2025 Formula One Season Thread

[danny842003]

I believe in the legal system. This was independently reviewed. Sure not tested in court, that moment is due next year...So yes it could be, but based on the available facts that is not the case and nothing more but slanderous speculations.

The fact it’s apparently going to court is damming. That would only happen with evidence.
Now wrong doing legally is not what I am talking about. The fact he has got himself in this position in the first place shows a lack of judgment.
You can be innocent of wrong doing legally and still not be acting professionally. They’re not mutually exclusive.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

The fact it’s apparently going to court is damming. That would only happen with evidence.
Now wrong doing legally is not what I am talking about. The fact he has got himself in this position in the first place shows a lack of judgment.
You can be innocent of wrong doing legally and still not be acting professionally. They’re not mutually exclusive.

No it is not, if that is what you think you know nothing about the employee tribunal system in the UK. There is no threshold of evidence before the proceedings.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

The choice of words is interesting. If someone leaves by 'mutual consent', there is a contract in place for severance pay. If someone is 'sacked', it is due to gross misconduct (whatever that is in this case), and the employer is not obligated to reach a financial settlement. Usually if someone high profile is sacked, it is not usually worded as such. I know the term is often used in football and managers still get pay off's, but I thought it might be slightly different in F1 where the legal side is a lot more thorough.

 

[danny842003]

No it is not, if that is what you think you know nothing about the employee tribunal system in the UK. There is no threshold of evidence before the proceedings.

you said it’s going to court next year. You’re saying there’s no threshold for evidence in court either?

 

[CWallace]

Watching LawVS's video about it and it sounds like the environment within the team had become too toxic. There were reports Max and Christian had a royal row after Silverstone and Red Bull Racing has lost a number of senior technical people over the past year to other teams.

The RB21 has been developed into a corner that it cannot be developed out of and I expect there is now fear about the RB22's development. Red Bull Racing might be fighting for fifth in the CC this year and that is just not acceptable to the C suite.

Laurent Mekies is moving over from Racing Bulls to replace Horner and I expect he is going to seriously shake-up the Red Bull technical team and Technical Director Pierre Waché is likely to be sacked in the very near term. Alan Permane is the new Racing Bulls team principal.

 

[CWallace]

Speculation is swirling where Christian may go, though I think most do not understand Horner likely has 12-24 months of "gardening leave" ahead of him. However, one I think might happen is he leads a buy-out of Alpine since I expect by now Renault wants to sell the team.

 

[Apple fanboy]

So either Max stays at RBR and Christian walking was part of that agreement. Or some more ‘evidence’ of wrong behaviour has come to life.

Doesn’t he own or part own vecarb (racing bulls, Torro Roso) though? If so will he go there?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

you said it’s going to court next year. You’re saying there’s no threshold for evidence in court either?

That is correct, an employment tribunal is part of the courts. The threshold isn't about evidence, it is about the time limit during which a claim is made. Look, I'm happy to explain, just ask. But don't start arguing about it, considering you are clearly using irrelevant arguments.

 

[CWallace]

So either Max stays at RBR and Christian walking was part of that agreement. Or some more ‘evidence’ of wrong behaviour has come to life.

We know with the passing of Dietrich Mateschitz, there became a "tug of war" between Oliver Mintzlaff and Chalerm Yoovidhya about whether or not Horner should remain as Team Principal and how much control Red Bull Gmbh should have over the team. Sounds like Oliver Mintzlaff was able to get his way and push Horner out so he can exert more influence and control over the team.

In addition to Horner, Chief Marketing Officer and Oliver Hughes and Group Director of Communications Paul Smith also left (both were firm allies of Horner).

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Just seen a video of Horners exit speech he made to the team announcing he was leaving and how much of a shock it was. Towards the end he breaks down and they clap to show their appreciation.

Martin Brundle thinks the Verstappen’s applied the pressure for the push from a brief interview I read. I do think this Red Bull era is coming to an end and they are struggling with development. Next years car is rumoured to have them concerned. The fact they have a car only one driver can wrestle is pretty much every teams nightmare. Especially now as Max is struggling for grip and pace by his own admission. It might actually be a blessing in disguise for Horner as he’ll be hot property now, especially for Ferrari and perhaps Alpine with him buying into that team once Renault sell it.

