They're just trying to stop us from being able to watch hi-def content on the iMac through a blu-ray player so that they can sell it on iTunes instead. Not on.
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27" iMac Video Input With Xbox 360?
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They're just trying to stop us from being able to watch hi-def content on the iMac through a blu-ray player so that they can sell it on iTunes instead. Not on.
Thanks for your efforts RealEvil! Disappointing to see the end result but there is hope in the near future.
Thanks - its been really good fun but depressing inevitable that it wasn't going to work quite right. As soon as the 360 would only go up to 1280*720 alarms bells were ringing and I was hoping that somehow a firmware fix would solve it... ah well.
I really do blame Apple for making products which dont 'fit' with everything else in your life. I would have paid £150 for a HDMI port on the iMac.
And I have also learned that its worth paying for good service. FutureShop.co.uk have been amazing. And Atlona, despite having a firmware issue, have been amazingly open and honest. A really nice Product Manager there has been so gracious and helpful. I will definitely buy the AT-HDP620 once its available.
I really do blame Apple for making products which dont 'fit' with everything else in your life. I would have paid £150 for a HDMI port on the iMac.
And I have also learned that its worth paying for good service. FutureShop.co.uk have been amazing. And Atlona, despite having a firmware issue, have been amazingly open and honest. A really nice Product Manager there has been so gracious and helpful. I will definitely buy the AT-HDP620 once its available.
You are right, I will pick for sure the Athlona adapter over the rest just because their transparency on this issue. As soon as it works obviously
im not sure how that translates into dollars... but if the imac came standard with an hdmi port, the value would be tremendously higher to me. That is money i would NEVER spend on their dumbed down "hd" content on itunes.
i also agree about atlona, they seem to have their head on straight as far as righting their wrongs. Funny thing is, if you look at the way apple handles their screen issues on the imac vs atlonas dp200 scaling issues, they both seem to want to take care of their customers, but one actually does. If atlona just kept sending you more dp200s, that wouldnt solve the issue, nor would anyone else have any idea that something wasnt right.... which is pretty much what apple has been doing with all the people complaining about issues with their imacs.
I don't fully agree with you on that. I think that Apple is doing the same backoffice work but it is just that they don't make it as public. The reason is probably because they sell millions instead of hundreds of units.
I am pretty convinced that sooner or later all of the iMac owners will be satisfied.
I definitely think that Mini DisplayPort has been the single biggest pain in the ass decision Apple has made on behalf of their customers. It doesn't seem to be gaining any momentum in the rest of the industry who are seemingly quite content with DVI/HDMI for now.
It's making all users of the 27" iMac having to wait and pay for expensive adapters when it really should have been a simple plug-and-play operation.
Plus to actually use a Mac with a standard data projector at work I have to run out and buy a £20 adapter and remember to bring it with me when I need it when it really should just have had a DVI port the way they used to.
When the 27" iMac was launched and they advertised 'video-in' functionality it was a major contributor to my decision to upgrade from my previous 24" iMac. If I had known it was such a big issue to get a 360 or Blu-Ray player attached I probably wouldn't have jumped ship so quickly.
I really don't know what Apple was thinking when they decided to implement mini DisplayPort and this thread is proof of how much of an inconvenience it is.
It's making all users of the 27" iMac having to wait and pay for expensive adapters when it really should have been a simple plug-and-play operation.
Plus to actually use a Mac with a standard data projector at work I have to run out and buy a £20 adapter and remember to bring it with me when I need it when it really should just have had a DVI port the way they used to.
When the 27" iMac was launched and they advertised 'video-in' functionality it was a major contributor to my decision to upgrade from my previous 24" iMac. If I had known it was such a big issue to get a 360 or Blu-Ray player attached I probably wouldn't have jumped ship so quickly.
I really don't know what Apple was thinking when they decided to implement mini DisplayPort and this thread is proof of how much of an inconvenience it is.
I read some news about Dell coming with a 27" display and would have the same panel as the Apple has.
http://vr-zone.com/articles/dell-ultrasharp-u2711-release-soon-/8173.html
Any possibility that the EDID information from the Dell van be used to work with the iMac 27??? Because that would solve something
RealEvil, are you still in contact with Atlona? Maybe you can drop something to them about this screen and the usage of another EDID file?
http://vr-zone.com/articles/dell-ultrasharp-u2711-release-soon-/8173.html
Any possibility that the EDID information from the Dell van be used to work with the iMac 27??? Because that would solve something
RealEvil, are you still in contact with Atlona? Maybe you can drop something to them about this screen and the usage of another EDID file?
