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250 MPG
- Thread starter Les Kern
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I live 8 blocks west of Wrigley Field in Chicago and a gallon of milk at the Jewel down the street is $3.99 for fat free skim. I buy the same thing at Whole Foods for $2.69 or Walgreen's for $2.49. No clue why Jewel is so high.
As for gas prices, I'm just glad I can take the CTA (bus/el) wherever I need to go for $75/month unlimited use. I only drive a couple times a week for short trips. Gas was $3.09 yesterday for the cheap stuff.
As for gas prices, I'm just glad I can take the CTA (bus/el) wherever I need to go for $75/month unlimited use. I only drive a couple times a week for short trips. Gas was $3.09 yesterday for the cheap stuff.
mpw said:
*offtopic*
You can get great milk, and other products, from private farmers....
We have some friends that live on a little farm out in the country...
which means half-price free-range chicken eggs.
Their hens lay more eggs their family of 6 can eat, so... we end up eating a lot of their eggs. Anyway, I thought most europeans drank UHT milk.
*offtopic*
Stock Prius capable of 100+ mpg.
If you drive in the right conditions (average 35 mph, no hills,) it is possible to achieve 110 miles per gallon in a STOCK Toyota Prius: linky. I have a Prius, and was averaging 47 mpg over my first year of ownership. After one month of trying the 'Pluse and Glide' technique used by the guys in the linked story, I'm averaging 56 mpg. One of the guys in the story regularly averages 65 mpg on his normal commute. No extra batteries, no plugging in.
Here are a couple of tips that can increase gas mileage in any car:
1. Change the oil at least at the recommended interval for your car. (Most cars it is actually 6 months/7500 miles nowadays.) And use the lightest weight oil you can. (If you live where it NEVER freezes, go for 0W20.)
2. Keep your tire pressure up. Higher tire pressures mean less rolling resistance, meaning better gas mileage. Obviously don't exceed what the tires are rated for, but as close as you can get will help. (But note that this does make for a rougher ride if you keep them up all the way.)
3. Use A/C on the freeway rather than rolling your windows down. Above about 50 mph, you're losing more to air resistance from having your windows down than you would lose due to engine drag from the A/C system. (Although 'pulsing' your A/C helps as well, turn it on for one minute, off for three, on for one, off for three. Or whatever you find comfortable.)
4. Finally, it seems a little obvious, but don't drive as much! If you're driving to the 7-11 that's only three blocks away, you're wasting gas. Walk it. (Heck, I knew someone who would drive the 1/4 mile to the gym! If that wasn't the ultimate in laziness, I don't know what is.) Combine errands so you don't come home and leave again repeatedly in one day. Map out your driving so you hit everything you need to do with as little 'back and forth' as possible. Take the bus, ride a bike, or take commuter trains, if available.
If you drive in the right conditions (average 35 mph, no hills,) it is possible to achieve 110 miles per gallon in a STOCK Toyota Prius: linky. I have a Prius, and was averaging 47 mpg over my first year of ownership. After one month of trying the 'Pluse and Glide' technique used by the guys in the linked story, I'm averaging 56 mpg. One of the guys in the story regularly averages 65 mpg on his normal commute. No extra batteries, no plugging in.
Here are a couple of tips that can increase gas mileage in any car:
1. Change the oil at least at the recommended interval for your car. (Most cars it is actually 6 months/7500 miles nowadays.) And use the lightest weight oil you can. (If you live where it NEVER freezes, go for 0W20.)
2. Keep your tire pressure up. Higher tire pressures mean less rolling resistance, meaning better gas mileage. Obviously don't exceed what the tires are rated for, but as close as you can get will help. (But note that this does make for a rougher ride if you keep them up all the way.)
3. Use A/C on the freeway rather than rolling your windows down. Above about 50 mph, you're losing more to air resistance from having your windows down than you would lose due to engine drag from the A/C system. (Although 'pulsing' your A/C helps as well, turn it on for one minute, off for three, on for one, off for three. Or whatever you find comfortable.)
