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Why? That G4 would render quicker than the dual Athlon XP box I was using at the time a lot of the time, depending on the scene. (Blender)

Couldn't afford a PowerMac and the laptop at the time, I was like 17, replaced the Athlon XP with a second hand MDD dual 867 a while later, and although a vacuum cleaner 24/7, now that was a proper workstation. Good times.
 
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G4 PowerBook? Seriously? You’ve just lost any credibility you might have had. And yes, I used to own a G4 PowerBook.
I think he's talking about build quality, not speed. For the most part they were reliable machines, at least relative to the PC competition.
 
I've been waiting many years now for a 32gb macbook pro. To hold me over until apple designs another pro laptop, I put together a $700 skylake system with 32gb ddr4 which I have been using for a year now. I don't even miss the macbook or osx. This is a nice little machine that is more capable than my macbook for 1/4th the price. Everything I do on this machine runs smoothly, nothing ever feels slow, and it can drive a 4k screen with less lag than my max 2015 macbook pro. Just build a system that meets your needs and don't worry about what apple is doing. Apple doesn't make desktop replacement laptops anymore and I think they never will again.
 
This doesn't make sense to me at all.

You're not buying a top end 15" laptop to doddle around on FaceBook, you're using it to do real work. Crunching numbers while not on power isn't going to lead to everlasting battery life, that's why they're called mobile workstations - They're a compromise between a proper workstation and a laptop. Normal laptop not being powerful enough to do what you want to do. As with all compromises, the compromise from having performance is a reliance on power...

So why does the 15" MBP exist at all?

I mean, I could understand if this was a 15" plain 'ol MacBook, but we're talking an extra grand here for extra features that don't make sense for someone who wants a mobile workstation. Is it for "Kind of Pro but not really"? If it is, why the hell is it more expensive than fully fledged proper workstations? We're not talking dodgy Chinese back end cheap stuff either, we're talking fully enterprise backed solutions with plethora of support options available...

Everything soldered to the board is ******** in the workstation space as well, you don't want to ditch the entire machine just because a graphics card burns out, you get on the phone and tell the support company to get their arses to the office NOW and fix it, as downtime is wasted money.

I guess i'm reminiscing of the days when my G4 PowerBook was actually up there with the best of them for the price.

Reality is the that's likely to be the case. As by Apple's own admission only 15% of Mac are utilised professionally, like myself if you need more than Apple offers you need to look elsewhere, as Apple is simply not going introduce Portable Workstations or gaming solutions. Apple will continue to offer sleek & stylish packages that work best for average consumers, who are willing pay more for Apple's design language.

"Pro" is simply marketing with many professionals using lesser hardware than Apple offers, or greater as required. In many respects hardware is blurring with the advancements in technology with even moderately sized computers being relatively powerful, equally as stated if you need a Quad Core, 32/64 Gb of Ram, SSD's in RAID and a third for storage with a powerful dGPU, Apple's not the place to look or hope it will ever materialise...

Q-6
 
I think he's talking about build quality, not speed. For the most part they were reliable machines, at least relative to the PC competition.

I'm talking about raw power. Of course, by the time the G5 came out it was all over as far as that aspect of things as far as the high-end was concerned. I actually had 2 separate logic board replacements under warranty with that PowerBook, I guess running it 24/7 in the Australian summer with the CPU at max was just too much...

Still not as bad as the Palomino cored Athlons though :confused: hwmon core temps of 100C more than once...
 
"Pro" is simply marketing with many professionals using lesser hardware than Apple offers, or greater as required. In many respects hardware is blurring with the advancements in technology with even moderately sized computers being relatively powerful, equally as stated if you need a Quad Core, 32/64 Gb of Ram, SSD's in RAID and a third for storage with a powerful dGPU, Apple's not the place to look or hope it will ever materialise...

I agree that Pro is just marketing. It really means "Enhanced". There can be professionals that get by with just the Macbook. There are professionals that get by with just $399 Dell desktops. But there are professionals that need 128GB of RAM, SLI NVIDIA Titans, 18-core CPUs and more. That does not mean all professionals need that hardware. So all of this complaining that "X is not Pro anymore" is ridiculous.

I do not see articles and sites complaining about the Surface Pro. That thing had horrible hardware when I used it.

Now what I would not argue is complaining about the use of the term Pro in the PS4 Pro. But again. Think of Pro in product names as just meaning "Enhanced". There is no "Professional" tag that would satisfy every single professional ever.
 
