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4GB 'iPod Mini' and 15GB iPod
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That's a valid point. and part of the reason Apple has scaled back their commitments to participate actively in all Macworld shows. The expectation that Apple will or can make all kinds of fantastic announcements exactly every six months just doesn't fit with business reality. Yes, this may have been a slightly-less dramatic set of announcements than Macworld keynotes have seen in the past (or maybe more dramatic, judging from all the debate about mini and iLife pricing) but at least they had something new to announce. Apple has a good history of making other product announcements within a few weeks of Macworld shows, so there will likely be more stuff coming. If they had released the iPod Minis in that way, rather than via ketnote feature, I would be willing to bet that the level of consternation over the price wouldn't approach what it has here.
Re: Re: iPod UK price?
Exactly, the european prices are going to be even worse. I'm flying over to California next week from the UK and coming back on Feb. 4th. If they are in stores by that time... (I'm taking orders ;-)!)
Exactly, the european prices are going to be even worse. I'm flying over to California next week from the UK and coming back on Feb. 4th. If they are in stores by that time... (I'm taking orders ;-)!)
I just wanted to add one more post to this huge thread. I've already posted back on the 100's my thoughts, and after 400 more, it's the same argument over and over. We've all pretty well defined that these are not what we expected.
Drop the price Apple, make everyone happy, not just people with money to burn.
Has any other thread on MacRumors had over 500 posts in < 24 hours before?
Drop the price Apple, make everyone happy, not just people with money to burn.
Has any other thread on MacRumors had over 500 posts in < 24 hours before?
As others have said, the iPod Mini is a different product from the iPod. Comparing GB and cost without considering other factors is illogical.
You have three basic choices in mp3 players:
- an iPod or iPod-like device (Nomad Zen, etc). Expensive, large capacity, the size of a PDA.
- an iPod Mini. Expensive, moderate capacity, a bit smaller than a cell phone.
- a Flash memory device. Least expensive, but low capacity (commonly 256 MB or less).
People who are interested in one of those things will probably not be very interested in another. They serve different markets.
I might buy the iPod Mini even at the same price as the 15 GB iPod, because the form factor is more important to me than the storage capacity.
When you get down to it, how much capacity do you need? With firewire/USB 2.0, you can swap out what's on it as often as you need. 800-1,000 songs is enough for anything short of a three-month trip to hike the Himalayas.
I already carry a bulky cell phone (Treo 600) and have decided that I do not want to buy and carry an iPod. I prefer using a 512 MB card in my Treo, so I can stick with one device. The iPod Mini might be small enough for me to sell my 512 MB card and buy one. I'm going to wait for some hands-on reviews, and maybe play with one in an Apple store, before I buy. But right now, I'm leaning toward buying one, quite simply, because I value the form factor more than I value the surplus storage capacity.
You have three basic choices in mp3 players:
- an iPod or iPod-like device (Nomad Zen, etc). Expensive, large capacity, the size of a PDA.
- an iPod Mini. Expensive, moderate capacity, a bit smaller than a cell phone.
- a Flash memory device. Least expensive, but low capacity (commonly 256 MB or less).
People who are interested in one of those things will probably not be very interested in another. They serve different markets.
I might buy the iPod Mini even at the same price as the 15 GB iPod, because the form factor is more important to me than the storage capacity.
When you get down to it, how much capacity do you need? With firewire/USB 2.0, you can swap out what's on it as often as you need. 800-1,000 songs is enough for anything short of a three-month trip to hike the Himalayas.
I already carry a bulky cell phone (Treo 600) and have decided that I do not want to buy and carry an iPod. I prefer using a 512 MB card in my Treo, so I can stick with one device. The iPod Mini might be small enough for me to sell my 512 MB card and buy one. I'm going to wait for some hands-on reviews, and maybe play with one in an Apple store, before I buy. But right now, I'm leaning toward buying one, quite simply, because I value the form factor more than I value the surplus storage capacity.
agentmouthwash
macrumors regular
In America, it's either Bigger is better or smaller is better. That's why we have people driving Huge SUVs or Tiny Bugs.
Apple rather be able to say WE HAVE THE SMALLEST, instead of caring about what's really important - the price. Instead of putting all their money in R&D for coming out with the smallest ipod, they should of came out with the Cheapest. They screwed up because I know 3 people that were hoping for $200 or less Ipods. THey didn't care about how SMALL it was. Well Guess what Apple, they aren't buying ipods. They are going to buy something else.
Apple rather be able to say WE HAVE THE SMALLEST, instead of caring about what's really important - the price. Instead of putting all their money in R&D for coming out with the smallest ipod, they should of came out with the Cheapest. They screwed up because I know 3 people that were hoping for $200 or less Ipods. THey didn't care about how SMALL it was. Well Guess what Apple, they aren't buying ipods. They are going to buy something else.
