250 MPG

[cslewis]

Doesn't it take more energy to extract hydrogen than it produces?

Yes, producing hydrogen via electrolysis yields a net energy deficit. But if the energy is being obtained from renewable sources, does it really matter? Electric cars would, of course, be more efficient because they eliminate the electrolysis step... however, people aren't too thrilled about electric cars. With today's technology, range is very limited, recharge times are very slow, and the vehicle's performance isn't very impressive. I think that unless these obstacles can be tackled by some new battery, we're loooking toward a hydrogen future, regardless of hydrogen production inefficiencies.

 

[crazytom]

There's many reasons why the U.S. doesn't have very fuel efficient cars.

The biggest one is ol' Dubya. He's an oil man...so is Dick Cheney...enough said.

Next is your auto makers. To make an efficient vehicle, you can't have all of the bells and whistles in a car (due to weight concerns). Without all that crap, they can't make a huge profit, so they cram SUV's, Hummers, and small (and not fuel efficient) cars like the BMW Mini Cooper down our throats. You think they'll actually do something for the greater good of the world and the environment? HA!

Lastly is the general public. They want their 'status symbol' and want to 'feel safe'. Bigger is better, right?

I'm all for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. I own two, one's a '91 Geo Metro and I'm going to keep it going for as long as I can (at 40-45 mpg, I can't afford not to!) I'm almost happy to see gas skyrocket. I laugh every time I see a Hummer or Navigator or other big SUV with a single person driving it. I know they'll be paying almost $100 every time they hit the gas pump (which goes to Dubya, his buddies, and the folks we're so busy fighting wars with)....

 

[dops7107]

I think that unless these obstacles can be tackled by some new battery, we're loooking toward a hydrogen future, regardless of hydrogen production inefficiencies.

The main problem with hydrogen at the minute is the catalysis step. It requires platinum, one of the rarest elements in the Earth's crust. There is not enough platinum in the world to convert all the fossil fuel-based vehicles into hydrogen-based ones. No doubt there may be some innovation using a clever metal alloy (I seem to recall a paper in Nature regarding iron-based catalysis), but until then, hydrogen's a dead-end.

Can't make wild claims without some justification: here

and regarding iron catalysis: Nature

 

[dops7107]

There's many reasons why the U.S. doesn't have very fuel efficient cars.

The biggest one is ol' Dubya. He's an oil man...so is Dick Cheney...enough said.

Bush is an absolute scandal. How he ever made president escapes me. How can a president make balanced, informed decisions when he has such a vested interest? It should be illegal. But hell, land of the free etc.

 

[JesseJames]

I think the government should make a big push for bio-diesel in the nations trucking industry. Think about it. It's a great pilot program to see if an alternative fuel can be made economically viable.
Hydrogen powered cars is still a long way off. No real innovators out there with that "Ah ha!" moment. That genius has yet to be discovered.

Here's a trucking company doing something about it:
trucking link

 

[Les Kern]

I think that both politacl parties are to blame equally.

Not in equal amounts, no matter the party you happen to follow. I remember Clinton pushed hard for raising the average MPG in cars in America over 10-20 years. He got shot down by the GOP house, which was drowned by lobbyists. Also, he wanted tax breaks for companies that bought fuel efficient cars. That too was shot down... and as a matter of fact Bush and the GOP controlled house give tax breaks for buying a Hummer or other gas-guzzlers. Check it out. No, really... check it out. When you do, you can tell me where the good for US is that they purport to exude.

 

[Les Kern]

The main problem with hydrogen at the minute is the catalysis step. It requires platinum, one of the rarest elements in the Earth's crust. There is not enough platinum in the world to convert all the fossil fuel-based vehicles into hydrogen-based ones. No doubt there may be some innovation using a clever metal alloy (I seem to recall a paper in Nature regarding iron-based catalysis), but until then, hydrogen's a dead-end.

Can't make wild claims without some justification: here

I'm no chemist... but I can read. I agree totally. Also, FermiLabs and some other big-time scientists say that we are pretty much at the end of battery design, and that they can't see us cramming more power into a smaller space at our present level of knowledge. The answer is "make power" for the battery technology we DO have. How do we make power? Nuclear, Hydro, solar and wind.

 

[JesseJames]

How deep are your pockets and how many lobbyists can you afford?
hooray U.S.A.

 

[Les Kern]

i wish you yanks would stop complaining about aparently high fuel costs.