I heard that Apple made the iMac incompatible with Xbox because Apple is making its own gaming console.......... ppfftt!
I was justifying buy the 27in because it had the video in, but what is the point if the only video in is from another apple device?!?!?!?!
I was justifying buy the 27in because it had the video in, but what is the point if the only video in is from another apple device?!?!?!?!
doesnt seem like it to me, they still havent acknowledged any sort of fault or issues with the imac. atlona has already come out and said the dp200, in its current form will not work at 1080P with the imac, then again, their website did say from the get go that a scaler would be required.
Show me any kind of announcement, or even email with apple that shows them even hinting that they know something is wrong with the imacs and are working on a solution.
I read some news about Dell coming with a 27" display and would have the same panel as the Apple has.
http://vr-zone.com/articles/dell-ultrasharp-u2711-release-soon-/8173.html
Any possibility that the EDID information from the Dell van be used to work with the iMac 27??? Because that would solve something
RealEvil, are you still in contact with Atlona? Maybe you can drop something to them about this screen and the usage of another EDID file?
..... this could be a game changer. The main reason i wanted to get the imac was because of the screen being pretty much one of a kind for its price range... now if dell has the same exact panel, i could build an i7 system, heck, maybe even an i9, for cheaper then the imac and squash it in performance and price assuming the dell monitor will be decently priced.
If Apple worked with Microsoft on their next console, that would be pretty cool. I.E. Apple design and OS, with Microsoft gaming studios, Live, etc. But the chances of that are beyond slim - neither would like to admit the cooperation of the other would be to their benefit.
Apple wouldn't be able to compete with Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft in the console gaming market on their own.
Would be cool though, I can just picture a slim metallic design with similar aluminium wireless controllers, iPod/Phone connectivity, Mini Display Port standard, and 'Designed By Microsoft Studios and Apple Corporation' in discreet writing under a new logo and name (iConsole, iGame, iBox?).
Hell, they could take on Blu-Ray with a new format if they worked together on a gaming/multimedia device. Start with mainly downloadable content to make sure it would be cheap for the film studios to back the new format, then slowly start releasing discs...
Could make some serious money this way. Plus they could go half/half on the loss they would be selling the console at, thus saving both of them money. Would attract hell loads of free publicity, probably and immense fanbase, you can imagine the support it would generate... In a perfect world this would definitely happen.
Competition isn't always best for the consumer is it?
Apple wouldn't be able to compete with Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft in the console gaming market on their own.
Would be cool though, I can just picture a slim metallic design with similar aluminium wireless controllers, iPod/Phone connectivity, Mini Display Port standard
, and 'Designed By Microsoft Studios and Apple Corporation' in discreet writing under a new logo and name (iConsole, iGame, iBox?).Hell, they could take on Blu-Ray with a new format if they worked together on a gaming/multimedia device. Start with mainly downloadable content to make sure it would be cheap for the film studios to back the new format, then slowly start releasing discs...
Could make some serious money this way. Plus they could go half/half on the loss they would be selling the console at, thus saving both of them money. Would attract hell loads of free publicity, probably and immense fanbase, you can imagine the support it would generate... In a perfect world this would definitely happen.
Competition isn't always best for the consumer is it?
If Apple worked with Microsoft on their next console, that would be pretty cool. I.E. Apple design and OS, with Microsoft gaming studios, Live, etc. But the chances of that are beyond slim - neither would like to admit the cooperation of the other would be to their benefit.
Apple wouldn't be able to compete with Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft in the console gaming market on their own.
Would be cool though, I can just picture a slim metallic design with similar aluminium wireless controllers, iPod/Phone connectivity, Mini Display Port standard
Hell, they could take on Blu-Ray with a new format if they worked together on a gaming/multimedia device. Start with mainly downloadable content to make sure it would be cheap for the film studios to back the new format, then slowly start releasing discs...
Could make some serious money this way. Plus they could go half/half on the loss they would be selling the console at, thus saving both of them money. Would attract hell loads of free publicity, probably and immense fanbase, you can imagine the support it would generate... In a perfect world this would definitely happen.