Maybe someone is expecting too much sometimes 😉
One can't make everybody happy and at the same time run a competetive business. If it is too pricey for you - then this product is clearly not for you.
Seems like only after Apple releases free iLife and OS for life, almost free iPods to everyone all over the world and cheap computers people will be happy - I bet you won't be then... cause what would you be wanting next?
When arguing about these things - think a little different for a while... about all the millions of people to whom this discussion will seem quite meaningless. Lots of people (even in the US) can't even think of getting near a computer, and here people are complaining about an iPod they can't afford and doesn't even like... why bother?
(oops - got a bit out to the far left there.... 😉
Then again, I was NOT considering any iPod for purchase; now I am, due to the size.
It could very well be that my one purchase at $250 will give Apple more profit than if they sold three to your friends for $199 or whatever price you'd suggest.
I doubt Apple can build and distribute them for less than $180 or so.
It could very well be that my one purchase at $250 will give Apple more profit than if they sold three to your friends for $199 or whatever price you'd suggest.
I doubt Apple can build and distribute them for less than $180 or so.
Just to point out that we all should stop with the meaningless $/GB comparisons:
4Gig @ $199 = $50 per gig
I know brilliant math there but it is clear that the minipod is targeted at a completely different niche.
And while I'm at it, it could be that the smaller hard drive(more resistant to shocks) combined with the same memory will make for a product that satisfies all but the most "wild" runners.
Only time will tell.
4Gig @ $199 = $50 per gig
I know brilliant math there but it is clear that the minipod is targeted at a completely different niche.
And while I'm at it, it could be that the smaller hard drive(more resistant to shocks) combined with the same memory will make for a product that satisfies all but the most "wild" runners.
Only time will tell.
Yesterday I thought Apple is stupid to price the mini at $249. Now I think Apple is brilliant! They are going after the very high end of the market. As some have posted about demographics near Apple stores. Demographics mirror those of online buyers I'm sure.
In my neighborhood of Plano, TX the Apple store is at the same mall with Armani and Neiman Marcus. Then I took a close look at the colors of the mini. Apple is going after the yuppie gadget gurus who must have it all. In my area that includes $50,000 a year wannabe posers in their leased Porsche Boxsters. It includes bored housewives who spend their days at the gym driving around their Land Rovers. And it includes the teen age Brittany Spears try hards who tote around their Kate Spade bags and hot wheel in their BMW's.
The guys will scoop up alum and green while the teen age bimbettes will eat up the pink and baby blue Mini's.. Marketing genius... Then come Dec they attack the low end with reduced pricing and go after the average sally and Joe's.
In my neighborhood of Plano, TX the Apple store is at the same mall with Armani and Neiman Marcus. Then I took a close look at the colors of the mini. Apple is going after the yuppie gadget gurus who must have it all. In my area that includes $50,000 a year wannabe posers in their leased Porsche Boxsters. It includes bored housewives who spend their days at the gym driving around their Land Rovers. And it includes the teen age Brittany Spears try hards who tote around their Kate Spade bags and hot wheel in their BMW's.
The guys will scoop up alum and green while the teen age bimbettes will eat up the pink and baby blue Mini's.. Marketing genius... Then come Dec they attack the low end with reduced pricing and go after the average sally and Joe's.
If you don't want one, don't buy one. How complicated is that?
If nobody buys them, I'm sure Apple will cut the price, or drop the line.
However, does anybody really think Apple will have trouble selling these, and making a good margin on them?
It's just another option. If you look at it and all you can think about is gigabytes, it's probably not for you.
I understand that some people are price-sensitive. However, Apple is not targeting the price-sensitive segment of the market. Really never has.
If nobody buys them, I'm sure Apple will cut the price, or drop the line.
However, does anybody really think Apple will have trouble selling these, and making a good margin on them?
It's just another option. If you look at it and all you can think about is gigabytes, it's probably not for you.
I understand that some people are price-sensitive. However, Apple is not targeting the price-sensitive segment of the market. Really never has.
Count Blah
macrumors 68040
Don't they already have the high end of the market with the classic iPod? At least that is what Steve said in his keynote. He said he wanted to go after the middle third of the market - $100 to $200 flash players. Seems to me that he missed the target he was shooting for. There is a HUGE mental barrier between $1** and $2**. A $199 - 2Gig iPod mini would have been better and not canabalized the classic iPod sales too much because of the 7.5X more storage for $100 more.
Let's compare to a genuine "great marketing move"
If people here have been keeping their eyes on digital camera, they should be aware that Canon introduced a sub-1000 DSLR camera in Sep 2003 which was the first breaking the $1000 limit.