 

[danny842003]

That is correct, an employment tribunal is part of the courts. The threshold isn't about evidence, it is about the time limit during which a claim is made. Look, I'm happy to explain, just ask. But don't start arguing about it, considering you are clearly using irrelevant arguments.

So you know for a fact there’s no evidence of any potential wrong doing by Horner?

 

[Pezimak]

From what I can gather, Horner had a huge argument with Jos, no surprise there, but since the sexting scandal Jos stated either Horner goes or Max goes, I doubt he gave Max any choice in the matter, knowing Jos probably threatened to brat him up if he argues against him. So Jos won.

IMO unless proven guilty Horner should stay, his track record speaks for itself, and Jos should just be barred from any races or Red Bull facilities, he is not in any position officially or otherwise to dictate who is employed and runs the team.

 

[Pezimak]

Just seen a video of Horners exit speech he made to the team announcing he was leaving and how much of a shock it was. Towards the end he breaks down and they clap to show their appreciation.

Martin Brundle thinks the Verstappen’s applied the pressure for the push from a brief interview I read. I do think this Red Bull era is coming to an end and they are struggling with development. Next years car is rumoured to have them concerned. The fact they have a car only one driver can wrestle is pretty much every teams nightmare. Especially now as Max is struggling for grip and pace by his own admission. It might actually be a blessing in disguise for Horner as he’ll be hot property now, especially for Ferrari and perhaps Alpine with him buying into that team once Renault sell it.

I do know since Newey left, the team went from one captain leading the design and car improvements to many who can’t decide what to do, and that is why the development has suffered so much. I thought they would have sorted it out but doesn’t seem like it. But sacking Horner is NOT the solution. This has Jos Verstappen fingers all over it.

 

[danny842003]

I do know since Newey left, the team went from one captain leading the design and car improvements to many who can’t decide what to do, and that is why the development has suffered so much. I thought they would have sorted it out but doesn’t seem like it. But sacking Horner is NOT the solution. This has Jos Verstappen fingers all over it.

You only have to look at Mercedes to see how hard it is to get out of an aero hole once you’ve got yourself stuck.
The ownership structure at Mercedes appears to be much better suited though.
Once Dietrich Mateschitz died RBR have no protection from corporate idiots meddling it looks like RBR could be the next Ferrari.

My biggest issue with the financial rules as they stand is it sabotages teams for years if they make a mistake and I don’t believe that’s what sport should be.

 

[Glideslope]

I do know since Newey left, the team went from one captain leading the design and car improvements to many who can’t decide what to do, and that is why the development has suffered so much. I thought they would have sorted it out but doesn’t seem like it. But sacking Horner is NOT the solution. This has Jos Verstappen fingers all over it.

Probably a combination of performance, the upcoming Civil Suit,Team Verstappen drawing a line over going through all that again, and Max using Mercedes as a threat. I hope Max leaves, but the more I read it looks like Christian was let go to keep Max.

Unfortunate if true. RBPT sure looks like it’s laying an egg for 2026. I’m curious if Ford was consulted on Horner’s demise?

Lousy situation to be in. Sure looked like allot of shredded employees at that Horner speech.

 

[Pezimak]

Probably a combination of performance, the upcoming Civil Suit,Team Verstappen drawing a line over going through all that again, and Max using Mercedes as a threat. I hope Max leaves, but the more I read it looks like Christian was let go to keep Max.

Unfortunate if true. RBPT sure looks like it’s laying an egg for 2026. I’m curious if Ford was consulted on Horner’s demise?

Lousy situation to be in. Sure looked like allot of shredded employees at that Horner speech.

A successful team, even if they are sitting fourth of fifth this year, looked pretty deflated. Not good for team morale. I mean it is half way through the flipping season! They now have to return in a few weeks time with a completely different Team Principle in the same season! Very stupid IMO.