Competition isn't always best for the consumer is it?
I meant it as a joke, but they definately could make a system. They are really into marketing the ipod/iphone as a gaming device and it is doing very well in that regards, they have an amazing reputation for putting out cutting edge products.... so why not a console?
It just irks me that you can't hook up an xbox/ps3/blu-ray to the iMac. I can somewhat understand their point from the perspective that xbox has netflix and ps3 plays blu-rays and both of those will impact sales on the itunes store, but come on!!!!!!! They build a computer with a 27in screen and didn't think people would want to plug their console into it? When I saw this computer it was the first thing I thought of!
I won't get into it too much but it's not as easy as just putting a console together. Microsoft were already in the gaming industry before they released the XBox, and have loads of in house gaming studios. Sony releasing a console was a major surprise and they only managed to pull it off because they brought technology to the market at just the right time.
Apple is way, way too late to survive. You need numbers to survive in a console war because otherwise no one will make games for your system. How do you get numbers? Undersell the product. Basically Apple would have to invest billions, and lose money every time they sell the console for a small chance of generating profit in 10 odd years time. That doesn't sound like something they'd do to me.
It wouldn't work selling it for £1000 odd quid because they wouldn't sell a 10th of what the PS4 or Xbox 3 would sell, therefore they wouldn't get games released on it because the gaming companies wouldn't see a point when they'd have a big enough market on the other consoles.
They're doing quite well with the iPhone so they'll probably push their inadvertent gaming success and take on Nintendo's hand-held monopoly rather than run the risk of ruining their image in a future console war. If they teamed up with Nintendo, that would also be a good idea. But obviously it would hit both their bottom lines, so it's very doubtful.
If Apple worked with Microsoft on their next console, that would be pretty cool. I.E. Apple design and OS, with Microsoft gaming studios, Live, etc. But the chances of that are beyond slim - neither would like to admit the cooperation of the other would be to their benefit.
Apple wouldn't be able to compete with Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft in the console gaming market on their own.
Would be cool though, I can just picture a slim metallic design with similar aluminium wireless controllers, iPod/Phone connectivity, Mini Display Port standard
Hell, they could take on Blu-Ray with a new format if they worked together on a gaming/multimedia device. Start with mainly downloadable content to make sure it would be cheap for the film studios to back the new format, then slowly start releasing discs...
Could make some serious money this way. Plus they could go half/half on the loss they would be selling the console at, thus saving both of them money. Would attract hell loads of free publicity, probably and immense fanbase, you can imagine the support it would generate... In a perfect world this would definitely happen.
Competition isn't always best for the consumer is it?
They would call it the Imcxbox720, kinda of catchy don't you think ??
I would buy one.
I understand all of that, but gaming consoles have come and gone from various companies. Xbox 360 only managed to have the upperhand on PS3 because it was released first, nintendo was a small blip on the radar and made a huge comeback with the Wii.
I know that the companies undersell the consoles, but at the same time I would never say that Apple would never enter the console market. Imagine an iMac such as the 27in that could allow you to play console games. That would be absolutely incredible. The xbox and PS3 are already turning into PC's with the internet, facebook, and download features that are being implemented into the consoles' OS as it is. So while I do agree that it is a bit of a stretch to say that apple will enter the console market, at the same time I can't entirely squash the idea that it is a possibility. Hey, I can dream can't I?
They didn't intend the ipod to be a gaming device and look how that turned out.
hi and i would first of all like to say a massive thanks to realevil, dude you have answered so many questions by biting the bullet as they say and getting the nuts to got try this out at your expense!
Now a little back ground info as its my first post. i bought the imac 27" stupidly before looking into all this in real depth, i got it from pcworld uk. Who sat me down and assured me the adapter i had for HDMI>mdp would work, much to my later surprise. i rushed home with the gargantuan screen with a almighty smile on my face and as you all know it didn't work! so there i was i had this eye watering thing of beauty sat there, where my hdtv used to be hooked up to my MBP. Also to my dismay i managed to buy the last one for around 200 miles of me and i got the faulty video adapter one (flickering screen issue) so now i'm on my 2nd fresh new imac 27".
