4GB 'iPod Mini' and 15GB iPod

[Count Blah]

Originally posted by wombat2
Yeah, but at what point does that happen, exactly?

I listed weight because it's easier to calculate than volume, but the devices are similarly different in size in all dimensions.

It makes a difference for which pocket you carry it in, what else you can fit in the pocket, whether you can carry a cell phone and the iPod at the same time without a gadget belt ... etc.

I'm sure that people who use 12" Powerbooks COULD use 15" or 17" models. They would not die from the extra weight and bulk. And yet people feel there's a noteworthy difference.

I think if you let the market decide, you'll find that the Mini does fine, in the long run.

I agree that they will do fine, as soon as there is a 2Gig version or the existing version drops to $199. I know lots of people who would buy one at $199, but would not consider it at $200. Apple already has the $250+ market cornered. Why beat a dead horse?

 

[drproctor]

Re: Re: Let's compare to a genuine "great marketing move"

Originally posted by iMan
I am sorry to say, but you are so totally wrong!
Firstly the demand for iTunes Store is already tremendous (70%marketshare).

And exactly how big is that market?

Secondly it is the other way around; ITMS is the driver for iPod. Apple makes virtually no money on the store - as far as I know it still is in the red, and will be extremely difficult to manage into any big profitmaker at all. At the same time the iPods is a big part of the revenue for Apple - basicly because of their premium price.

ITMS is the iPod driver, however from what i've 'heard' the iTunes store is breaking even. As it gets bigger, and smaller labels continue to jump on board, it has enormous potential to make a fine profit.

Thirdly; I am quite sure this product will hit the streets and do just that - hit. And thus further increase ITMS popularity. Simply because not everyone can get one and therefore everyone would want one 😀

I am sorry to say, but you are so totally wrong!
Same thing could be said of the larger, $50 pricier iPod models. Just because I (or anyone else) can't buy something doesn't mean I necessarily want it.

 

[brywalker]

Apple has always been about making markets that weren't there. That is why I fail to understand why they didn't make a 2GB $199 model! Forget the competition, MAKE THE MARKET! It will force everyone else to fight that pricepoint, and fail miserably. Then Apple will OWN the PDP market and then they can do what they want.

If Apple was smart:

$499 - 40GB
$399 - 20GB
$299 - 15GB
$249 - 4GB mini
$199 - 2GB mini
$179 - 1GB mini

You want the market Apple? GO GET IT! Stop being so damn passive! Get aggressive and TAKE THE MARKET!

Listen, Steve. It's not about what YOU want. It's about what THE CUSTOMERS WANT! When are you going to learn? Make your products affordable for EVERYONE and make Apple a household name!

I can honestly say its amazing that Apple has stayed in business this long. If Sony or RCA or whoever else adopted this business model, they would have been LONG GONE. Even high end companies like Denon, etc, have low end lines now. No wonder Microsoft had to bail them out....

Grrr.

 

[wombat2]

$249 - 4GB mini
$199 - 2GB mini
$179 - 1GB mini

You do realize that Apple would probably lose money (or at best break even) with every one of the latter two devices sold, at those prices. Right?

Rio's 1.5 GB device is $199. Ask yourself why.

 

[brywalker]

You do realize that Apple has incredible relationships with Hitachi Storage now (followed them from IBM) and could easily get these smaller storage iPods to hit those prices. Magic happens when you buy 500,000 drives at a time....

Rio doesn't have this kind of relationship with manufacturers. They haven't been around 25 years. And if Rio can make a 1.5G for $199, Apple can SURE AS HELL add .5GB for the same price....

Also, who cares if they break even? Its called market saturation. They make money on the 4GB and up, so work on upselling. To quote SJ himself...

"Its the best $50 you will ever spend!"

Its OK to break even/lose a little money when you are carving out a new market. Thats why you make money on all of your other products. If they lose $10 on every 1GB/2GB iPod they sell, and make like $1000 on every stacked G5 they sell, whats the big deal?* Like I said. Put one in every home, then do whatever you want.


