Uh... Yes, I am a parent. And if you think that you can't reason with a 16 or a 6 year old, you better talk to someone that can help you....or (not to be insulting) watch Super Nanny. I don't have time to provide links to you, but here's one. It can be done. I've dealt with all sorts of kids and sometimes you do have to 'experiment' to find what works. This teacher did no harm except expose this boy to how his classmates truly felt...it's better that it's done earlier rather than later.
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5 year old "voted out of class" by classmates
- Thread starter furcalchick
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Uh... Yes, I am a parent. And if you think that you can't reason with a 16 or a 6 year old, you better talk to someone that can help you....or (not to be insulting) watch Super Nanny. I don't have time to provide links to you, but here's one. It can be done. I've dealt with all sorts of kids and sometimes you do have to 'experiment' to find what works. This teacher did no harm except expose this boy to how his classmates truly felt...it's better that it's done earlier rather than later.
All I know is that my children do not have a vote about what happens in my jurisdiction (home.) I listen to their opinions and then make the best decisions for them because I love them and know what is best. 5-year-olds should not be allowed to judge another human being based on behavior they do not understand or by which they are even offended. They are not even at a level to be evaluating the circumstances or the consequences, and the teacher apparently wasn't either.
The child will be fine, yes. But this was wrong on so many levels, I could debate it for days. I have already thought of so many arguments about how damaging this was for even the classmates, that I just don't have the time to type it all up. If I thought it would make a difference, I would, but I think we should just agree to disagree.
I do respect your opinion.
What this teacher did was attempt an intervention, having the students all gang up on the kid and tell them how his actions make them feel. Since she was in attendance at his IEP, she knows he is being diagnosed for Asperger's or possibly high functioning Autism, and if she was properly trained, she also knows that a primary behavior of both conditions is social awkwardness. Now, perhaps there are many 5yo kids who can deal with an intervention and take from it something constructive to help them develop better social skills, but no one who knows anything about Asperger's would suggest such a therapy for a 5yo diagnosed with Asperger's, or one who could potentially have it. Before such an unusual action would be approved to take place, it would need to be discussed at IEP and agreed to by all parties, which would include the mother. Reading between the lines of the articles I've read on this story, I'm not sensing that the mother agreed to attempt this.
No matter what other justification you or the teacher might throw out there, this trumps all.
FYI - My son has Asperger's, is seven years old, and is just completing 1st grade in a public school.
No matter what other justification you or the teacher might throw out there, this trumps all.
FYI - My son has Asperger's, is seven years old, and is just completing 1st grade in a public school.
All I know is that my children do not have a vote about what happens in my jurisdiction (home.) I listen to their opinions and then make the best decisions for them because I love them and know what is best. 5-year-olds should not be allowed to judge another human being based on behavior they do not understand or by which they are even offended. They are not even at a level to be evaluating the circumstances or the consequences, and the teacher apparently wasn't either.
The child will be fine, yes. But this was wrong on so many levels, I could debate it for days. I have already thought of so many arguments about how damaging this was for even the classmates, that I just don't have the time to type it all up. If I thought it would make a difference, I would, but I think we should just agree to disagree.
I do respect your opinion.
I beg to differ. You're heart is in the right place, your mind is open, it doesn't take a leap of faith to understand. Children are VERY capable of judging others behavior. For instance, if a 4 year old wants a cookie, and says, "I WANT A COOKIE." An adult can validate that behavior by giving the child a cookie. They try it with different stuff: I want some ice cream. I want a bike. I want to watch TV. What's missing here is, of course, the word 'please'. You, as an adult, can reinforce the need for 'please' or not. If you don't demand a please, you'll never get one....this can have FAR reaching consequences in your child's life....is that how you want them to leave the nest...looking for a job, without the common decency to say please and thank you? This is a very simple example....basically, ever since kids are born, they evaluate their environment...crying when hungry, wet, tired, sick; happy and smiling when they want to play...there's a reason they do that: they've evaluated their environment and they will do the things they experimented with (crying, laughing, smiling) to get action for a problem.