Back on track with things i was fuming because of the input thing and let it rest. But tonight (half 12) i stumble on this long thread with all the possibilities anyone could of thought of had been tried.
as i read threw i saw a flicker of hope that we could be soon all buying atlona-dp200 and having 1080i on our big all in one wonder machines.
anyway at that i got onto live chat to determine weather atlona are going to give us an idea of when i can order a adapter to the uk and for it to work.
please see below conversation with atlona rep.
enjoy
[Lenexpo] Hello How may I help you
[Visitor] hi im thinking of purchasing a atdp 200 for input with my imac
[Lenexpo] okay...whats your question
[Visitor] i was reading about them updating the firmware on the model so it can get the higher resolutions is this correct?
[Lenexpo] Yes we are
[Visitor] do you think i should hold on till i purchase the item to display 1080i xbox on the display then?, also do you have a ETA for this newer updated item, as i am not ordering it to find it never going to work.
[Lenexpo] You can purchase it, and we can upload the firm ware, right now they are on back order
[Lenexpo] anything else I can assist you with?
[Visitor] but say if i buy one now and get it can it be updated when you release the firmware? which do you have a date for please?
[Lenexpo] Let me ask my tech manager if we have a date
[Visitor] ok thank you
[Lenexpo] Note for iMac 27" users only: Even though our box is capable of pasing high resolutions up to 1920x1200, users of iMac 27" will only be able to get picture with resolutions up to 1280x720 (720P). The reason for it is that iMac 27" native resolutions are: 800x600, 1280x720 or 2560x1440 (since our box is limited to single link (1920x1200), and can't work with 2560x1440 it will take the next resolution down the list which is 720p. We are working on AT-DP400 which will allow dual link resolutions (such as 2560x1440) to pass though. For PS3 or Xbox users, you can use our converter without additional devices at only 720p resolution. Make sure to set 720p prior connecting it to the DP200.
[Lenexpo] The one that will support it will be ready in a couple of months
[Visitor] okay so a scaler and adapter combo will be realsed in a couple of months?
[Lenexpo] Yes the new one should have it to work with the xbox and see 1080i
[Visitor] thanks regards
[Lenexpo] No problem have a great day!
[Visitor] thanks its 12 at night here though ill have a good sleep thanks
just for your info!
Now a little back ground info as its my first post. i bought the imac 27" stupidly before looking into all this in real depth, i got it from pcworld uk. Who sat me down and assured me the adapter i had for HDMI>mdp would work, much to my later surprise. i rushed home with the gargantuan screen with a almighty smile on my face and as you all know it didn't work! so there i was i had this eye watering thing of beauty sat there, where my hdtv used to be hooked up to my MBP. Also to my dismay i managed to buy the last one for around 200 miles of me and i got the faulty video adapter one (flickering screen issue) so now i'm on my 2nd fresh new imac 27".
Back on track with things i was fuming because of the input thing and let it rest. But tonight (half 12) i stumble on this long thread with all the possibilities anyone could of thought of had been tried.
as i read threw i saw a flicker of hope that we could be soon all buying atlona-dp200 and having 1080i on our big all in one wonder machines.
anyway at that i got onto live chat to determine weather atlona are going to give us an idea of when i can order a adapter to the uk and for it to work.
please see below conversation with atlona rep.
enjoy
[Lenexpo] Hello How may I help you
[Visitor] hi im thinking of purchasing a atdp 200 for input with my imac
[Lenexpo] okay...whats your question
[Visitor] i was reading about them updating the firmware on the model so it can get the higher resolutions is this correct?
[Lenexpo] Yes we are
[Visitor] do you think i should hold on till i purchase the item to display 1080i xbox on the display then?, also do you have a ETA for this newer updated item, as i am not ordering it to find it never going to work.
[Lenexpo] You can purchase it, and we can upload the firm ware, right now they are on back order
[Lenexpo] anything else I can assist you with?
[Visitor] but say if i buy one now and get it can it be updated when you release the firmware? which do you have a date for please?
[Lenexpo] Let me ask my tech manager if we have a date
[Visitor] ok thank you
[Lenexpo] Note for iMac 27" users only: Even though our box is capable of pasing high resolutions up to 1920x1200, users of iMac 27" will only be able to get picture with resolutions up to 1280x720 (720P). The reason for it is that iMac 27" native resolutions are: 800x600, 1280x720 or 2560x1440 (since our box is limited to single link (1920x1200), and can't work with 2560x1440 it will take the next resolution down the list which is 720p. We are working on AT-DP400 which will allow dual link resolutions (such as 2560x1440) to pass though. For PS3 or Xbox users, you can use our converter without additional devices at only 720p resolution. Make sure to set 720p prior connecting it to the DP200.