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I'm talking about raw power. Of course, by the time the G5 came out it was all over as far as that aspect of things as far as the high-end was concerned. I actually had 2 separate logic board replacements under warranty with that PowerBook, I guess running it 24/7 in the Australian summer with the CPU at max was just too much...

Still not as bad as the Palomino cored Athlons though :confused: hwmon core temps of 100C more than once...
Uhhhh. Then I'm afraid I have to agree with the other guy. The PBs did fine at certain tasks, but if you take the average of a lot of different things (which benchmarks attempt to approximate), the G4 was smoked by the competition. Only a small minority of people contend otherwise.

Don't get me wrong. I loved my G4 PBs. I owned every iteration other than the first. But speed demons they were not.
 
Uhhhh. Then I'm afraid I have to agree with the other guy. The PBs did fine at certain tasks, but if you take the average of a lot of different things (which benchmarks attempt to approximate), the G4 was smoked by the competition. Only a small minority of people contend otherwise.

Don't get me wrong. I loved my G4 PBs. I owned every iteration other than the first. But speed demons they were not.

I'm just going off my personal experience with the workloads I was dealing with on a daily basis.

PowerPC Macs still had their problems, my first PowerBook I ever owned was a second hand Titanium G4, I think the hinges lasted... 6 weeks?
 
I was so lucky that my first mac was a MacBook pro, the 2nd generation MacBook pro, the one with the reliable logic board!! For the first 2 years I had it, it spent more time being repaired than being used...The logic board failed a few times, the super-drive 3 times, RAM more than twice replaced, the hinges failed, the backlight failed, it was a total mess when I finally took a hammer to it...

That was despite all it's flaws, way way better than the 2014 retina MacBook pro I am typing this on...I would trade in a heart beat...this newer one, now almost 4 years old is a total turd, it beachballs and looses the usb mouse all the time, it cannot handle the screensaver built in, and yes it was replaced a number of times...So Apple do not make quality, unless turd is a standard!!!
 
I was so lucky that my first mac was a MacBook pro, the 2nd generation MacBook pro, the one with the reliable logic board!! For the first 2 years I had it, it spent more time being repaired than being used...The logic board failed a few times, the super-drive 3 times, RAM more than twice replaced, the hinges failed, the backlight failed, it was a total mess when I finally took a hammer to it...

That was despite all it's flaws, way way better than the 2014 retina MacBook pro I am typing this on...I would trade in a heart beat...this newer one, now almost 4 years old is a total turd, it beachballs and looses the usb mouse all the time, it cannot handle the screensaver built in, and yes it was replaced a number of times...So Apple do not make quality, unless turd is a standard!!!

PICNIC.
 
I'm just going off my personal experience with the workloads I was dealing with on a daily basis.

PowerPC Macs still had their problems, my first PowerBook I ever owned was a second hand Titanium G4, I think the hinges lasted... 6 weeks?
Yeah, those were notoriously bad. My TiBook 1Ghz was one of my favorite machines. It lasted quite a while, felt really refined, and had reasonable performance.

Back in those days, you really noticed speed improvements more than you do today. I went from a 550 to a 667 to the 1Ghz. Each time made me really, really happy.

By contrast, I have often struggled to see much day to day improvement in iterations with Intel. Obviously that's a little different if you're running things that utilize all your cores at 100%.
 
I agree that Pro is just marketing. It really means "Enhanced". There can be professionals that get by with just the Macbook. There are professionals that get by with just $399 Dell desktops. But there are professionals that need 128GB of RAM, SLI NVIDIA Titans, 18-core CPUs and more. That does not mean all professionals need that hardware. So all of this complaining that "X is not Pro anymore" is ridiculous.

I do not see articles and sites complaining about the Surface Pro. That thing had horrible hardware when I used it.

Now what I would not argue is complaining about the use of the term Pro in the PS4 Pro. But again. Think of Pro in product names as just meaning "Enhanced". There is no "Professional" tag that would satisfy every single professional ever.

Absolutely "Pro" is very much a sales and marketing tool for the consumer sector, yet rarely used in conjunction with hardware that is specifically designed for professional use. Those professionals that have the freedom and are smart choose what's most cost effective and works best for them, certainly not something with "Pro" slapped on the box, price and specification being irrelevant outside their needs :)

Very much agree "Pro" is simply an indicator of levelling up in the consumer space. Personally I would be pleased if Apple dropped the "Pro" naming convention as it kind of comes across as "cheesy" and something to attract the teens...