*Numbers are for arguments sake, doesn't necessarily reflect profit margins on said items. All rights reserved. Offer not available in Ohio.

 

[iMan]

Re: Re: Re: Let's compare to a genuine "great marketing move"

Originally posted by drproctor
And exactly how big is that market?

ITMS is the iPod driver, however from what i've 'heard' the iTunes store is breaking even. As it gets bigger, and smaller labels continue to jump on board, it has enormous potential to make a fine profit.

I am sorry to say, but you are so totally wrong!
Same thing could be said of the larger, $50 pricier iPod models. Just because I (or anyone else) can't buy something doesn't mean I necessarily want it.

The potential market for online music is huge. It is unrealistic that anyone would keep a 70% marketshare in the world over time - neither will Apple. It is to hope it will be the most popular and best, but how many music stores/chains are there in the world today? I think there will be a lot of online stores in the future, and it will neither be possible to maintain a 99c/song price. Selling the music is not where the money lays, and it should not be.

And just because you don't want it doesn't mean that noone else won't. The larger iPod is a success - still it is only 2 mill units of a potential market of how many?

I believe that the miniPod will have a price fall as indicated by others here: when the 8GB is coming. But I would not expect a large drop (maybe 199), Apple has a history of rather discontinue than drop prices...

 

[brywalker]

I would also like to add (in this new reply) that the market for PDP is HUGE! You figure that there are 6+ BILLION people in the world. Lets just say 1/2 like music. And 1/2 of them can actually afford disposable income on something like that. So we are at 1.5 BILLION.

Makes 2 million look pretty weak, no?

Digital music players are the future. Apple has the chance to own the portable market, and if they were smart, they would work on the home market too. I would be first in line to get a handsome Apple home digital audio player that can be used to stream audio from your computer and also has a built in HDD. Make it have a nice video menu and direct link to iTMS. But we all know it would be like $400, which would be an Apple move for sure....

 

[feakbeak]

Originally posted by brywalker
I would also like to add (in this new reply) that the market for PDP is HUGE! You figure that there are 6+ BILLION people in the world. Lets just say 1/2 like music. And 1/2 of them can actually afford disposable income on something like that. So we are at 1.5 BILLION.

Makes 2 million look pretty weak, no?

You really think that half of the people on this planet have $250+ in disposable income for an iPod? You need to travel more or at least watch the news or read a newspaper.

Far less people than you have assumed have the luxury of owning a computer or any other digital entertainment devices. I think the PS2 has sold like 50 million units which is impressive. The idea that Apple can sell 1.5 billion iPods is not well thought out.

 

[machinehien]

Brywalker

I would also like to add (in this new reply) that the market for PDP is HUGE! You figure that there are 6+ BILLION people in the world. Lets just say 1/2 like music. And 1/2 of them can actually afford disposable income on something like that. So we are at 1.5 BILLION.

I don't know where to start with this. Honestly out of the 6 Billion people on this planet, 5 Billion are living in poverty, A good billion will never know medical care or a life without hunger. Even the affuent middle class people of the world have a quality of life most Americans or Westerners would find severely lacking.

You need to visit the slums of Mexico City or Cairo. Better yet visit them with your PDP hanging around your neck. Someone will relieve you of it soon enough.

The underlying message is that if you're even in the position of contemplating an iPod as a purchase, you are luckier than 95% of this planet.

Sorry to burst your bubble but no one is ever going to sell a billion music players. I doubt there are enough resources on the planet to elevate enough people in their quality of life in order for them to consider type of decission.

 

[brywalker]

Ok. It was a somewhat flawed analogy.

Think of it this way...

How many homes have televisions? How many homes have more than, say, 3 televisions?

There should be at least one iPod for every home that has a computer. And at $250, there is no way they can ever hit that number.

