5 year old "voted out of class" by classmates

[atszyman]

Again, just to point it out ...

You don't actually *know* that this is what happened.

We don't?

Teacher's side

Portillo told the officer she asked Alex to join her at the front of the class.

“She said she then asked him to listen to what the children didn’t like about the things he did, and she asked him how it made him feel,” the report said. “She said at this time, ‘We polled the class’ to see how his peers felt about his return at that time.”

Alex was voted out by a 14 to 2 margin.

I'm satisfied. Are you?

Sounds to me like the only rebuttal chance he had was "how does this make you feel?"

Taking the kids one on one and dealing with the conflicts as they occur is one thing but to have the entire class gang up like that is a bit extreme. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt assuming this was the first time something like this has happened. I've seen teachers quit over one problem student, my mother (second grade teacher) has heard most obscenities out of the kids mouths along with some physical assault (kicking). There should be some reprimand and possibly probationary period, maybe not firing at this point.

I do understand that there are way to many parents these days who want the TV, internet, video games and schools to raise their children, and will defend their little angels until the end of time because they can do no wrong. I'm determined not to be one of those parents, and three years (2 kids into it) I'm not one of them yet. And I can only imagine the frustration teachers can face when these parents refuse to believe that their child is not as perfect as they think, especially if they get little or no backing from the administration. If that is the case here I might be willing to cut the teacher more slack but unfortunately if the administration is not backing her she's going to be in big trouble.

 

[crazytom]

Sounds to me like the only rebuttal chance he had was "how does this make you feel?"

Taking the kids one on one and dealing with the conflicts as they occur is one thing but to have the entire class gang up like that is a bit extreme.

Given that the kid affected the entire class and their ability to learn, a group setting could be considered appropriate.

His rebuttal could have been: "I feel like Joe was lying, I don't eat boogers. I feel Jane is being mean to me for no reason. I feel like all of you hate me." etc. He was given a chance to state his case like all the other kids.

I can hear the teacher saying in a tender voice, "Alex, we've shown you that we're not ready for you to come back into class unless you can behave properly. You need to leave the class now and we will have you return when we're ready, and after you've had time to think about your behavior." Which is nothing like the vision that most people have which is: Alex, the tribe has spoken. Grab your stuff and head out....loser.

 

[redwarrior]

Given that the kid affected the entire class and their ability to learn, a group setting could be considered appropriate.

His rebuttal could have been: "I feel like Joe was lying, I don't eat boogers. I feel Jane is being mean to me for no reason. I feel like all of you hate me." etc. He was given a chance to state his case like all the other kids.

I can hear the teacher saying in a tender voice, "Alex, we've shown you that we're not ready for you to come back into class unless you can behave properly. You need to leave the class now and we will have you return when we're ready, and after you've had time to think about your behavior." Which is nothing like the vision that most people have which is: Alex, the tribe has spoken. Grab your stuff and head out....loser.

Ok, I wasn't going to get back into this, but I have to make one point here.

This boy is 5! I doubt very seriously, no, make that I am sure, that he does not have the self-confidence to defend himself in front of a lynching headed by the teacher! Hell, I don't know if I would, and I'm 41! The image you describe is not one that would take place in a classroom of children this age.

 

[crazytom]

Ok, I wasn't going to get back into this, but I have to make one point here.

This boy is 5! I doubt very seriously, no, make that I am sure, that he does not have the self-confidence to defend himself in front of a lynching headed by the teacher! Hell, I don't know if I would, and I'm 41! The image you describe is not one that would take place in a classroom of children this age.

Please, please, look through this teacher resource on Conflict resolution.

Here's an excerpt from Be Strong, Be Mean, or Give In:

In these situations, children need to know that they have choices. They can go on the attack. They can stand up for their interests or convictions. Or they can give in, going along with the other person's request, even though they don't want to. Adults call these choices "aggression," "assertiveness," and "submission." With children, we speak of being mean, being strong, and giving in.

Although we're partial to assertiveness, there is no one right way to respond to the myriad of complex situations children (or adults) confront daily. Sometimes we'll agree to "give in" and let a friend join us even if we really want to be alone. We may see that the friend is feeling blue and needs some companionship; or perhaps the friend has a compelling reason for spending time with us now -- she's going away or has something important to tell us. Sometimes we may need to be very firm to get our point across to someone who just isn't getting it, and that person may experience us as mean.

There's a closer fit to the procedure that Alex's teacher took in Respecting Differences.

How do you solve conflict with your kids? Do you tell them "No, and that's final?" or "No, because I said so?" or do you give them reasons why you said No?

I'm glad you came back into the discussion. I respect your opinion, as long as you respect my odd desire to change your opinion!

 

[atszyman]

Please, please, look through this teacher resource on Conflict resolution.

Here's an excerpt from Be Strong, Be Mean, or Give In:

The only problem I have with that is it's not a 17:1 lopsided event headed by the ultimate authority figure in that room. In smaller groups this can work but when it's all against one with the teacher condoning the action very few people are equipped to handle that sort of situation. I doubt I would handle it well, much less a 5 year old.