4. Finally, it seems a little obvious, but don't drive as much! If you're driving to the 7-11 that's only three blocks away, you're wasting gas. Walk it. (Heck, I knew someone who would drive the 1/4 mile to the gym! If that wasn't the ultimate in laziness, I don't know what is.) Combine errands so you don't come home and leave again repeatedly in one day. Map out your driving so you hit everything you need to do with as little 'back and forth' as possible. Take the bus, ride a bike, or take commuter trains, if available.
ehurtley said:
Ugh. My dad has a 1990 Saturn SL. He does that same pulse and glide technique, and gets 42 mpg... he has an obsession with boosting his gas mileage.
I've seen the car
I've seen the car around town (live right next to Corte Madera). Makes me want to purchase a Prius and have him install the batteries!
I've seen the car around town (live right next to Corte Madera). Makes me want to purchase a Prius and have him install the batteries!
VW Beetle capable of 84 mpg
Back in 1974, VW had a television advertisement where they showed a stripped down Beetle that they took out and got 84mpg with.
They ended the ad with the tag line of "An HONEST 25mpg".
In any event, for all instances of where there's mpg claims from a hybrid, where the battery pack doesn't end up with the same amount of stored power that it started with, the mpg claim is false and misleading.
This is simple physics, folks: if you choose to only count one of the two energy sources that you're consuming, it is easy to make the numbers "look good".
Lowering Oil viscocity is known to effect a change, but one that's mostly only of concern to manufacturers who are trying to meet their CAFE mandates...only around 0.3mpg or so. Tire pressure is the significantly more important one here...around +1 to +2mpg IIRC, depending on how pitiful you are in checking/maintaining normal tire pressure.
Better still is to keep the windows rolled up and A/C off...just sweat. +1 to +2 mpg
True, but that affects total fuel consumption, not efficiency...although you are correct to combine errands as an efficiency measure.
Other factors include:
- obey the speed limit. Cutting it from 80mph to 65mph is usually good for around +3mpg.
- increase your driving situational awareness so as anticipate your velocity needs and adjust accordingly to conserve momentum - - be willing to "coast" over the top of the hill, etc. +2mpg
- stay out of the throttle...keep the rpm's down and get up into higher gears as soon as resonably possible +1mpg
- don't idle the vehicle. If you're idling for more than 60 seconds, you had either be stopped at a stoplight, or actively chipping ice off the windows. Letting the car "warm up" in the winter for 10 minutes is a waste, and leaving it idling when you're dropping off Recycling is an embarassment. +0.5mpg
- make your vehicle lighter. Those golf clubs in your trunk should be left at home except for the trip to the course...every pound you remove from the vehicle will make a difference, so if you're really good looking, dare to drive naked ;-) +0.5mpg
Longer term:
- buy only the vehicle that you need, with the smaller engine option
- manual transmissions are still generally more efficient than automatics
- avoid Off-Road brush guards & similar stuff that trashes your aerodynamics
-hh
ehurtley said:
Back in 1974, VW had a television advertisement where they showed a stripped down Beetle that they took out and got 84mpg with.
They ended the ad with the tag line of "An HONEST 25mpg".
In any event, for all instances of where there's mpg claims from a hybrid, where the battery pack doesn't end up with the same amount of stored power that it started with, the mpg claim is false and misleading.
This is simple physics, folks: if you choose to only count one of the two energy sources that you're consuming, it is easy to make the numbers "look good".
Lowering Oil viscocity is known to effect a change, but one that's mostly only of concern to manufacturers who are trying to meet their CAFE mandates...only around 0.3mpg or so. Tire pressure is the significantly more important one here...around +1 to +2mpg IIRC, depending on how pitiful you are in checking/maintaining normal tire pressure.
Better still is to keep the windows rolled up and A/C off...just sweat. +1 to +2 mpg
True, but that affects total fuel consumption, not efficiency...although you are correct to combine errands as an efficiency measure.
Other factors include:
- obey the speed limit. Cutting it from 80mph to 65mph is usually good for around +3mpg.