And, feakbeak, that is the point. $250 is a lot in disposable income for a music player. Companies have to shoot for the bottom rung as well as the high end in order to get ahead.

Who ever heard of Apex before they started making sub $100 DVD players? Now you can get them as low as $30, and even though the cheaper ones aren't the best quality, its no wonder that they are one of the top selling players in at least the US. Some people can't justify the cost of getting a $1200 Pioneer Elite DVD player. And thats fine. But Pioneer also has one thats like $150 for people that can't see themselves spending $1200.

I know I am really beating a dead horse here. But the point is that Apple isn't going to be around another 20 years unless they start catering to the other 97% of the computer market and the other 70% of the PDP market. People are still buying portable CD players, not because they are better, but because they are CHEAPER.

 

[Dahl]

I think we should remember that the iPod and other digital players still are considered "new". There are still plenty of people that have yet to see an iPod in person, so Apple ( and others ) is learning about the marketplace as they go along.

How long did it take the walkman to be true household name, probably more than a couple of years. Even when comparing the iPod to other gadgets, one must remember the iPod is useless without a computer. That alone will also make the iPods future sales come slower that we all hope for. Many may have the $ for an iPod, but not a computer.
Apple will stay ahead, as long as they don't rush things.

 

[feffer37]

Brywalker Posted:

Listen, Steve. It's not about what YOU want. It's about what THE CUSTOMERS WANT! When are you going to learn? Make your products affordable for EVERYONE and make Apple a household name!

I can honestly say its amazing that Apple has stayed in business this long. If Sony or RCA or whoever else adopted this business model, they would have been LONG GONE. Even high end companies like Denon, etc, have low end lines now. No wonder Microsoft had to bail them out....

Huh? What are you talking about?!? Sony and RCA have pioneered this business model. If Sony had supplied the products that everyone wanted, you'd see a jogger cd walkman with a handgrip, and a radio, that played mp3 discs. Hell, even a jogger cd walkman with a radio and a hand grip would work too!

It has NEVER about giving consumers what they want when it comes to consumer electronics. It has ALWAYS been about what the manufacturer wants to sell us to make money. It will ALWAYS be that way.

Oh, and when a company like Microsoft buys Apple's stock, that's called an INVESTMENT, not a bailout. I'm pretty confident that Microsoft is quite pleased with their competitor making money for them.

Also, Apple's products already are accessable and affordable to everyone! the eMac alone is more computer than 90% of all the general population even needs! And it's one of the best values out there in computers today! From someone who used to sell computers for a living, and sold Apples as well, Apple Computers have been consistantly better values than PCs since they released OSX (I hated OS9). Frankly, if you aren't able to scrape $250 for a bomb-ass mp3 player, you probably aren't in the market for one to begin with, as the flash players are a pure waste of money for most people.

One thing that I've noticed is that Best Buy now offers Apple Computers, both in store and online. Best Buy anc CompUSA are great places to get that 6 month no interest financing, pay $40-$50 a month, and pay off that nice new iPod. Or you can get an Apple Computer at those places with their Best Buy or CompUSA credit cards. I think that Apple moving to Best Buy is going to be HUGE for them, and is going to make them MUCH more accessable than they already are. Hell, I'd sacrifice a nice dinner or two each MONTH just to pay for an iPod. It really isn't that much of a sacrifice. Quit smoking. Don't eat out as much. Don't go to a few movies each month. Sell some stuff you don't need anymore on eBay or at a Garage sale. I'll bet that everyone who is reading this can figure out where to get the money if they really think about it.

Now Granted, I want a 2GB mp3 Player that is $149-$199 as much as the next guy, but if they don't have one to sell, then I'll just have to grin and bear it.

I didn't mean to jump down your throat or anything, but I did want to quell some of these type of misconceptions, as they are just that, pure misconceptions.