 

[JustinePaula]

Actually would have been better 1/1 2025, but we cannot always have nice things, and this is actually a great time to have the change of management, going into a new era in 2026---> The wise ancient Yoda has left, along with a raft of PHD's to teams anew.. With the new regs and new teams, new cars, new...

Maybe there was a fundamental clash of ideas with regards the car for 2026, we might see 1 or 2 new drivers in the team, Maybe Minimum serves 1 yr [doubt it, new regs, might as well be in a new team..] Or Red Bull is sold [or has been sold and Chris was opposed..]..

We wait to find out the real reason, and even if Chris comes on F1 website and published a tell all, would it be 100% or would he tailor his words? Nothing anyone says in F1 can be taken as truth, it is mandatory to filter speech so as to not offend he who is Lord himself MBS...

Maybe he Chris had words with MBS, and there was a deal struck, fire Chris or....dot dot dot...

We have weeks before the next race and months before the new regs are legal tender in F1.. So making changes now early July would be the best time, after all this is pretty much the coasting into history, old cars, old regs, teams admitting to really be thinking of 26 cars and not so much on 25 cars..

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Probably a combination of performance, the upcoming Civil Suit,Team Verstappen drawing a line over going through all that again, and Max using Mercedes as a threat. I hope Max leaves, but the more I read it looks like Christian was let go to keep Max.

Unfortunate if true. RBPT sure looks like it’s laying an egg for 2026. I’m curious if Ford was consulted on Horner’s demise?

Lousy situation to be in. Sure looked like allot of shredded employees at that Horner speech.

That is the sad thing about this situation, if immediate improvements are not seen by the Verstappens, they'll turn on their heels and leave, leaving a once extremely successfull team, in a period of panic to rebuild from the demands they have rumoured to have made. The employee's did look very upset by this decision and naturally in F1, some people will follow to other teams. It will be interesting to see how the new dynamic works and personally, I hope Max stays to see it through. Mercedes need to sign George as he's been loyal and really upped his game this year. If they do have to replace a driver, I think Kimi needs perhaps a reserve role for a year or two, or a drive in a team further back to learn the ropes. He is clearly a huge talent, but at times he looks like he is far from ready IMO.

Christian will have a year off and I'm sure by the beginning of next season there will be news on a future appointment for him. There was talk years ago before F1 was sold off, that he would be Bernies successor as head of FOM. I think he is too competitive for that and is far too young for that role. Maybe he will buy Alpine off Renault and start his own team as I have seen suggested. The talk about him going to Aston Martin is doubtful I think, not sure Adrian would like that.

 

[danny842003]

That is the sad thing about this situation, if immediate improvements are not seen by the Verstappens, they'll turn on their heels and leave, leaving a once extremely successfull team, in a period of panic to rebuild from the demands they have rumoured to have made. The employee's did look very upset by this decision and naturally in F1, some people will follow to other teams. It will be interesting to see how the new dynamic works and personally, I hope Max stays to see it through. Mercedes need to sign George as he's been loyal and really upped his game this year. If they do have to replace a driver, I think Kimi needs perhaps a reserve role for a year or two, or a drive in a team further back to learn the ropes. He is clearly a huge talent, but at times he looks like he is far from ready IMO.

Christian will have a year off and I'm sure by the beginning of next season there will be news on a future appointment for him. There was talk years ago before F1 was sold off, that he would be Bernies successor as head of FOM. I think he is too competitive for that and is far too young for that role. Maybe he will buy Alpine off Renault and start his own team as I have seen suggested. The talk about him going to Aston Martin is doubtful I think, not sure Adrian would like that.

I’m not sure even spice girl wealth is enough to purchase a team.
Surely he would only head a consortium as a part owner.