Now, in terms of social interaction, it's best to deal with the issue. It's NEVER easy, as we all know. At work, my ideas can get voted down just as easy as the next person's and there's reasons, it's up to me to 1) first KNOW that there are other reasons (as the boy Alex found out) and 2) be able to process and understand those reasons...even if it hurts emotionally. To solve a conflict, we need input from all involved...whether it hurts our feelings or not, it has to be brought out into the open and dealt with...and it gets easier the more times you do it. But, if you're just starting to deal with conflict, it's TONS easier to NOT deal with it. I applaud the teacher for at least trying to deal with the issue directly. She could've just as easily sat him in a corner or out in the hall without a vote and Alex would not have learned much except he can piss off his teacher....It was MUCH more valuable information to Alex that he's pissing off his teacher AND 14 of his classmates. Keep in mind that all of this occurred BEFORE his diagnoses....that's of utmost importance to the story. It's an important lesson all the way around. We judge other people, and they judge us. You CANNOT deny this fact.
But you know what....this is all off-topic because the other children were not judging Alex...they were stating what he does that they didn't like....
Two problems here.
1) An IEP won't take place until after his diagnoses. and
2) An intervention wouldn't be conducted by the classroom teacher, but by a trained special educator.
Edit:
The most common expression of autism and asperger is the inability to read the social body language and facial expressions of others. Having students put their concerns into words might be considered an effort to communicate their social concerns in a manner that doesn't involve reading the signs that a child with these social challenges can't pick up on.
I beg to differ. You're heart is in the right place, your mind is open, it doesn't take a leap of faith to understand. Children are VERY capable of judging others behavior. For instance, if a 4 year old wants a cookie, and says, "I WANT A COOKIE." An adult can validate that behavior by giving the child a cookie. They try it with different stuff: I want some ice cream. I want a bike. I want to watch TV. What's missing here is, of course, the word 'please'. You, as an adult, can reinforce the need for 'please' or not. If you don't demand a please, you'll never get one....this can have FAR reaching consequences in your child's life....is that how you want them to leave the nest...looking for a job, without the common decency to say please and thank you? This is a very simple example....basically, ever since kids are born, they evaluate their environment...crying when hungry, wet, tired, sick; happy and smiling when they want to play...there's a reason they do that: they've evaluated their environment and they will do the things they experimented with (crying, laughing, smiling) to get action for a problem.
Now, in terms of social interaction, it's best to deal with the issue. It's NEVER easy, as we all know. At work, my ideas can get voted down just as easy as the next person's and there's reasons, it's up to me to 1) first KNOW that there are other reasons (as the boy Alex found out) and 2) be able to process and understand those reasons...even if it hurts emotionally. To solve a conflict, we need input from all involved...whether it hurts our feelings or not, it has to be brought out into the open and dealt with...and it gets easier the more times you do it. But, if you're just starting to deal with conflict, it's TONS easier to NOT deal with it. I applaud the teacher for at least trying to deal with the issue directly. She could've just as easily sat him in a corner or out in the hall without a vote and Alex would not have learned much except he can piss off his teacher....It was MUCH more valuable information to Alex that he's pissing off his teacher AND 14 of his classmates. Keep in mind that all of this occurred BEFORE his diagnoses....that's of utmost importance to the story. It's an important lesson all the way around. We judge other people, and they judge us. You CANNOT deny this fact.
But you know what....this is all off-topic because the other children were not judging Alex...they were stating what he does that they didn't like....
By judging I meant judging a person based on a behavior, not judging a behavior, totally different. I think your arguments are valid, but in this setting. Alex felt ostracized, and the children were siding with the teacher because that is what students tend to do, especially at this age. I simply do not think your arguments on this issue can apply to this situation because of the age of the children. In the children's eyes and in Alex's eyes, I assure you, it was all about judgment. The teacher could have used disciplinary actions without allowing a judgment to occur.
Are we done yet?