 

[wombat2]

Apple is in business to make money. Unless you think that they are a bunch of dolts who have no idea how much a hard drive costs, etc, at some point, you ought to notice why NOBODY is selling the item you want for the price you want.

I'd also like a Mercedes for $5,000. Why doesn't Mercedes listen to me?!?

Do you really think that Apple will ever see its product as a cheaper version of the Rio Nitrus?

 

[NusuniAdmin]

Originally posted by wombat2
Apple is in business to make money. Unless you think that they are a bunch of dolts who have no idea how much a hard drive costs, etc, at some point, you ought to notice why NOBODY is selling the item you want for the price you want.

I'd also like a Mercedes for $5,000. Why doesn't Mercedes listen to me?!?

Do you really think that Apple will ever see its product as a cheaper version of the Rio Nitrus?

You have no idea how much the drives in the mini ipod cost. They are pretty expensive. Apple likes to use the most high quality material they can get there hands on usualy (the ibook and 15" pb is another store).

 

[wombat2]

You have no idea how much the drives in the mini ipod cost. They are pretty expensive. Apple likes to use the most high quality material they can get there hands on usualy (the ibook and 15" pb is another store).

This is my point. Things cost.

A 2 GB drive probably costs like $15 less to make than a 4 GB drive.

 

[brywalker]

Huh? What are you talking about?!? Sony and RCA have pioneered this business model. If Sony had supplied the products that everyone wanted, you'd see a jogger cd walkman with a handgrip, and a radio, that played mp3 discs. Hell, even a jogger cd walkman with a radio and a hand grip would work too!

Oh, you mean something kinda like this?

S2 Sports

It has NEVER about giving consumers what they want when it comes to consumer electronics. It has ALWAYS been about what the manufacturer wants to sell us to make money. It will ALWAYS be that way.

Thats interesting. I wonder why it is that most DVD players now play MP3 CDs. I know that the company that makes the players don't make a cent on adding MP3 compatability, but there it is. Its because people WANT IT. I could understand if you are arguing the point when the iPod first came out, you always have to force something new into the marketplace. But then you have to adjust the product to cater to what the customers want.

🙂

Oh, and when a company like Microsoft buys Apple's stock, that's called an INVESTMENT, not a bailout. I'm pretty confident that Microsoft is quite pleased with their competitor making money for them.

It sure was an investment, no question. Microsoft knew that Jobs would be able to turn Apple around. But if you think that it wasn't a bailout, you need to get your reality glasses on. No one else was willing to step up to a company that was quickly on its way to ruin, and Microsoft dumped $150M for a non voting stake. I am not going to even debate the fact that they did it to keep a competitor and not face more monopoly charges, etc.

Frankly, if you aren't able to scrape $250 for a bomb-ass mp3 player, you probably aren't in the market for one to begin with, as the flash players are a pure waste of money for most people.

OK. This I have to totally disagree with. I could drop $250 on this right now. Hell, I could get 2 40GB ones right now, thats not the point. I have a budget that I want to stick to. And that budget is $199. I want an iPod and I won't get any other MP3 player. If I can't get one for $199, then I will just not get one at all. The thinking that someone is not in the market for the item just because they won't pay more than they have budgeted for is just the mentality that keeps Apple in this "elite" status. Alot of their products are overpriced, and the brand loyalty just keeps people spending too much for too little.

I'd also like a Mercedes for $5,000. Why doesn't Mercedes listen to me?!?

They did, actually. They Daimler bought Chrysler, which owns a part of Hyundai. Go get an Accent. 😉

 

[NusuniAdmin]

Originally posted by wombat2
This is my point. Things cost.

A 2 GB drive probably costs like $15 less to make than a 4 GB drive.

Ya i worded it a little wierd. I was going along with the quote. Sorry if it seemed "against" you

 

[iMan]

Originally posted by brywalker
Who ever heard of Apex before they started making sub $100 DVD players?