That camera has been since then selling like crazy as all other competitors were still selling DSLR for at least $1600. The result? Stock out everywhere. Not only the camera itself, but also Canon's luxury-series camera lenses which themselves are more expensive than the camera body!
Canon, by lowering the price of camera body, creates a hugh demand and lucrative profit for its lens business. Besides, it preempts its main rival Nikon by locking new DSLR user into Canon equipment system (switching cost is hugh when user switches camera system).
Comparing the above story anologically to pricing of iPod mini, you could see that if Apple makes a low-priced entry product, demand for iTune Store service will be tremendous in term of both volume and profit.
However, we all knew that Apple missed its chance. It failed to further boost its iTune Store business, failed to use its First Move advantage as well as preempting rival such as Real.
A pity on this. Period.
If people here have been keeping their eyes on digital camera, they should be aware that Canon introduced a sub-1000 DSLR camera in Sep 2003 which was the first breaking the $1000 limit.
That camera has been since then selling like crazy as all other competitors were still selling DSLR for at least $1600. The result? Stock out everywhere. Not only the camera itself, but also Canon's luxury-series camera lenses which themselves are more expensive than the camera body!
Canon, by lowering the price of camera body, creates a hugh demand and lucrative profit for its lens business. Besides, it preempts its main rival Nikon by locking new DSLR user into Canon equipment system (switching cost is hugh when user switches camera system).
Comparing the above story anologically to pricing of iPod mini, you could see that if Apple makes a low-priced entry product, demand for iTune Store service will be tremendous in term of both volume and profit.
However, we all knew that Apple missed its chance. It failed to further boost its iTune Store business, failed to use its First Move advantage as well as preempting rival such as Real.
A pity on this. Period.
All those people argueing that you could get 4x the capacity for $50 by buying a 15GB iPod instead of an 4GB iPod mini, should look at the situation when the original iPod came out.
For probably the around the same price of an 5GB (1.8'' HD-based) iPod you could have gotten back then a 20GB (2.5'' HD-based) Nomad or whatever player. But people bought the iPod in droves, although admittedly because it had a better design and UI, but also because it was small and cool.
Another example would be external FW-drives. I bought a 60GB 2.5'' drive although I could have gotten a 250GB 3.5'' drive for almost the same money.
For probably the around the same price of an 5GB (1.8'' HD-based) iPod you could have gotten back then a 20GB (2.5'' HD-based) Nomad or whatever player. But people bought the iPod in droves, although admittedly because it had a better design and UI, but also because it was small and cool.
Another example would be external FW-drives. I bought a 60GB 2.5'' drive although I could have gotten a 250GB 3.5'' drive for almost the same money.
I think that Apple might be smart to "lock people into iTunes" by selling a $175 Flash-based player. I do not think that Apple should go broke selling HD-based players at or below manufacturing/distribution/marketing costs just to "lock people into iTunes".
While I think that Flash-based players are not ready for prime time yet (too low capacity), I think that Flash-based players are going to become very appealing in the near future.
This is not a cheapo iPod. Get that through your head. This is a premium device, just in a different way. It will be bought by people who don't care about the cost diff. between it and a regular iPod, but who want the form factor.
You are right, a 2 GB $150 iPod would be nice, but are 2 GB hard drives really enough cheaper for that to make financial sense for Apple? Most of the cost of a hard drive, for a manufacturer, is mechanical, unrelated to capacity. That is why you don't see 20 GB hard drives in Best Buy anymore - they cost almost as much to make as 120 GB ones but can't be sold for nearly as much.
While I think that Flash-based players are not ready for prime time yet (too low capacity), I think that Flash-based players are going to become very appealing in the near future.
This is not a cheapo iPod. Get that through your head. This is a premium device, just in a different way. It will be bought by people who don't care about the cost diff. between it and a regular iPod, but who want the form factor.
You are right, a 2 GB $150 iPod would be nice, but are 2 GB hard drives really enough cheaper for that to make financial sense for Apple? Most of the cost of a hard drive, for a manufacturer, is mechanical, unrelated to capacity. That is why you don't see 20 GB hard drives in Best Buy anymore - they cost almost as much to make as 120 GB ones but can't be sold for nearly as much.
It's not that much smaller though. it's almost as tall. And the iPod 15gig is still pretty cool. It's not night and day like iPod vs. Nomad.
i dont see what the big deal is
Apple wants to make money, period. Also it doesn't want to alienate all those first time Apple buyers who probably bought their first iPod this past Christmas. Releasing a cheaper iPod mini, would have pissed them off to no end. Believe me. So they price it high, they can always lower it in the summer to spur sales, the production still needs to ramp up anyways. And then they can bottom it out for next Xmas. The new $249 price tag is for those early adopters, Apple needs them to build early word of mouth and develop that ever elusive cachet a gadget needs to be successful.