According to the story linked in the first post of this thread, IEP meetings, attended by this teacher, started in February. You don't start IEP and discuss a possible diagnosis of Asperger's without being aware of the behavioral issues which are a prime indicia of the condition. The teacher knew all of this and chose a course of action that was inappropriate. There is no excuse for her behavior, and no valid reason she is not at least facing some type of disciplinary action.
inho
While I do understand the significance of the diagnosis, I maintain that this was not in any way a proper method of handling this situation even with a so-called "normal" child.According to the story linked in the first post of this thread, IEP meetings, attended by this teacher, started in February. You don't start IEP and discuss a possible diagnosis of Asperger's without being aware of the behavioral issues which are a prime indicia of the condition. The teacher knew all of this and chose a course of action that was inappropriate. There is no excuse for her behavior, and no valid reason she is not at least facing some type of disciplinary action.
inho
I agree with you completely. I was merely granting the possibility that there may be some 5yo children who might be able to handle the situation and actually gain from it. I don't personally know any such kids, though.
Sorry, I should of just made a new post instead of editing:
The most common expression of autism and asperger is the inability to read the social body language and facial expressions of others. Having students put their concerns into words might be considered an effort to communicate their social concerns in a manner that doesn't involve reading the signs that a child with these social challenges can't pick up on.
On another note, I have to say that I've been getting help on my posts. My knowledge is limited with dealing with the various 'diseases/disorders/etc'. I have enlisted the help of my loving wife, teacher of 14 years, Bachelors, Master, and PhD in education. If any of you really have problems with what I've been saying, you're going against 11 years of college education and what's being taught and researched there. I only hope that I've provided some insight and some fun discussing this issue with you all. I've enjoyed it.
Peace, out.
By all means, peace man!Sorry, I should of just made a new post instead of editing:
The most common expression of autism and asperger is the inability to read the social body language and facial expressions of others. Having students put their concerns into words might be considered an effort to communicate their social concerns in a manner that doesn't involve reading the signs that a child with these social challenges can't pick up on.
On another note, I have to say that I've been getting help on my posts. My knowledge is limited with dealing with the various 'diseases/disorders/etc'. I have enlisted the help of my loving wife, teacher of 14 years, Bachelors, Master, and PhD in education. If any of you really have problems with what I've been saying, you're going against 11 years of college education and what's being taught and researched there. I only hope that I've provided some insight and some fun discussing this issue with you all. I've enjoyed it.
Peace, out.
It has indeed, been enjoyable. Good debate on the 'net rarely occurs without devolving into rancorous and insulting flamewars.
Maybe it is, and disciplinary action should be taken in regards to the principal's seeming inability to handle the situation, or if necessary the school board.
I most certainly am not. I don't care what the reasons for the child's behaviour are, whether he is wretched or not, nor do I care if the parents have blown their "side" of the story out of proportion. Even the actions listed here are simply unacceptable. The teacher should be a reasoned adult and handle the situation as a reasonable adult should, which would never involve some kind of ridiculous reality gameshow style vote-off, or as it has been termed, an "intervention".
If the parents were not adequetely disciplining the child or if they were unwilling to supply the special needs care the boy may have needed, then they are certainly responsible for their failures.
If the principal failed to adequetely deal with the situation then he is certainly responsible for his failure.
If the school board has not provided the principal and guidance counseillors with the tools necessary (or has hired subpar individuals to fill those roles), then they are responsible for that failure.
None of these failures, even compounded, excuses a lapse of judgement on behalf of the teacher. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and judgements, and regardless of the failures of all other parties involved, the teacher certainly did not exercise reasonable judgement. Poor judgement is poor judgement, whether in an environment of fools or scholars.
Am I satisfied?
HELL NO!!
I was interested in seing what they would come up with, because it sounded pretty damn nasty, and this just confirms it. This woman is a sociopath. She's not just unfit to teach young kids, she's unfit to have any position of authority over others. She's unbalanced, and needs to be kept away from any kind of active contact with people, because she is obviously someone who enjoys mindf*cks to a chilling degree.
Yeah, not to be insulting, perish the thought. practically every post youve written in this thread is an insult to justice, good sense and humanity.
Leave it alone mate. you obviously can't tell your @rse from your elbow in child development, so stop messing with things as are beyond you.
HELL NO!!
I was interested in seing what they would come up with, because it sounded pretty damn nasty, and this just confirms it. This woman is a sociopath. She's not just unfit to teach young kids, she's unfit to have any position of authority over others. She's unbalanced, and needs to be kept away from any kind of active contact with people, because she is obviously someone who enjoys mindf*cks to a chilling degree.
