini 4 for 3.5 years before it was updated to the A12 CPU in the 5th generation model in March.

Although the SE may be available as new (and manufactured) in countries like India it would appear its not good enough for the EU/US from within an Apple Store. The iPod touch has to be crying out for an update of some sort.

At this stage, Apple could use the still-current A12 as the basis of any new SE and launch it before or at WWDC. This is the tier of Xs, Xs Max, and Xr so in marketing terms we could have Xse, Xe (or Xs Mini) as a late-arriving 4" phone with design cues from the Xr.

I read it as meaning it would have the iPhone 8 design/ shell with a newer chipset (presumably the newest A13 as an A12 would scarcely be worth it with the 8 already having the A11).

 

[sublunar]

I read it as meaning it would have the iPhone 8 design/ shell with a newer chipset (presumably the newest A13 as an A12 would scarcely be worth it with the 8 already having the A11).

As things stand this year, Apple will be discontinuing the 7 and making the 8 their entry level product - they could still offer it in 8 and 8 Plus forms of course.

But the next tier up would be solely occupied by the Xr - a 6.1" device. Just one size. The Xs and Xs Max would be officially discontinued as the X was before it to make way for the new phones.

Therefore there's a gap in the market where the iPhone 8 currently sits - a 64Gb iPhone that - in the UK - costs £599.

Granted, the Xr was designed to sit between the 8 and 8 Plus in price and a £100 price reduction would see it cost £649 in October, and then potentially cost £549 in October 2020.

But are Apple aware of people who would prefer a smaller phone than the Xr?

If, as you say, Apple belatedly create an iPhone 8s that takes the 8 body shell and puts in new hardware things could be a bit confusing in terms of marketing. They wouldn't need the '8s plus' because they already have an Xr but this '8s' may have to accommodate 3D Touch which is allegedly being phased out.

This is where a more through redesign could come in. We'd therefore see an Xe powered by the same A12 CPU using a screen size that's roughly the same as the 8 (4.7" 326ppi 1334x750) but with smaller bezels to make it more compact. Bring it out in time for the October A13 phone releases and the Xr will then have a smaller companion just in time for the price reduction to the middle tier.

Perhaps there might be room for FaceID, it could also be thicker to house a bigger battery and cameras. But people looking for a 'new' iPhone would be interested too just because it doesn't look like a 7 or 8.

The iPod touch could get a redesign to match as well.

I think WWDC is the last proper chance for Apple to release an A12 powered 4" SE sized device this year. After that they may as well launch an A13 powered Xe in October but that might thottle unit sales if they can't ramp up manufacture like they did with the 7 and 8.

If Apple are intending to launch an A12 powered device in October alongside the A13 iPhones but that could make it seem less of a sister product and more of a budget option again as far as I'd be concerned.

 

[zeesix]

In case you're reading this Apple, +1 to a premium small phone. I'm still holding on to me SE, and while it still works well, it would be nice to have the latest tech.

 

[sublunar]

Given the way the iPod touch was updated, adding a later generation CPU into the SE shouldn't need a lot of additional engineering work but I think Apple would be better off making a premium small phone given that their budget model in 15 months could end up being the 6.1" Xr.

It would be more expensive than the 7 is now (half a size up from the 7, with more storage) and very large for users who want something they can pocket properly or put in a bag.

And the Xr would be technologically way ahead of a reworked SE in so many other departments.

 

[Mac 128]

Given the way the iPod touch was updated, adding a later generation CPU into the SE shouldn't need a lot of additional engineering work but I think Apple would be better off making a premium small phone given that their budget model in 15 months could end up being the 6.1" Xr.

It would be more expensive than the 7 is now (half a size up from the 7, with more storage) and very large for users who want something they can pocket properly or put in a bag.

And the Xr would be technologically way ahead of a reworked SE in so many other departments.

And it makes you wonder why Apple wouldn’t just do the same thing with the SE and keep selling it.

About the only thing that makes sense where the iPod is more profitable than an SE is for Enterprise, and not consumer use. Plus, it doesn’t cannibalize from the overpriced, ailing iPhone lineup as the SE did.