- increase your driving situational awareness so as anticipate your velocity needs and adjust accordingly to conserve momentum - - be willing to "coast" over the top of the hill, etc. +2mpg
- stay out of the throttle...keep the rpm's down and get up into higher gears as soon as resonably possible +1mpg
- don't idle the vehicle. If you're idling for more than 60 seconds, you had either be stopped at a stoplight, or actively chipping ice off the windows. Letting the car "warm up" in the winter for 10 minutes is a waste, and leaving it idling when you're dropping off Recycling is an embarassment. +0.5mpg
- make your vehicle lighter. Those golf clubs in your trunk should be left at home except for the trip to the course...every pound you remove from the vehicle will make a difference, so if you're really good looking, dare to drive naked ;-) +0.5mpg
Longer term:
- buy only the vehicle that you need, with the smaller engine option
- manual transmissions are still generally more efficient than automatics
- avoid Off-Road brush guards & similar stuff that trashes your aerodynamics
-hh
ham_man said:My father works for an energy company, and almost all of their energy (90%+) comes from coal...
Doesn't it take more energy to extract hydrogen than it produces?
Yeah, no process is 100% efficient. It would be the same to say doesn't it take more energy to charge a battery than it actually stores? Yes.
-hh said:
Very true. The thing about most current hybrids is that their batteries are really quite small. The MPG difference between a full battery and an empty battery at the end of a tank of gas is miniscule. For example, a Prius will a fully charged battery can only go about 2-2.5 miles on battery power alone until the battery is 'drained'. That 2-2.5 miles, added to the 400-500 of a full tank in 'normal' driving, is only a 0.5% 'increase' in mileage. So the EPA combined estimate of 55mpg just became 55.275mpg (or dropped to 54.625, if you assume the EPA ran the battery dry instead of left it the same.) Not enough to matter. In the end, the Prius recharges its battery either through recapturing energy that would have been lost to heat during braking, or by directly generating it from the gas engine. The estimates *DO* take the battery into consideration, simply because the energy to recharge the battery comes from the gas engine anyway. (For example, if I drive my Prius 2.5 miles on battery alone, then stop and hold down the brake and accelerator to force it to recharge the battery while at a stand-still, I will use about the same amount of gas as if I had just used the gas engine to drive that same 2.5 miles.)
This is where the '250mpg' claims comes into play. They get that high by using an outside source of power to recharge their batteries, and they have much larger batteries, where a different SOC (State of Charge) can make a noticeable difference. If, instead of 2.5 miles, you can go 50 miles, that 0.5% difference jumps to a 10% difference. And when you add in the factor of using the outside energy to recharge over and over, they can claim '250 mpg', which is, indeed, misleading. (heh, ironically, it ends up to one-mile-per-tablespoon. That would be funny to see on a window sticker.)
Now, if I was to make this modification to my Prius, I could reasonably claim such 'free' energy, as 100% of my house electricity comes from clean, renewable sources. (I pay extra on my electricity bill for the pleasure.) But, my daily drive is not conducive to this modification. I drive between 50 and 100 miles a day, in all sorts of traffic, so I wouldn't be able to keep my drive in the 30-50 mile, 35-mph-max area that this mod allows gas-free. So while this mod would improve my mileage a little, it wouldn't be as significant as '250 mpg'.
P.S. Good list of extra ways to save gas.
-hh said:
I couldn't let this go. This is a powerful urban myth that is often passed around as fact. It is a complete and total lie that hybrid car owners need to factor in the cost of replacing batteries. Batteries from all hybrid car makers are designed for the useful life of the car. In tests, Toyota has found that cars run for 150,000 miles still show no signs of degredation in the batteries. link
Also regarding disposal of batterys that a number of people mentioned:
link
Also in reference to what someone said a few posts back about electric cars:
This is another popular urban myth. To draw a comparison us mac lovers will understand, its a bit like saying that Apple's poor handwriting recognition is the reason the Newton failed (for those who don't know earkly models of the newton had bad handwriting recognition, and even though later models had handwriting recognition unrivaled by modern palmtops, people never got past the poor image of those early newtons).
Early electric cars were everything that is summed up in that quote. They didn't sell, and what is worse, they gave electric vehicles a very bad image. With modern technology we have electric car prototypes that overcome all of these problems. You can get 80% charge in about the time it takes to refuel a hummer. You can drive 400 miles before needing to recharge. And you can go 0-to-60 in times comparable to your typical muscle car. But electric cars have an image problem, so they are not put into manufacture.
Thought you guys would want to see this too: link
A solar assisted hybrid.
