Isn't that automatic, once they exceed the allowable number of engines for the season?
(edited: corrected 'engineers' to 'engines' which is what I had intended to say!)
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2021 Formula 1 Season Thread
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(edited: corrected 'engineers' to 'engines' which is what I had intended to say!)
Yes, I feel exactly the same way.
That would sure be great, I agree. And I feel the same way about Williams, too. But time moves on. How many years ago was it that we had Lotus, with Colin Chapman personally involved . . .
My understanding was a 10 grid penalty for the first new engine (4) then a 5 place grid penalty for number 5?
Something like that, yes.
(And by the way, I see that I mis-stated in my post, said 'engineers' when I was meaning 'engines'!! I've fixed that now. I don't know that they have some limit on replacing engineers!!).
Depends on what is changed. Each of the six main components of a Formula One engine is allowed to be changed up to three times during a season. The fourth change incurs a 10-place penalty and the fifth change onward incurs a 5-place penalty. If multiple components are changed, the penalties combine and if said combination is more than 15 places, the driver starts from the rear of the field.
Lewis has changed his ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) five times as of Brazil, so if that is what is being changed for Saudi Arabia, it would be a five-place penalty.
Indeed, Lotus wasn’t the same team once the family connection disappeared either. That name came back a few years ago and I don’t think anybody except those that worked out of Enstone believed it was a continuation.
Whether we are Lewis or Max fans, the one thing we can all agree on, isn’t it better having a two way fight still at this stage of the season? Makes it more interesting.
If that's the case then they are making a total mockery of the rules, it's meant to be 3 allowed this year unless failure forces you to use another. Not replace them to beat your rivals and win at will! That to me is way way worse then being run off the track and the FIA should intervene, I understand at least one other driver has complained of Mercedes' use of multiple engines this year highlighting how they can't afford to do that.
The engine rules are the same for all teams and there are no exceptions. The engine to be used in Saudi by Hamilton is the same engine he used in Brazil according to news today. It’s not a case of using too many engines and not being punished as per the rules, but the team deciding which engines to use at which tracks. The Brazil engine runs at a higher power which will suit Saudi but was removed for Qatar due to it offering little advantage. I don’t agree a strategy like that is worse than running a competitor off the track because one is a form of cheating and the other is using the rules to gain a technical advantage. People forget this is a team sport and a lot of the competition is the engineering race.
Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost had ‘qualifying engines’ in an era where small teams had no chance against the massive budgets of McLaren and Williams. These days with budget caps and a closer field with engine and drivetrain technology being frozen and shared, the performance gaps are much closer.
Thanks. I thought that was what Toto said in the Post Race, but some are now saying it’s the same engine as Brazil.
I‘d still prefer 3-4 able to win the WDC in the final 2 races.
Yeah if it is the exact same engine with no component swaps, then Lewis should not incur any penalty.
Agreed. All of the teams rotate their entire engines around races as necessary. They also tactically decide when to perform arguably unnecessary (in terms of reliability) component swaps so as to provide maximum performance (usually at the "power tracks" like Monza) .
Makes sense. I hadn't really thought about that before. Appreciate the insight!
I thought Mercedes had more money than the other teams and was milking those price caps, but looking into it it seems all the cars with the Mercedes engine have had to replace it multiple times this year due to reliability issues. Is also wasn’t referring to the turnaround of engines but how many they have used this year, new ones not recycled ones.
As we all know, even if teams were to spend more money during a season, this doesn’t mean they buy success. The sport is about engineering excellence, strategy and having a driver who is capable or steering that car to win consistently.
As Apple Fanboy said, Scuderia Ferrari have and have long had one of the biggest budgets and resources in F1. They have massively underperformed in the last 40 years despite their spending. Toyota were another example and had the ‘biggest’ budget in the sport before the price cap. They had 8 seasons in F1 and didn’t even record a single Grand Prix victory.
This season Mercedes stopped development for 2021 fairly early in the season to focus on 2022 as they thought they were dominant enough. That proved incorrect and Red Bull brought car developments that put them faster. Now Mercedes have reacted in the last quarter of the season (it’s a development sport) and people assume they are cheating or find it bewildering they’ve found some extra speed. Engineers wouldn’t be engineers if they didn’t constantly question a design and improve it.
40 years? Ferrari had a pretty solid 6, or 7, year run with Schumacer.
And Toyota, wow, that was underwhelming. They had 3 poles and 13 podiums.
The pole position earned by Jarno Trulli, USA 2005, was squandered because they didn't race that weekend due to the tire controversy with Michelin.
So much potential, and money, wasted there.
They had 5 consecutive years winning world championships but were title contenders and race winners later on in that decade. They’ve underperformed massively since 2008 and the 1980’s and early to mid 90’s were mediocre considering the huge sums of money they got from the sport just for being there. 3/4’s of that time period has been spent well off the top step.
Japanese companies are efficient but it’s always very slow to get decisions passed quickly. John Howett said his main frustration was designers and engineers trying to develop cars but every decision had to go through a boardroom in Tokyo and by the time the go-ahead was given, other teams had progressed by two tenths.
One of the reasons they aren't developing the car is because Mercedes we're blocked some development under the regulations, they were not allowed as much wind tunnel time for instance as they won last year, hence Red Bull caught up, then about half way through the season Mercedes we're allowed more time in the wind tunnel. Not all to do with next years car and all teams are developing for next year plus they've had an extra entire year to do so.
And Ferrari had a pretty dominant time in F1 so I'm not sure you can make the point, yes they haven't been as successful recently but they have so much scrutinisation over them because they got caught cheating.
Mercedes have more money then any other team using Mercedes engines, but it hasn't helped their poor reliability it seems.
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RIP Sir Frank!
An absolute F1 legend who overcame the giants of the sport on many occasions.
An absolute F1 legend who overcame the giants of the sport on many occasions.
Sad. He was a legend. They were the team to beat. Not been the same since they left the sport.RIP Sir Frank!
An absolute F1 legend who overcame the giants of the sport on many occasions.