[Lenexpo] The one that will support it will be ready in a couple of months
[Visitor] okay so a scaler and adapter combo will be realsed in a couple of months?
[Lenexpo] Yes the new one should have it to work with the xbox and see 1080i
[Visitor] thanks regards
[Lenexpo] No problem have a great day!
[Visitor] thanks its 12 at night here though ill have a good sleep thanks
just for your info!
Between the 360 and PS3 - in my opinion - the defining factor is XBox Live, not who released first. Microsoft were very clever because they fine-tuned it and worked out the bugs during the lifetime of the first XBox. Microsoft understood (because of their experience buying out the PC gaming market) that the future of gaming was through online multiplayer and social networking. XBox Live is basically FaceBook Plus. It has the potential to be as big a phenomenon as FaceBook in a few years time if they play it right.
That's the main reason why more people play the XBox than the PS3. Gamers know when a new game gets released (i.e. Modern Warfare), if you want to compete with the best and want the 'bragging rights' to show off to your friends (gamer points), and play with your friends, while you catch up with them you need the XBox, not the PS3 or Wii - or even the PC, clever Microsoft is transferring their PC market to the more lucrative console market because of superior multiplayer support with added social spice!
It's like FaceBook and MySpace. In my opinion MySpace had much greater potential and is a lot better. But people use FaceBook because that's where everybody is. Two identical games get released, XBox sells more because people know they can play with their friends on it. And FaceBook is pretty much set now for at least a decade, as is Live. They're both unstoppable because they have monopolised social networking in their own fields. Sony was too slow in the bandwagon, just like Apple was releasing a console.
Any way Apple already have released a 'console' - per say - like you describe. The Mac Mini is effectively a gaming device, only they don't have any games to put on there! Why? Because they didn't invest in gaming studios, AND they stupidly (though thankfully) invented boot-camp. What do you need to play games on the mac-mini, iMac, etc? Boot-camp and Windows!
Who owns that? Microsoft. That's why they were able to do well with the XBox, they just built a Mac Mini effectively, and ported all their PC games over. Apple can't compete because unlike Microsoft they don't have anybody making games for them anymore. They could have done it 10 odd years ago and probably be in Microsoft's place right now, but for whatever reason (probably choice, from what I hear about Apple and games) didn't think it was worth it or to the advantage of their 'image'.
Look at companies like Bungie. While Apple let them slip through their fingers Microsoft actively sought these gems out. Halo was going to be a Mac game, until Microsoft bought Bungie out when they had the idea of the 'PC Mini' (aka XBox) 5 odd years before Apple! Can you believe that, Halo was an OSX game!?
As for Nintendo being a blip in the radar. Well that's not really true. Nintendo's only time in second place was during the PS1 days, but even then they were making money and games Mac and PS1 users could only dream of. And let's not forget the GameBoy, which sold more than the PS1.
Basically it's too late for Apple. It's like Microsoft with 'Bing'. It won't happen no matter how many times they change the name.
Now as for a handheld gaming device... i.e. taking on Nintendo, now there's a possibility. But they have tough competition in Nintendo, that's for sure. The chances of Apple coming anywhere near close to the quantities of GameBoys sold every week is pretty much nonexistent right now and in the near future due to pricing. Nintendo will give Apple a good run for their money unless Apple really start putting some concerted effort into it.
P.s. sorry for high-jacking the thread guys.
Sacha
That's the main reason why more people play the XBox than the PS3. Gamers know when a new game gets released (i.e. Modern Warfare), if you want to compete with the best and want the 'bragging rights' to show off to your friends (gamer points), and play with your friends, while you catch up with them you need the XBox, not the PS3 or Wii - or even the PC, clever Microsoft is transferring their PC market to the more lucrative console market because of superior multiplayer support with added social spice!
It's like FaceBook and MySpace. In my opinion MySpace had much greater potential and is a lot better. But people use FaceBook because that's where everybody is. Two identical games get released, XBox sells more because people know they can play with their friends on it. And FaceBook is pretty much set now for at least a decade, as is Live. They're both unstoppable because they have monopolised social networking in their own fields. Sony was too slow in the bandwagon, just like Apple was releasing a console.