Q-6
 
Absolutely "Pro" is very much a sales and marketing tool for the consumer sector, yet rarely used in conjunction with hardware that is specifically designed for professional use. Those professionals that have the freedom and are smart choose what's most cost effective and works best for them, certainly not something with "Pro" slapped on the box, price and specification being irrelevant outside their needs :)

Very much agree "Pro" is simply an indicator of levelling up in the consumer space. Personally I would be pleased if Apple dropped the "Pro" naming convention as it kind of comes across as "cheesy" and something to attract the teens...

Q-6

Not just Apple. But Microsoft with their Surface Pro, Sony with their PS4 Pro, and more.

What would be a better name for the "Enhanced" laptops and iMacs? Macbook Plus? iMac Plus? I actually think the iMac Pro is a good fit with the workstation hardware. It won't satisfy all professionals, but no professional system will.
 
Not just Apple. But Microsoft with their Surface Pro, Sony with their PS4 Pro, and more.

What would be a better name for the "Enhanced" laptops and iMacs? Macbook Plus? iMac Plus? I actually think the iMac Pro is a good fit with the workstation hardware. It won't satisfy all professionals, but no professional system will.

Think the iMac Pro is more of the same, equally a big step up in the right direction. Ultimately just terminology, personally I would like to see Apple bring back the "PowerBook" branding, however that rather throws a wrench in the works with the upcoming iMac Pro, although PowerMac might work. Ultimately the performance of the HW/SW will speak for itself, and for those of use using ,it that's more than enough...

Agree this is not solely confined to Apple, however equally shallow :)

Q-6
 
That means it's using 16 GB, not that it needs 16 GB. Unused RAM is wasted RAM, so MacOS memory management doesn't start clearing out what isn't needed until more is actually needed.

If you have a 32 GB Mac, and it's showing 20+ GB used, I can almost guarantee the amount would be under 16 GB if that's all your Mac has, unless you have VMs or other apps open using very large amounts of memory.

Yeah, VM is exactly my issue. I'm getting by on 16GB, but 32 would be better.
Roughly 2X better. Hahaha

Unfortunately I still need to do local Windows dev from time to time and it would be nice to have a big chunk of RAM to allocate to my WMWare instance.

Really don't want to buy a separate machine for it. And being mobile is paramount.

#thestruggleisreal
:D
 
I couldn't wait either - I've been waiting since 2012 for an adequate replacement. I had to hackintosh a Dell XPS 15 which has removable SSD and 32 GB RAM. I would have preferred an Apple, but I couldn't soundly invest in the 2016/2017 MBP with all the keyboard problems they have.
 
I couldn't wait either - I've been waiting since 2012 for an adequate replacement. I had to hackintosh a Dell XPS 15 which has removable SSD and 32 GB RAM. I would have preferred an Apple, but I couldn't soundly invest in the 2016/2017 MBP with all the keyboard problems they have.

Nor could I, Apple needs to deliver not just talk about it's commitment to the "professional user base" too little, too late, then only an overly compromised consumer based product...

Hardly surprising so few are utilising the platform professionally, given the limited hardware options, coupled with a increasingly unstable OS...

Q-6
 
I couldn't wait either - I've been waiting since 2012 for an adequate replacement. I had to hackintosh a Dell XPS 15 which has removable SSD and 32 GB RAM. I would have preferred an Apple, but I couldn't soundly invest in the 2016/2017 MBP with all the keyboard problems they have.

Wow I didn't know such a thing was possible! Agree 100% with your reasoning!
 
It is not imagined, look back in the day, when dinosaurs roamed, we used 32bit operating systems, and this was the bee's knees, it was a Godsend in every way, why??? With 32bit, this came with a "problem" that problem was that no application could use more than 2GB of RAM, period!!! So you just added more RAM, now 64bit has created a monster Apple has no idea how to solve...

Apps and the OS are out of control, Intel and Apple have a relationship that is incestuous, there is zero incentive for Intel or Apple to push the boundary of technology at this point, Apple have announced that they have a problem with High Sierra.

Then Phil Schiller claims more than 16GB RAM on a mobile device is too power hungry, that might be so, but is that the whole reason, it might be 1% of the problem, the other 99%? Look no idiot is going to edit fast and Furious 99 on a macbook air...you are going to edit on the air, with that air sucking very nicely on it's power cord...So really Phil...give it up...

16GB is a joke, the way HS handles memory is shocking, having 3 web pages open, slows the macbook pro to a crawl...8GB RAM should be way more than enough to run safari technology preview...but it is not....

What Apple does it stun people with fancy graphics at some fancy venue, but fail to publish a single video, about this post the event..Surely this would create jobs for a couple of freelancers, sure u-tube is full of tutorials made by folks not paid by Apple, and sometimes this information is a bit confusing at best...