1 us gallon = 3.785 litre
uk fuel costs = 88.9p per litre

the magic F12 button (calculator and unit converter) tells me that at current exchange rates that works out at $6.04 ish per US Gallon.

True, but you're missing one crucial fact. (This is convoluted, but bear with me)
I live in Illinois, my family lives in Maryland. I pay 7 grand for property tax. My family pays 2K for a bigger house. They pay a 50% ADDED tax for their county in a state that has taxes in the top 10% in the nation, while Illinois is 49th in the US. I pay $1.29 for a gallon of milk. They pay $3.00.
All things being equal, we all pretty much pay the same amount in the US.
Now I know that in the UK they pay more in taxes than we do... a lot more. But we don't have national health, as an example. A gallon of gas in England is exactly the same as the states because we buy in the same market, you just tack on taxes that pay for services, services I WISH we had.

 

[cslewis]

The main problem with hydrogen at the minute is the catalysis step. It requires platinum, one of the rarest elements in the Earth's crust. There is not enough platinum in the world to convert all the fossil fuel-based vehicles into hydrogen-based ones. No doubt there may be some innovation using a clever metal alloy (I seem to recall a paper in Nature regarding iron-based catalysis), but until then, hydrogen's a dead-end.

Can't make wild claims without some justification: here

and regarding iron catalysis: Nature

Hydrogen powered cars aren't limited to using fuel cells. BMW and other car companies have experimented with and implemented engines that burn hydrogen.
http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/h2r_racer.htm

 

[mikeyredk]

We need more nuks!!! $4 bucks kwh rather than upwards of $80 for Natural gas. But the politicians will not get of their behinds and build that darn salt mine

 

[kalisphoenix]

I propose we just shoot it into space. Towards the sun or something...


Lethal

A nice idea, but the chemicals from current rockets would cause more harm to the environment than would the decay of the nuclear waste.

</ex-nuclear power plant operator>

 

[LethalWolfe]

I'm all for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. I own two, one's a '91 Geo Metro and I'm going to keep it going for as long as I can (at 40-45 mpg, I can't afford not to!) I'm almost happy to see gas skyrocket. I laugh every time I see a Hummer or Navigator or other big SUV with a single person driving it. I know they'll be paying almost $100 every time they hit the gas pump (which goes to Dubya, his buddies, and the folks we're so busy fighting wars with)....

Oh wow. This post has some of the best irony ever. You want gas prices to go higher (even though they are taking a big chunk out of your wallet as is) because you think it means the rich dude/dudette in the Hummer is getting "punished." LOL, yeah they pay more each time they fill up, but they obviously have money to burn so they don't even blink an eye about it.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Who is effected more by higher gas prices, the guy making 24k a year or the guy making 500k a year?


Lethal

 

[cslewis]

Oh wow. This post has some of the best irony ever. You want gas prices to go higher (even though they are taking a big chunk out of your wallet as is) because you think it means the rich dude/dudette in the Hummer is getting "punished." LOL, yeah they pay more each time they fill up, but they obviously have money to burn so they don't even blink an eye about it.
Lethal

Heh. A surprising amount of SUV gas-guzzler buyers aren't super-rich. Many of them are relatively ordinary people. I think they will have to skimp a little bit with their budgets just like the rest of us if gas prices continue their metroric climb.

 

[crazytom]

Oh wow. This post has some of the best irony ever. You want gas prices to go higher (even though they are taking a big chunk out of your wallet as is) because you think it means the rich dude/dudette in the Hummer is getting "punished." LOL, yeah they pay more each time they fill up, but they obviously have money to burn so they don't even blink an eye about it.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Who is effected more by higher gas prices, the guy making 24k a year or the guy making 500k a year?


Lethal

I see what you mean, but I doubt it will make the book of "Best Irony Ever"....note the word "almost" in my post. Actually, I'm quite pissed about single drivers in big @ss vehicles. For the most part, they don't give a second thought about the environment, gas prices, and the fact that they're guzzling so much gas that it just adds fuel (no pun intended) to the US/Middle East fire. Where would Saudi Arabia be without oil? : The Stone Age. Can you tell I don't make $500K a year?

Dubya infuriates me when he says, "We must lower our dependence on foreign oil." Why? Because he should be saying, "We must lower on dependence on oil." But, again, you'll never hear an oil man say such a thing.

 

[crazytom]

<snip>

I pay $1.29 for a gallon of milk.

OK. OT here, but where do you find milk for that price? I pay $2.79 anywhere I go.

Back on topic....don't forget that Illiniois has the highest gas tax: $.30 per gallon!!!