Any way Apple already have released a 'console' - per say - like you describe. The Mac Mini is effectively a gaming device, only they don't have any games to put on there! Why? Because they didn't invest in gaming studios, AND they stupidly (though thankfully) invented boot-camp. What do you need to play games on the mac-mini, iMac, etc? Boot-camp and Windows!
Who owns that? Microsoft. That's why they were able to do well with the XBox, they just built a Mac Mini effectively, and ported all their PC games over. Apple can't compete because unlike Microsoft they don't have anybody making games for them anymore. They could have done it 10 odd years ago and probably be in Microsoft's place right now, but for whatever reason (probably choice, from what I hear about Apple and games) didn't think it was worth it or to the advantage of their 'image'.
Look at companies like Bungie. While Apple let them slip through their fingers Microsoft actively sought these gems out. Halo was going to be a Mac game, until Microsoft bought Bungie out when they had the idea of the 'PC Mini' (aka XBox) 5 odd years before Apple! Can you believe that, Halo was an OSX game!?
As for Nintendo being a blip in the radar. Well that's not really true. Nintendo's only time in second place was during the PS1 days, but even then they were making money and games Mac and PS1 users could only dream of. And let's not forget the GameBoy, which sold more than the PS1.
Basically it's too late for Apple. It's like Microsoft with 'Bing'. It won't happen no matter how many times they change the name.
Now as for a handheld gaming device... i.e. taking on Nintendo, now there's a possibility. But they have tough competition in Nintendo, that's for sure. The chances of Apple coming anywhere near close to the quantities of GameBoys sold every week is pretty much nonexistent right now and in the near future due to pricing. Nintendo will give Apple a good run for their money unless Apple really start putting some concerted effort into it.
P.s. sorry for high-jacking the thread guys.
Sacha
You have some fine points there my friend! BTW this discussion pretty much sums up the main issue in this thread.... and that is that the xbox360, and the ps3 should be able to easily connect to the iMac if Apple has no intention of ever entering the console market.
hold on a second... did they say the new device will only support 1080i???? F that man, thats as good as 720p. i want 1080p.
well if for now atlona dp200 displays 720p surely for gaming that is efficient for a 27" screen? i only have a 1080i tv at the moment, so might just buy the atlona dp200 then all my troubles are sorted!
If you only have a 1080i screen perhaps its a plasma? If it is, it might be like my old Panasonic which was actually only a 720p screen - i.e. the resolution was 1280*720. Thats fine for TV and a XBOX input.
The iMac is a much higher resolution 2560*1440 which means that lower resolution inputs (including 720p) appear blocky - see my screenshots in this thread - as 1 pixel is being stretched to about 4.
The hope is the new Atlona device HDP620 can scale really well a 1920*1080 source up to 2560*1440. Some scalers suck so fingers crossed theirs is good.
I think the 1080i input being confirmed by Atlona is only because that was the question that was asked (and the 360 does output that resolution). I am sure it will accept 1080p too.
The iMac is a much higher resolution 2560*1440 which means that lower resolution inputs (including 720p) appear blocky - see my screenshots in this thread - as 1 pixel is being stretched to about 4.
The hope is the new Atlona device HDP620 can scale really well a 1920*1080 source up to 2560*1440. Some scalers suck so fingers crossed theirs is good.
I think the 1080i input being confirmed by Atlona is only because that was the question that was asked (and the 360 does output that resolution). I am sure it will accept 1080p too.
would be good if apogee actually gave us a product name and an idea of when this adapter will be out. there is a lot of money to be made for the company to release a working adapter that 1. works 2. scales up seamlessly and 3. looks good enough to sit by the beauty that is the imac 27" i eagerly await it as i got no dam tv now
pmslI am quite confident that there will be a working solution soon but I have one concern and I am hoping someone can clarify this. Even if we get a full working adapter running @ 1080p. The Dashboard may look fine but don't most of the games run at 720p anyway? Im assuming we will have the same results in gaming video quality that RealEvil found in his tests with Atona adapter @ 720p.
I am thinking out aloud here and hope I am mistaken on this...but I would appreciate a more informed opinion from other members if possible.
I am thinking out aloud here and hope I am mistaken on this...but I would appreciate a more informed opinion from other members if possible.