The present day hardware is really poor when compared to devices from a decade ago, we have actually taken a step back...64Bit is not all that great right now....maybe in 30 years it will, hopefully Tim Cook would have been successful in his mission to kill Apple Inc!
 
Then Phil Schiller claims more than 16GB RAM on a mobile device is too power hungry...

I wonder if anyone has tested this theory in the real world.

It makes sense on paper... but what exactly are we talking about?

Instead of a claimed 10 hours of battery life... you get 9.5 hours? Or, gasp, 9 hours?

And let's be honest... if you're the type of person who needs a mobile workstation with 32GB of RAM to chew through heavy video editing or whatever... you're probably gonna be plugged in anyway.

So yeah... it just seems odd that Apple can't even offer the option.

(Hey Phil... other vendors have 32GB laptops... like all of them...) :p
 
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Look it is simple..Apple does not have the stomach for innovation, they simply don't have the will or the reason to innovate laptops, mac pro's, they have cancelled apple branded monitors...

Why is Jony Ive hard soldering in all replaceable parts into devices? Does Jony have shares in a solder supplier??? The point of power being the issue is not the reason, you either add more batteries...which by the way are not replaceable as in the previous generation, you could buy replacement batteries.

Ok...no Apple power brick? You claim power is the problem, so why no external power brick? So Phill I call you out on that...You are being very economical about the reasons...

Intel claim this reason, or that reason, something about 10nm dies, maybe, but really if fakes from China have 32GB and maybe more...what is the reason the "premiere" brand is decades behind????
 
It is not imagined, look back in the day, when dinosaurs roamed, we used 32bit operating systems, and this was the bee's knees, it was a Godsend in every way, why??? With 32bit, this came with a "problem" that problem was that no application could use more than 2GB of RAM, period!!! So you just added more RAM, now 64bit has created a monster Apple has no idea how to solve...

It's quite simple, really. There are tasks and workflows that require 32, 64, 128, 256Gb RAM.... and beyond. There are tasks that could make use of every bit of memory you install. Running VMs, running demanding rendering jobs, etc.

Honestly, most of these jobs require much more CPU and GPU horsepower than a laptop can provide anyway, but I guess sometimes it is useful to have lot of RAM on a laptop too.

The problem is, most people complaining here do not do this type of work. They are running regular apps and drawing the wrong conclusions by watching the Activity Monitor, or iStat Menus or whatever. They see that, I'm paraphrasing, their "RAM is all filled up". This is their logic: "the computer says I'm using 15 or 16Gb RAM, so I'm all filled up. The next app that tries to load will require more, and there won't be any free RAM left." This, of course, is wrong - because if you know how memory management works you'll know that every modern OS will do their best to fill up all the available RAM no matter how much you have of it. Of course, only a part of that is actually used by apps, the rest is preloading things, caching, etc.

Now, what happens - let's say your computer slows down and you see a beach ball spinning. You RAM is supposedly "full" (although it really isn't) and you assume (which is reasonable, but wrong) that you need more RAM. Instead, the slowdown is most likely tied to something else entirely.


Also, with 32bit OSes, the limit per application was 4Gb, not 2. And, I am not sure what Apple "does not know how to solve" and how 64bit is "a monster". Every modern OS is 64bit which is a good thing. It also allows for much more memory usage, but it doesn't mean adding more will always give benefits. There are numerous tests (for example, Linus has a great video) that show that currently (and this has been true for a while, and will be true for a while longer) even 8Gb RAM is enough for most tasks and that adding more rarely gives improvements. 16Gb RAM is enough for serious work and unless you're into some very specific tasks, you won't need more for a good 5 years to come. There ARE people who need more, don't get me wrong. But these people are doing specific tasks with this RAM, not opening up Chrome tabs and looking at the Activity Monitor thinking their browser, Spotify and Mail are too big for 16Gb.
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Look it is simple..Apple does not have the stomach for innovation, they simply don't have the will or the reason to innovate laptops, mac pro's, they have cancelled apple branded monitors...

What does innovation have anything to do with the amount of RAM in a laptop?
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(Hey Phil... other vendors have 32GB laptops... like all of them...) :p

With tradeoffs. Which doesn't mean they are not good for some people, just that there are tradeoffs and that most people should not buy a 32Gb Dell XPS, unless they really need it. Apple is a different kind of company than Dell, so they chose not to offer this option. It's not like they couldn't easily do it, they just think this is the way to go about it: offer 16Gb laptops now and wait for low powered RAM to catch up.
 
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