What I would really like to see in the short term is biodiesel/electric hybrid cars on the market.
O and for all you hydrogen fanboys, give it up, its a total right-wing sham.
LethalWolfe said:
I don't know about the ones used by the modders, but the stock Prius batteries are NiMH, which are very environmentally friendly. They are 100% recyclable. (In fact, Toyota offers a $200 bounty to dealerships that turn in a used Prius battery pack for recycling to encourage dealerships to recycle when replacing a dead battery pack.)
Lead-Acid aren't the most environmentally friendly, but they don't make good battery packs for this use, either. NiCad are really bad, but they also are being phased out. NiMH are very environmentally friendly, as they are 100% recyclable. Lithium Ion are also environmentally friendly, but are expensive.
Oh, and Toyota had a pamphlet describing the environmental factors involved in production, use, and disposal of the Prius. It showed that the Prius does, indeed, use more resources to build than a conventional car, but that by 100,000 km (about 62,000 mi,) it has more than made up for it. (And that's if you recycle it at 100k km. If you drive it for 200,000 miles (about 320k km,) like some have done, you're way ahead of the curve.)
Aha, found the pamphlet, and have posted a copy on my website: hurtley.org/pgr_e.pdf
EDIT: Lemon beat me to it, and had the number right. I corrected my 'bounty' number.
you know the Prius says it gets 55/65 MPG, and, in the real world, it gets 45 MPG, so infact if you want a car that make the ice caps and the ozone layer smile at you, but a voltswagen Lupo diesel, that gets 75MPG also, here in the real world (away from america) we have been paying approxx. $6.50 for years, because of fuel tax and other reasons. And because our oil is from our own oil fields ( the north sea), we don't have to wage wars to fuel our cars.
{sits back and prepares for flaming}
Jesus
{sits back and prepares for flaming}
Jesus
Jesus said:you know the Prius says it gets 55/65 MPG, and, in the real world, it gets 45 MPG, so infact if you want a car that make the ice caps and the ozone layer smile at you, but a voltswagen Lupo diesel, that gets 75MPG also, here in the real world (away from america) we have been paying approxx. $6.50 for years, because of fuel tax and other reasons. And because our oil is from our own oil fields ( the north sea), we don't have to wage wars to fuel our cars.
{sits back and prepares for flaming}
Jesus
Hey, if you know how to drive the Prius right, it can get 60/51. (Those are the real EPA numbers, not 55/65.) But, yeah, if our gas was over $5.00 a gallon for any appreciable amount of time, you can bet cars such as the Lupo would make it to our country real fast.
For clarification: The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is the agency that measures the fuel efficiency of cars, and is where these numbers come from. They have a really goofy way of measuring them that makes most cars come out higher than real life driving gets. It's just that when that number is 15 for a pickup, and you only get 12, it's not that big a deal. But when that number is 60, and you only get 48, it's a big deal. (That's the same percentage.) The EPA's numbers on the Prius are 60 miles per gallon in 'city' driving, and 51 miles per gallon in 'highway' driving. The big thing is that their highway driving is more like suburban or rural highway, not the big interstate highways. Yet I have always gotten about 50 miles per gallon driving on the interstate. And now that I know how to drive the car better, I can reliably get 60+ miles per gallon in the 'city'.
rjphoto said:
Solar panals are ~11-22% efficient. You'd need a huge array to power the car. As in, one seater car with 6 foot array by 2.5 foot array with no luggage room or anything. Just one person at ~45mph.
Our schools solar-powered car didn't end up happening... but I learned a lot.
All the farms here market and sell their milk under a single brand and the retailers have to charge a set minimum price (from which they make 5%). You can't import milk legally unless it's flavoured.mac_head101 said:*offtopic*
You can get great milk, and other products, from private farmers....
...Anyway, I thought most europeans drank UHT milk.
*offtopic*
UHT? Never have never will. It's certainly not the norm here or the UK...but you never know with the French etc.
***Back on topic***
If governments really wanted to solve the fuel consumption problem they could simply by legislating for less wasteful car designs. I can't see it being that hard to tax cars like a 5litre sports car into virtual nonexistence for road use, and why not they simply aren't needed.
mpw said:
I've often wondered about this. What would be the cost to a government if it cost £1000 to tax a car with a bigger engine than say 3 litres? Can you imagine what would happen? I just wonder how many votes would be lost by introducing such a plan.