 

[highres]

I saw THIS article, and it got me to wondering...
I KNOW that energy isn't free, that even if we have to supplement the Prius with house current that we pay in the end... but that doesn't take into account how our recent energy bill was the biggest rip-off suffered by the American people in a long time. Exxon posts a 6 BILLION profit in THREE MONTHS and gets a tax break, as do all other corporations. There is LESS money for research. Bush's cronies are happy. The Saudi's are happy. Wall Street is happy. The energy companies (who WROTE the energy bill) have industrial strength woodies.
But you and me? $3.00 a gallon and climbing.
Think about it... IF we push for nuclear, solar, wind and hydro power, then we can afford to plug in those Prius's. But no. Not in America.
In 1960 Kennedy said that by 1970 we will land on the moon. Today we have no vision. We have no leadership that will look beyond the hand of the lobbyists straight into the eye of the American people and say : "We need to do this for you". Instead they say "We're going to do it to you".
Where is the outrage, sheeple?

My question about battery/hybrid alternatives is where to all the old batteries go? Many opponents fear large battery landfills/dumps. For instance the US Navy has been cited for doing mass battery dumps in the ocean off the coast of California and causing all types of problems for sealife, etc.

 

[-hh]

My question about battery/hybrid alternatives is where to all the old batteries go? Many opponents fear large battery landfills/dumps.

Short answer: Google.

Longer answer: Approx 90% of all lead used in products today is recycled.


-hh

 

[-hh]

I don't really get this idea. Normal hybrids use the battery at slower speeds, like when they are accelerating, and then switch to petrol at higher speeds, since cars use up a lot of petrol while accelerating from a full stop.

Okay, so this car, which has 18 batteries in it's boot, uses battery power at acceleration, but uses these extra 18 batteries while at high speeds? In other words, it uses the battery at slower speeds, and it uses the extra batteries + petrol at higher speeds, when in a normal hybrid, it would only be using petrol.

Correct?

Pretty close.

In short, the answer is that the "250mpg" claim is misleading because they cheated on how they counted.

In current conventional hybrids, 100% of the energy is derived from putting fuel in the tank...the batteries are there to make the system run more efficiently.

In this "250mpg" car, you'll notice that they said ..."Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient... What this means is that it gets power from the grid, which is used to charge up their battery pack based on their home electric meter, instead of from burning petrol.

What this means that as they drive the car, the need to kick on the motor to recharge the battery pack is delayed (even more so with the bigger battery pack). Given a relatively short drive and no jackrabbit starts, they can theoretically get all the way home without the engine ever kicking on.

So while they're saving $$$ on gasoline, they've not bothered to mention the $$$ that their home's electric bill went up by. Since the cost of electricity is generally higher per energy unit, its actually costing this chap more dollars per mile than a standard hybrid.

-hh

 

[-hh]

I'm going to need some help here from our engineering friends...

Poof!

I am here, Master. How may I please you? Shall it be LaPlace Transformations today?

How big would a Solar Panel need to be to recharge the cells of a totally electric car in, say, 6 hours while I'm at work and my car is sitting in the parking lot baking in the sun anyway?

The panels will need to be larger than your automobile, Master. Unless you wish that I move the Earth's orbit substantially closer to the sun.

Very roughly speaking, a 3ft x 5ft solar panel is rated at 185 Watts.
185 watt = 0.2480891 horsepower

Assuming that your drive to work is only 15 minutes and that your average power draw is 40 horsepower, this would mean that you use roughly "10HP-hour", so 6 hours of prime sunlight would mean that you need to collect around 2HP/hour, which would be just over eight (8) of these 3x5 panels. Call it nine for a 3x3 array, which would be 9ft x 15ft, even though it would probably have to be larger than this for a variety of reasons, such as efficiency losses, non-sunny days, etc.

Very roughly speaking, the rule of thumb for home-installed systems is around $8/watt, so that times 9*185W panels = $13.3K

How much would it cost to build a fold up unit like they sell for the iPod?

The storage capacity of an iPod battery is around 3.5 Watt-hours, Master.

And your wish is My Command.

I have thus created for you a company called "Solio" and they have produced an iPod Solar-powered Charger. Since you wondered how much such a folding unit would cost, the answer is that they are selling it to anyone for just under $80...although the Apple Store wishes to receive $99.95

The Solio's actual solar output is only around 1 watt, but it has an internal battery that helps you bank power to recharge an iPod, etc. Actual recharge times are a bit ambiguous.

I will await your next command in my GeNIE bottle

Poof!