That said, Apple could shrink the bezels of the iPhone 7/8 to offer a 4.7” display in more of an SE-sized package, which would cost more initially, but provide a new form factor which Apple can depreciate over time and eventually replace the entry level model, with SE-type upgrades, while reflecting the most recent design parameters, rather than the long in the tooth iPhone 5. I really hope that’s what they’ve done.

 

[sublunar]

And it makes you wonder why Apple wouldn’t just do the same thing with the SE and keep selling it.

About the only thing that makes sense where the iPod is more profitable than an SE is for Enterprise, and not consumer use. Plus, it doesn’t cannibalize from the overpriced, ailing iPhone lineup as the SE did.

That said, Apple could shrink the bezels of the iPhone 7/8 to offer a 4.7” display in more of an SE-sized package, which would cost more initially, but provide a new form factor which Apple can depreciate over time and eventually replace the entry level model, with SE-type upgrades, while reflecting the most recent design parameters, rather than the long in the tooth iPhone 5. I really hope that’s what they’ve done.

Discontinuing the SE (which is still supported under iOS 13 but has to be on borrowed time given the 6 and 6 Plus - on their 1Gb of RAM - has been dropped) without an immediate successor is probably key here. The SE/6s/6s Plus shows that the A9 CPU is the lowest spec device that is supported essentially a year after they were discontinued in Apple Stores. They are still being sold as brand new in 3rd party retailers including Amazon UK as an unofficial budget option but could be on borrowed time as iOS 14 could deprecate the SE/6s/6s Plus in 2020 - 2 years after Apple stopped selling them.

The 7th generation iPod touch has been updated to include the CPU from the iPhone 7 and has corporate or retail POS use over and above the 'classic' music user's use. Older phones usually get sold as second hand or end up as hand-me-down devices but the Touch probably signals that the iPhone 7 (using a similar CPU) will continue to get support for at least 2 more years (2021, iOS 15) but I can see the A10 CPU being good for 2022.

So iOS updates explains why the SE was discontinued last year, and for the same reason any new SE replacement sold by Apple would have a more up to date CPU than the Touch - and matching the Xr's A12 CPU seems like the way ahead as far as I'm concerned.

A smaller SE2 could come in as a mid tier 'small' option when the Xr 'goes midrange' in September. And it then could become an interesting budget option to replace the 8 when the Xr drops to Apple's entry level 'big' offering next year.

So by the time the Xr gets discontinued in 2021 the SE2 on the same A12 CPU as the Xr will get iOS updates until at least 2023.

 

[macjaffa]

=


I think you hit on something, it would be great to have BOTH face ID and touch ID. Face ID for the situations it works well, and touch ID for the situations face ID fails.

Of course, and passcode for when touch fails.

Seems a lot of people in this thread find it just INCOMPREHENSIBLE that you could have touchid and faceid together.

 

[beeboy100]

 

[Alan Wynn]

Seems a lot of people in this thread find it just INCOMPREHENSIBLE that you could have touchid and faceid together.

Given that for most people (those without an identical twin that can match Face ID) Face ID is much more secure, adding Touch ID just decreases the overall security of the device (one only needs to fool the least secure component). A trust-based model like that proposed by René Ritchie would be an improvement, increasing security and convenience at the same time. Until that is a reality, I hope we do not get a device that encourages less secure behavior.

 

[crcuilla]

Given that for most people (those without an identical twin that can match Face ID) Face ID is much more secure, adding Touch ID just decreases the overall security of the device (one only needs to fool the least secure component).

Your claim is based on the premise that the "least secure" method is enabled. I suspect Apple would provide the option to enable one, both or neither (passcode/PIN only). If you prefer the security of FaceID, you'd not enable TouchID and thus no vulnerability for you there. For those who prefer TouchID (or perhaps both depending on their situation) they may be willing to accept the security trade off.

The fact is we all accept security trade-offs or compromises all the time, every single day. It's called living.

 

[ZeitGeist]

Given that for most people (those without an identical twin that can match Face ID) Face ID is much more secure, adding Touch ID just decreases the overall security of the device (one only needs to fool the least secure component).

All you are doing is rationalizing your favoritism, while being factually and technically incorrect.

Furthermore a super-secure model is pointless if the UX and ease of use suffers significantly - as has happened with FaceID only.

Having both FaceID and TouchID for the appropriate and best use cases is where the user experience would be best served.

All this “ONLY FACEID IS BEST” are just manifestations of tech Stockholm syndrome, with little consideration for reality or overall experience.