Yeah, not to be insulting, perish the thought. practically every post youve written in this thread is an insult to justice, good sense and humanity.
Leave it alone mate. you obviously can't tell your @rse from your elbow in child development, so stop messing with things as are beyond you.
It has indeed, been enjoyable. Good debate on the 'net rarely occurs without devolving into rancorous and insulting flamewars.
roisin and mac said:
Well, bummer. So much for that.
My request for a way this should of been handled still hasn't been answered...any teachers out there care to chime in? The kid has been sent to the office numerous times and obviously didn't spend enough time there---the teacher nor the class was ready for him to return, he completely disrupts class, has social problems that involve not being about to read body language, and, since he is 5, he can't be left alone... The only thing I don't want to hear is "Well, the way she did it ISN'T the way." I want something constructive, please.
You get the picture. This child is a special case...there are failures at all ends of the spectrum, but the only thing anybody is calling for is to hang the teacher. Teachers are not NASA test pilots, they can crack under pressure just like you or I. I see a teacher who has dealt with this student all year...disruptive every day, and nothing she does seems to work. The teacher is backed into a corner. One mistep like this shouldn't ruin a career. What about all the other children in her class that are learning from her? Do we throw out the baby with the bath water?
While I see what you're saying, this was bigger than merely a mistep. It was a huge f*** up. If the situation was truly getting that unmanageable, she should have taken other steps first.
First off, we're only getting one side of the story. We don't know what actually happened leading up to 'the vote'. Maybe the boy asked for it?!?
I'm not satisfied. You don't put any kid of any age up for a public airing of grievances by their peers in school. If the child is that big of a disruption, you bring in the parents and principal discuss methods that might be used to keep them behaving at school. If no suitable methods are available or none of them work and the child is still a huge disruption suspensions and expulsions are options but you don't let the students in a class decide on the punishment at any age.
School will turn into a vindictive popularity contest soon enough we don't need to have the adults in charge encouraging this behavior early in their education.
Finally! Something constructive!! Thank you, thank you!
Though, I disagree with only one point: the public airing of grievances. This is something that is VERY important in dispute resolution. Kids, or anyone for that matter, would never be able to settle grievances without a public airing of the problems.
I agree with it when it's a one on one airing, or at least an environment where the accused has a chance to defend themselves against the attacks. But to put any student in front of the class for the others to rally against without a path for his rebuttal was a very poor decision on the part of the teacher. Could you imagine if court cases were set up so that only the accuser could bring in witnesses? Very few of the accused would ever win a case.
There were better ways to handle this and the teacher should be reprimanded if not fired for taking this course of action, given the ages of the kids makes it even less excusable.
School officials are there to provide rules and discipline, it is not the students job to vote on disciplinary action, if it were High School would be several steps closer to Hell for many, many students.
Without knowing the whole story, I can only assume that she tried other steps. I only understand a vague representation of how the school system works, and it goes like this: the parent is always right.
As for a major f*** up, I disagree. The vote was not a good idea and shouldn't have happened. Some say that this will emotionally scar the kid for life because of this improper social action....but on the other hand, the kid does not understand what is a proper social action. To me, a major F-up would result in injury or loss of life. Then again, I'm from the "sticks and stone will break my bones, but words will never hurt me" era.
Here's a real life example:
When I was in 8th grade, a girl was corrected on a sentence with the teacher saying: "You forgot your period." Another boy student snickered because he read into it as a comment on her menstrual cycle. The teacher picked up on this and put her foot on the front of his desk and gave it a shove. The boy was caught off guard as the desk hit him in the stomach. Witnessing the whole incident, I knew he wasn't ~really~ hurt. There may have been a little pain, but the most pain came from his hurt ego of getting busted. So, we have the boy and the teacher acting inappropriately. My father called the teacher to get the story. The teacher apologized and said that she was going through her period and she didn't think before she acted. I put this as something comparable to the OP's story. The teacher was reprimanded by parents and principal...but not fired or reassigned. In my opinion, it was a good thing. To this day, she remains my favorite teacher because she taught me things that you won't find in text books, essentially, a lot about how to carry myself socially. She had a bad day, she apologized and life went on. I hope that people can only forgive others mistakes like they did back then.
maybe the kid was a jerk?