The problem with politics at the moment is that no one is prepared to make the big changes. Everything is to do with detail-tinkering. Air travel should be taxed like crazy - I went to Edinburgh for a wedding this weekend, and it was of course cheaper to fly than take a train. Many friends go abroad 4 times a year. This isn't sustainable, but when asked directly, Blair said he "the political reality is that no one is going to vote for a reduced standard of living".
Oh dear. We're not customers, Mr Blair. Do some leading.
dops7107 said:
Jersey's Vehicle Registration Tax rates as at 01/01/05
Vehicles; Up to 125 cc £30
126 to 500 cc £60
501 to 1000 cc £125
1001 to 1400 cc £375
1401 to 1800 cc £625
1801 to 2000 cc £940
2001 to 2500 cc £1,250
2501 to 3000 cc £1,875
3001 to 3500 cc £2,500
Over 3500 cc £3,125
This tax was introduced about two years ago and so far it's cost no votes but around 13 franchised dealers have gone bust. Whether the two are related however is doubtful.
It makes no difference whether your vehicle is petrol/diesel/hybrid or motorcycle/suv/bus/tractor you pay by engine capacity.
The guy who introduced the tax is, I think, up for re-election in November but he's also the guy who has just introduced sales tax at ~10% when we've never had sales tax before so there are plenty of people who'll not vote for him regardless of this insult/tax.
mpw said:
Jeepers. I had no idea Jersey taxed vehicles like that. Do you have cheaper fuel? And a 10% sales tax is obviously less than here, but a lot more than 0%...
So the question is, then, what effect did the policy have, other than making a few dealers go bust? So people bought small engined cars and/or switched to public transport presumably. Is the policy deemed a success? My car would cost £375 to tax! Crikes.
I suppose to be fair, here in the UK we basically are taxed by engine size, since the more fuel you use the more tax you pay. It doesn't actually seem to affect people's purchase decisions that's all; it hasn't reached punitive levels yet.
Solar Question
"How big would a Solar Panel need to be to recharge the cells of a totally electric car in, say, 6 hours while I'm at work and my car is sitting in the parking lot baking in the sun anyway? How much would it cost to build a fold up unit like they sell for the iPod?"
-- Solar is around $3.00+ a Watt. Electric cars run off 12V batts. wired in series for 96V (usually, could be higher). A *rough* guess would be you would need a huge solar array (over 2,000Watts), plus a plethera of other gear -were talking a lot of space- For example, my 120Watt solar panel is approx 2 1/2' X 3 1/2'- so a 2,000Watt array would be approx. 145 Sq. Ft. just for solar.. I'm a huge fan of Alt. fuels, but solar dosen't have the efficiency yet to support electric cars. Now Fuel Cells have a better chance of filling this void..
"How big would a Solar Panel need to be to recharge the cells of a totally electric car in, say, 6 hours while I'm at work and my car is sitting in the parking lot baking in the sun anyway? How much would it cost to build a fold up unit like they sell for the iPod?"
-- Solar is around $3.00+ a Watt. Electric cars run off 12V batts. wired in series for 96V (usually, could be higher). A *rough* guess would be you would need a huge solar array (over 2,000Watts), plus a plethera of other gear -were talking a lot of space- For example, my 120Watt solar panel is approx 2 1/2' X 3 1/2'- so a 2,000Watt array would be approx. 145 Sq. Ft. just for solar.. I'm a huge fan of Alt. fuels, but solar dosen't have the efficiency yet to support electric cars. Now Fuel Cells have a better chance of filling this void..
Ah this thread is entertaining!
I love the guy who doesn't quite understand the various complications with hydrogenpower... especially the fact that it is not an energy source (just like anything that takes more energy to acquire than that which is extracted from its use)
sigh....
dieoff.org
I can't wait.
I love the guy who doesn't quite understand the various complications with hydrogenpower... especially the fact that it is not an energy source (just like anything that takes more energy to acquire than that which is extracted from its use)
sigh....
dieoff.org
I can't wait.