Apple 86’d TouchID on the X model because they didn’t have the tech ready for TouchID under glass - so they fabricated and doubled down on a narrative of “its better” and “you don’t need TouchID (or a Home Button”) ... and all the stockholmers followed Jony Ive and Schiller down that rabbit hole.

Obviously, the moment Jony is gone, we hear about TouchID coming back, as well as (finally) a redesign of iPhone.

With TouchID returning, a virtual Home Button won’t be far behind - the good news is that all existing X models will benefit from iOS 14 bringing at least the Home Button (and Siri activation button) back, and hopefully the Home Swipe will be relegated to the oubliette, where it can join the iPod with 4 red buttons.

 

[ZeitGeist]

Until that is a reality, I hope we do not get a device that encourages less secure behavior.

finally if security is your reigning concern, you would only use the passcode, and turn either FaceID or TouchID off.

FaceID will unlock your device outside of your control. Both FaceID and TouchID represent ‘material evidence’ judicially - ie a judge can compel you to comply and unlock your device, because your finger and your face are materially available, and not protected under the law.

Your passcode, since it resides in your head, is protected under the rule against self-incrimination.

So, your entire argument falls apart and shatters on the rocks of hard reality:

https://9to5mac.com/2014/11/06/passcode-vs-touch-id-a-legal-analysis/

... though I suspect you will attempt to come back with various attempts at counter-arguments, or arguing that this isn’t about protecting criminals (!), but your own precious data, or something along those lines...

 

[Puiz]

Yeah well, bring back 3D Touch instead, I can't believe the top feature of the iPhone 11 is the removal of a unique and cool feature that Apple was too dumb to take proper advantage of. Any iOS device that lacks this feature feels broken to me. First, the headphone jack, now this... I know minimalism is very hip, but removing features is not something you do for the user, it's something you do for yourself and your ego, Apple. Kindly stop.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Yeah well, bring back 3D Touch instead, I can't believe the top feature of the iPhone 11 is the removal of a unique and cool feature that Apple was too dumb to take proper advantage of. Any iOS device that lacks this feature feels broken to me. First, the headphone jack, now this... I know minimalism is very hip, but removing features is not something you do for the user, it's something you do for yourself and your ego, Apple. Kindly stop.

I'm wondering how long until the speakers go away too..

And then the iPhone will ONLY work with Apple wireless headphone models.

I'm being hyperbolic - mostly - but think of how they'd spin it?
Super waterproof, almost zero holes save for tiny ear speaker and mic holes due to no speakers and wireless charging.

It's not as nuts as it sounds - lol - at least from Apple's perspective.

 

[macjaffa]

Do these people really believe that Apple will walk back on Face ID? After going with it on the iPads, the company has given more than enough evidence that it is fully invested in it. Never mind the fact that once you use Face ID you realize how much superior it is to Touch ID.

Its not superior in everyway. Like for example it doesnt work when its flat on my desk which is 80% of the time. Ive typed my passcode in Way more times with face id than I ever did with touch id. Thats one example.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

And it makes you wonder why Apple wouldn’t just do the same thing with the SE and keep selling it.

About the only thing that makes sense where the iPod is more profitable than an SE is for Enterprise, and not consumer use. Plus, it doesn’t cannibalize from the overpriced, ailing iPhone lineup as the SE did.

That said, Apple could shrink the bezels of the iPhone 7/8 to offer a 4.7” display in more of an SE-sized package, which would cost more initially, but provide a new form factor which Apple can depreciate over time and eventually replace the entry level model, with SE-type upgrades, while reflecting the most recent design parameters, rather than the long in the tooth iPhone 5. I really hope that’s what they’ve done.

The mini is all over the place as as credit card reader. Restaurants, trade shows, you name it. It's used in education too, which is probably the only reason they kept the headphone jack. (Kids use their own headphones, imagine the headache that BT headphones would be for a class of 20 kindergarteners)

 

[ErikGrim]

Its not superior in everyway. Like for example it doesnt work when its flat on my desk which is 80% of the time. Ive typed my passcode in Way more times with face id than I ever did with touch id. Thats one example.

Works perfectly fine for me flat on a desk. I only need to move my face to about a 30º angle overhead before I see the unlock animation.