Personally I think it's kind of sad that one can read this far in the thread before we find a single person that isn't prepared to string up this teacher by her thumbs when we don't even know what actually happened.
Asperger's is a very controversial diagnosis, as is autism. For every 100 parents who think their kid is autistic or has Asperger's there are maybe 10 who actually have anything other than a bad upbringing. The only people I have known that would be card-carrying members of the Asperger's society, (sort of speak) have argued very strongly with me to the effect that Asperger's doesn't even exist (and I believe them more than all the worrying overprotective mothers).
What if this kid is just a pain in the ass? He screams every time his mother takes him to school now, and as a result he will never have to go to school again (according to her). Sounds to me like this kid has his mother firmly in control. An alternative explanation could be that this kid is just fond of (and habitually gets) his own way pretty much all the time. Maybe it's for real, but we certainly don't *know* that the kid is unable to act normally, and learning how to act normal is one of the major goals of elementary school.
Personally, I think that if the kid is repeating "I am not special" over and over to himself, then half the job of education is already done. Nothing poisons a kids relationship to the world faster, and makes them less equipped to deal with life as we know it than all that "you're special" nonsense.
My God, THANK YOU for posting this.
Personally I think it's kind of sad that one can read this far in the thread before we find a single person that isn't prepared to string up this teacher by her thumbs when we don't even know what actually happened.
Asperger's is a very controversial diagnosis, as is autism. For every 100 parents who think their kid is autistic or has Asperger's there are maybe 10 who actually have anything other than a bad upbringing. The only people I have known that would be card-carrying members of the Asperger's society, (sort of speak) have argued very strongly with me to the effect that Asperger's doesn't even exist (and I believe them more than all the worrying overprotective mothers).
What if this kid is just a pain in the ass? He screams every time his mother takes him to school now, and as a result he will never have to go to school again (according to her). Sounds to me like this kid has his mother firmly in control. An alternative explanation could be that this kid is just fond of (and habitually gets) his own way pretty much all the time. Maybe it's for real, but we certainly don't *know* that the kid is unable to act normally, and learning how to act normal is one of the major goals of elementary school.
Personally, I think that if the kid is repeating "I am not special" over and over to himself, then half the job of education is already done. Nothing poisons a kids relationship to the world faster, and makes them less equipped to deal with life as we know it than all that "you're special" nonsense.
I respect your point. It was a very one sided process, which, giving the teacher the benefit of the doubt was a more extreme measure to deal with the problem. As for a court case where only the accuser can bring witness in, check out Asset Forfeiture. But that's off topic from this thread.
I will agree with a reprimand, but not a firing. I'd need more documented issues with this teacher than just one. Even California has a criminal 3 strikes you're out law. This is just one strike.
J
jmadlena
Guest
This is the kind of comment that angers me. That comment has no place in this conversation, and adds nothing of value.
Again, just to point it out ...
You don't actually *know* that this is what happened.
For all anyone here knows, the teacher could have been attempting exactly that kind of dispute resolution referred to. there could have been both plusses and minusses discussed. At best the mother sounds like a very overprotective sort.
Personally, I am still amazed at some of the things that people are saying about the teacher. Some of us *know* that she is "unbalanced" and "evil" apparently and because of her malicious intent (because of course we can read her mind as well) she should be fired of course.
I work in the education field myself and I can tell you that most school teachers (especially elementary teachers) are neither geniuses nor overly trained. Most training consists of doing the job itself with a little guidance at first and then just winging it on your own. This is not a "rocket science" kind of job with hard rules and so forth.
In fact, while there are very few geniuses in school teaching and academic requirements are sort of minimal, the one thing you can usually count on is that the person going into teaching is doing it because they love kids and actually like helping them out by teaching them etc. It's a truly rewarding experience and people generally become teachers because they are good with people and kids, not because they are not.
For all these reasons, I find it hard to believe that this teacher maliciously and determinedly did this thing in the first place. the one most likely to be deceptive and to have an agenda is still the mother, not the teacher.