Hate to ask but who or what the f*** is Apex? Sounds like a credit card or a flight scheme to me....

 

[splashman]

MS bailed out Apple? Really?

Originally posted by brywalker
I can honestly say its amazing that Apple has stayed in business this long. If Sony or RCA or whoever else adopted this business model, they would have been LONG GONE. Even high end companies like Denon, etc, have low end lines now. No wonder Microsoft had to bail them out....

Geez, did you skip the Ritalin this morning?

Share your opinions all you want. But you sound like a 2-year-old back seat driver when your tone suggests that you've managed to get a lock on sound business strategy, while those idiots at Apple are too stupid to ask you for help. Remind me: which company do you run?

And your parting cheap shot doesn't do much for your credibility either. Any idea how much cash Apple had on hand at the time of the alleged $150 million "bailout"?

 

[the_dalex]

Well, when I first heard the price I agreed it was too high, but that's a product of our current state of technology and manufacturing more than anything else. You can't bitch at Apple, you have to bitch at the technology... Apple's competitor for the 4GB model is the exact same price, so there's no gouging involved. You get the added Apple value for no extra charge! I call that a deal. Why should a better product sell for less?

I still wonder why Apple "made a horrible mistake" in releasing this product, because I know it will sell. It has a different target market, can actually be sold as a companion to a regular iPod for working out, etc. Bottom line: people will buy it, Apple will make a profit. Anything beyond that is consumer frustration because you aren't getting what you wanted/expected. Not every product is targeted at YOU... get over it!

 

[kugino]

Originally posted by agentmouthwash
In America, it's either Bigger is better or smaller is better. That's why we have people driving Huge SUVs or Tiny Bugs.

ummm...bugs actually aren't that small. coopers (non-American) are tiny. bugs are large in comparison...just thought i'd share

 

[iMan]

Brywalker Posted:

t's about what THE CUSTOMERS WANT! When are you going to learn? Make your products affordable for EVERYONE and make Apple a household name!

I can honestly say its amazing that Apple has stayed in business this long. If Sony or RCA or whoever else adopted this business model, they would have been LONG GONE.

1. If Apple ever gets to be a household brand (which I doubt) they would loose all the magic and hence a lot of the profit. Sorry. That is another marketing approach entirely.

2. Sony does use this actually: they never market reasearch and they never ask what consumers want. Because consumers don't really know what they want until they see it and gets their hands on it. How would you do innovation otherwise - it is not the general public that come up with the great ideas is it?

 

[Count Blah]

Originally posted by iMan
Hate to ask but who or what the f*** is Apex? Sounds like a credit card or a flight scheme to me....

I have an Apex, my parents have an Apex, my in-laws have an Apex, 2 sisters both have the Apex DVD players.

We are the same kind of people who would have bought an iPod mini if it were $1**, and would not buy one at $2**. You know, those people who Steve claimed to be going after with his middle third of his pie chart.

Instead of Apple having 95% of the $250+ MP3 market I guess they wanted to go for 98% while ignoring those who have a hard cap of $199 for a non critical item like an MP3 player.

 

[wombat2]

Instead of Apple having 95% of the $250+ MP3 market I guess they wanted to go for 98% while ignoring those who have a hard cap of $199 for a non critical item like an MP3 player.

Minus the emotional phraseology, yes, pretty much.

Apex and Apple do not look at the market in the same terms. Apple does not want to be Apex. I'm sure Apex would like to be Apple.

 

[iMan]

Originally posted by Count Blah
I have an Apex, my parents have an Apex, my in-laws have an Apex, 2 sisters both have the Apex DVD players.

Well.. living outside of the US I wonder why I have come to love the innovation of Apple (even though I don't always agree on their strategy) but have never heard of this Apex... I guess it has something to do with a strong brand over time... 😉

BTW: actually there is a discounted flight ticket that is called APEX in my part of the world... sounds like something cheap - like Apple is associating with that... right..?