I travel around 60 miles a day commuting and on the job related travel each day in a '97 Honda Civic that gets 30-33 MPG. 50% of it is in stop and go traffic. That works out to around $1300 a year in gas at todays prices where I live. (I paid $2.42 yesterday and today the same station was $2.52)

The Toyota Prius MSRP is $22K and some change with tax, title, blah blah blah... They get what, 45 MPG. That's only a 50% increase in mileage, so I would save $400 a year. It wouldtake many years to pay for itself in gas savings. Even from the enviromental aspect IMO it's still not worth it yet.

The catch with hybrids is that the battery packs don't last forever. A couple of years ago, Toyota mentioned their estimated lifecycle cost to replace theirs, amortized out as a "dollars per mile" cost - - - it was 3 cents per mile.

Now here's a mathmatics exercise: take your MPG and convert it to miles/dollar, then invert it to get dollars/mile. I'm going to assume $2.50/gallon:

31mi/$2.50 = 12.4 miles/$1.00 ---> $1.00/12.4 miles ---> 8.06 cents/mile.


Same for the Prius, at 45mpg:

45/$2.50 = 18mi/$1.00 --> 5.55 cents/mile

Plus the 3 cents per mile for the eventual battery pack replacement, equals 8.55 cents per mile....hmm! Its more expensive per mile than the VW.

Converting the Prius back to an mpg: 29.2 mpg

FWIW, at $3/gallon, the numbers work out to:

Your Honda: 9.68 cents/mile
Toy Prius: 9.67 cents/mile ...same ~31mpg as you're currently getting

Of course, the way around this is to sell the hybrid before the battery pack needs to be replaced. Until people start to catch on to this "gotcha", resale values will probably be good enough such that you'll make out okay.

And while I'm mentioning all of this, in mid-2006, the USA is scheduled to transition to ultra-low sulpher diesel, which has been the technology barrier to broader offerings of diesel vehicles in the US marketplace (FYI, roughly half the automobiles sold in Europe in 2004 were diesels)...they should start showing up in force in the 2007 model year here in the USA.

Total electric...I would think about it.

You should have picked up one of the ones offered by GM a few years ago, although they were a marketplace failure for the two basic reasons why I personally wouldn't buy one:

a) They lack a quick recharge capability for extended range.
b) Cost per mile with current electrical generation is much higher than gas or diesel

Overall, this is why the current hybrids are relatively popular.

Also, take into consideration that to get more range out of the batteries you will be increasing the weight of the car with current battery technology.

Yup...which is an interesting "violation of the laws of physics" in regards to this 250mpg guy. Its YA clue that he was cheating in his energy accounting budget (je wasn't counting his grid power costs in his "mpg").


-hh

 

[mpw]

...I pay $1.29 for a gallon of milk.

OK. OT here, but where do you find milk for that price? I pay $2.79 anywhere I go.

Back on topic....don't forget that Illiniois has the highest gas tax: $.30 per gallon!!!

$3.71 here!

 

[Cheese]

Check out... www.theaircar.com! "less than a penny per mile!". We need more turbo diesels... are ya listening big 3/Nissan/BMW? Where have all the diesels gone? I had a VW TDI car and it got 50+mpg on the highway... REALLY! Where have all the diesels gone? (oops, I already said that...)

 

[mpw]

Check out... www.theaircar.com! "less than a penny per mile!". We need more turbo diesels... are ya listening big 3/Nissan/BMW? Where have all the diesels gone? I had a VW TDI car and it got 50+mpg on the highway... REALLY! Where have all the diesels gone? (oops, I already said that...)

You can hardly move for diesel offerings in Europe.

 

[dops7107]

Dubya infuriates me when he says, "We must lower our dependence on foreign oil." Why? Because he should be saying, "We must lower on dependence on oil." But, again, you'll never hear an oil man say such a thing.

Hell yeah. I wrote to my MP (Member of Parliament - representative of local constituents here in UK) regarding our dependence on oil (it was triggered by reading some particularly depressing stuff about peak oil). I was quite impressed by the reply - in the sense that there do seem to be people thinking about it - but the gist of the answer was that "we're okay for the next 30 years so we won't worry about it too much". What the politicians seem to ignore is that there are billions of almost irreplaceable uses for oil that extend beyond energy use and transport that make life comfortable as it is now.

PS If you want to read an idiot's opinion on environmental concern, check out this post on alt.radio.digital. Selfish pr*ck.

 

[Cheese]

www.theaircar.com