 

[Glideslope]

That is the sad thing about this situation, if immediate improvements are not seen by the Verstappens, they'll turn on their heels and leave, leaving a once extremely successfull team, in a period of panic to rebuild from the demands they have rumoured to have made. The employee's did look very upset by this decision and naturally in F1, some people will follow to other teams. It will be interesting to see how the new dynamic works and personally, I hope Max stays to see it through. Mercedes need to sign George as he's been loyal and really upped his game this year. If they do have to replace a driver, I think Kimi needs perhaps a reserve role for a year or two, or a drive in a team further back to learn the ropes. He is clearly a huge talent, but at times he looks like he is far from ready IMO.

Christian will have a year off and I'm sure by the beginning of next season there will be news on a future appointment for him. There was talk years ago before F1 was sold off, that he would be Bernies successor as head of FOM. I think he is too competitive for that and is far too young for that role. Maybe he will buy Alpine off Renault and start his own team as I have seen suggested. The talk about him going to Aston Martin is doubtful I think, not sure Adrian would like that.

I agree. I do want George to stay at Mercedes. I'm still not confident he will end up with anything other than a 2+1 at the most. George and Max would be exciting. I think Toto would be up to the challenge. I was reading an article on Max's "reported" exit clause pertaining to his position in the WDC by the end of July. He could trigger his exit clause, and stay at Red Bull. That would theoretically make it easier to leave at any time. What ever happens to Kimi, I just hope it's a career positive. I have a positive feeling about him. I don't see Mekies having the inner fortitude to unbend this conundrum. He has been a positive for Racing Bulls, but not a savior. Hajar deserves most of the credit IMO. I don't see Christian at AMR. The rift between Adrain and Christian seems steadfast, but situations can change. Who knows, perhaps they could reestablish what they once had in the absence of Helmut and Jos?

Regardless of his personal flaws (it's that being human issue again) I do think Christian has been one of the greatest TP/CEO's ever. I hope he is given another chance. His abilities to contribute to F1 are clear. Nobody with his level of contributions and knowledge deserves to be treated like this.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I’m not sure even spice girl wealth is enough to purchase a team.
Surely he would only head a consortium as a part owner.

He would be a part owner for sure. Christian is worth £36m on hos own and £440m as a couple with his wife. Their networth is about the cost of a midfield team and they don't have that sort of cash available. I think he'll partner up with a consortium as you say.

 

[laptech]

In 2004 Red Bull Racing purchases Jaguar F1 team. Christian Horner joins Red Bull Racing in January 2005 and 10 months later brings Adrian Newey to the team and that partnership takes the RBR team to new heights. The partnership between the two men being in the team made what RBR is today and with Newey leaving that strong partnership crumbled. I feel Horner needed Newey more so than Newey needed Horner and with Newey now gone it has started to all fall apart at RBR. There appears to be a lot more infighting and squabbling going on, the cars are struggling, the drivers are struggling, other key people and engineers have started to leave and all of these taking place not long after Newey leaves the team.

Horner was an excellent team principle because of the fact he had an excellent chief technical officer (Newey) behind him. With Newey gone Horner lost his right hand man so to speak and as a result it started to all crumble around him.

 

[avro707]

Too much squabbling and not enough focus on getting the cars working better.

And a car that is said to be great for just one driver seems a really bad idea. What if anything happens to that driver, or the car goes bad? Then you are stuffed.

Hopefully the mess doesn’t end up taking the rank and file workers down with it.

I’d like to see Dr Marko gone as well. Fresh people are needed who can pull things back together.

 

[laptech]

Horner and Newey were at RBR right at the start when it bought Jaguar F1 therefore RBR do not know any different. Both of them with the help of other talented people at RBR made it what it is today but it was mainly those two. Now those two have gone it means a new era for RBR. Will their replacements be able to keep RBR at the top?

A classic example of a sports team downfall is the football club Manchester United. It took the man a few years (5 in fact) but Sir Alex Ferguson eventually made the club into a power house when the premier league was created. This continued during his tenure at the club and it all came crumbling down when he resigned. The club have gone from bad to worst. Now with Horner and Newey gone, is RBR going to suffer the same fate as United? Time will tell.

 

[Herdfan]

I do find it a bit ironic that if Max is 4th or lower by the summer break, he can break his contract with no penalty. But the guy who he rumored to be replacing, is currently sitting in 4th.