My guess is this is going to be a big hit and in time will usurp the original iPod. I might be wrong, apple has had marketing disasters in the past, but Jobs is a good learner I think, he doesn't repeat too many mistakes.
Apple wants to make money, period. Also it doesn't want to alienate all those first time Apple buyers who probably bought their first iPod this past Christmas. Releasing a cheaper iPod mini, would have pissed them off to no end. Believe me. So they price it high, they can always lower it in the summer to spur sales, the production still needs to ramp up anyways. And then they can bottom it out for next Xmas. The new $249 price tag is for those early adopters, Apple needs them to build early word of mouth and develop that ever elusive cachet a gadget needs to be successful.
My guess is this is going to be a big hit and in time will usurp the original iPod. I might be wrong, apple has had marketing disasters in the past, but Jobs is a good learner I think, he doesn't repeat too many mistakes.
Some perspective:
The iPod Mini is 64% the weight of a regular iPod. It is 58% the weight of the max-capacity iPod.
The 12" Powerbook is 82% the weight of a 15" Powerbook. It is 67% the weight of a 17" Powerbook.
Still think there isn't much of a difference in size between iPod and iPod Mini?
The iPod Mini is 64% the weight of a regular iPod. It is 58% the weight of the max-capacity iPod.
The 12" Powerbook is 82% the weight of a 15" Powerbook. It is 67% the weight of a 17" Powerbook.
Still think there isn't much of a difference in size between iPod and iPod Mini?
Count Blah
macrumors 68040
One grain of sand is 50% lighter and 50% smaller than two grains of sand. WOW!!!! what a huge difference.
Did you ever see that SNL where one of the guys from Will & Grace was working in an Ubertrendy clothing store with Jimmy Fallon? At the end Will Farrell comes in and his "Cell Phone" rings. He pulls out a flip phone the size of a paper clip and has a conversation. At some point the size of these things does not matter. Obviously there is a market for smaller more durable MP3 players for working out, but is it 1/3 of the market like Jobs is claiming to go after? I don't think so.
It's called the law of diminishing returns. At these sizes 70% of something else is pretty much negligible.
Yeah, but at what point does that happen, exactly?
I listed weight because it's easier to calculate than volume, but the devices are similarly different in size in all dimensions.
It makes a difference for which pocket you carry it in, what else you can fit in the pocket, whether you can carry a cell phone and the iPod at the same time without a gadget belt ... etc.
I'm sure that people who use 12" Powerbooks COULD use 15" or 17" models. They would not die from the extra weight and bulk. And yet people feel there's a noteworthy difference.
I think if you let the market decide, you'll find that the Mini does fine, in the long run.
Awimoway
macrumors 68000
Re: Let's compare to a genuine "great marketing move"
Your analogy is upside down, with respect to the iPod. Apple created the iTMS to sell iPods. They aren't selling the iPod to boost iTMS sales. Apple doesn't expect to rake the cash in on the music store, but they do on the iPod. I think they got greedy with the pricing of the mini, though, because it won't sell nearly as well as it might have.
Your analogy is upside down, with respect to the iPod. Apple created the iTMS to sell iPods. They aren't selling the iPod to boost iTMS sales. Apple doesn't expect to rake the cash in on the music store, but they do on the iPod. I think they got greedy with the pricing of the mini, though, because it won't sell nearly as well as it might have.
Re: Let's compare to a genuine "great marketing move"
I am sorry to say, but you are so totally wrong!
Firstly the demand for iTunes Store is already tremendous (70%marketshare). Secondly it is the other way around; ITMS is the driver for iPod. Apple makes virtually no money on the store - as far as I know it still is in the red, and will be extremely difficult to manage into any big profitmaker at all. At the same time the iPods is a big part of the revenue for Apple - basicly because of their premium price.
Thirdly; I am quite sure this product will hit the streets and do just that - hit. And thus further increase ITMS popularity. Simply because not everyone can get one and therefore everyone would want one 😀
I am sorry to say, but you are so totally wrong!
Firstly the demand for iTunes Store is already tremendous (70%marketshare). Secondly it is the other way around; ITMS is the driver for iPod. Apple makes virtually no money on the store - as far as I know it still is in the red, and will be extremely difficult to manage into any big profitmaker at all. At the same time the iPods is a big part of the revenue for Apple - basicly because of their premium price.
Thirdly; I am quite sure this product will hit the streets and do just that - hit. And thus further increase ITMS popularity. Simply because not everyone can get one and therefore everyone would want one 😀