There's a closer fit to the procedure that Alex's teacher took in Respecting Differences.

How do you solve conflict with your kids? Do you tell them "No, and that's final?" or "No, because I said so?" or do you give them reasons why you said No?

I'm glad you came back into the discussion. I respect your opinion, as long as you respect my odd desire to change your opinion!

That's a job for the teacher, admin, and parents to handle not for an authority figure to arrange a full class intervention for a 5 year old.

 

[redwarrior]

Please, please, look through this teacher resource on Conflict resolution.

Here's an excerpt from Be Strong, Be Mean, or Give In:



There's a closer fit to the procedure that Alex's teacher took in Respecting Differences.

First of all, let me say that I respect you and your opinion, however, I, living with a 6-yr-old, will very likely retain my opinion on this case!

Conflict Resolution was a lot of reading, and I must admit that I hardly read any of it. Please don't take that as my blowing you off, it's just 11:20pm and i'm tired, but I had some thoughts that I wanted to voice.
In Respecting Differences, however, I did read over, and the summary was this, "[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]Sometimes people think the same things we do and sometimes they don't. We can be friends even if we don't agree on everything."

Friends don't display you at the front of the class and tell you what is wrong with you and why you should not be there and then vote you out. Why would that be total idiocy for this case? Because these children are 5!! They have no idea what a friend is, much less how to treat one. My daughter is 16, is very loving and considerate, more so than most teens, and still struggles with this.

[/FONT]

How do you solve conflict with your kids? Do you tell them "No, and that's final?" or "No, because I said so?" or do you give them reasons why you said No?

That depends on the situation and the age of the child. My teenager is much more likely to engage in a conversation/debate, my son is more likely to get a "because I said so." He simply doesn't understand why I require him to be nice, polite, and considerate of other people. But I require it, whether he understands it or not.

 

[atszyman]

Please, please, look through this teacher resource on Conflict resolution.

And here's an excerpt from #4, Childhood Conflict.

When solving conflicts with young children you need to consider the following factors:

How much time you have.
How much the children will learn from this situation.
How important the problem seems to be to the children involved.
In deciding what to do, consider the following questions:

Which children are involved? What is the conflict about?
Is it a problem with a clear, immediate solution or is it more complex?
How upset or angry are they?
What do they need from you and each other to work out the problem?
Is there enough time to devote to the problem?
Can the children deal with the problem right away or do they need some time to calm down?
Is everyone in an appropriate place to hold the discussion?
Should the discussion be private or public?
If problems cannot be addressed right away, it is important for children to hear the reason and to be told that the discussion will take place at a specific time (e.g., after snack, when we get back inside).
Is it a difference over resources or a difference in opinions?
Is the problem one that recurs frequently or is it unique to the children involved?

Some discussions are best handled with only the children involved, especially when the conflict affects only them or is related to an immediate situation. For some children, airing a dispute in public may be too difficult. However, some problems, particularly those that involve experiences that are common to most children, provide an opportunity for group problem-solving. Some problems can also be handled privately and then discussed at a later date in more general terms.

Now I will be the first to point out that it says "for some children" but the teacher was aware that the child in question was going through some testing for determining if he was autistic in some way, which should have been enough to avoid the public airing of the dispute.

 

[crazytom]

First of all, let me say that I respect you and your opinion, however, I, living with a 6-yr-old, will very likely retain my opinion on this case!

I once thought the same way that you do. That small children can be strong armed into obedience. While it does work some of the time, it can make them feel trapped and unimportant. Opening up to them, having them share their views of a situation and talking to them like adults gives them a feeling of importance and a realization that their actions do have an impact on those around them...as opposed to being self-centered.

Conflict Resolution was a lot of reading, and I must admit that I hardly read any of it.

No problem. If you get time, I recommend it. There's a book called Positive Discipline by Dr. Jane Nelson. Previous to my son, I really didn't like kids. Most that I've run into were little sh*ts. Impolite, snotty, self centered, etc. I thought this book would be a bunch of psycho-babble hooey, but I read it anyway. The techniques early on were easy to grasp and they worked quite wonderfully. As my son aged, it became more difficult. I found myself reverting to strong arm techniques which just created two angry parties. Going back to the book and reading appropriate techniques really smoothed things out. Now, it's not always easy to break your own habits and sometimes you just don't have time to 'read the manual', but once you get the basics down, they apply in MANY situations...even with other adults. All I can say is, don't knock it until you try it.

That depends on the situation and the age of the child. My teenager is much more likely to engage in a conversation/debate, my son is more likely to get a "because I said so." He simply doesn't understand why I require him to be nice, polite, and considerate of other people. But I require it, whether he understands it or not.

This is where I believe you're dead wrong. Your 6 year old WILL understand why, if you can explain it appropriately...and that's the hard part...that's the part that requires experimentation to find what works.

I had a problem just a few months ago. My son would blame me for 'bad things' that would happen while we were playing a video game together. It down right ticked me off. After angrily telling him to knock it off, he kept up until I shut off the machine and yelled at him. He cried and said that I hated him and I took away the video game forever. It wasn't right for me to yell at him, but he really pissed me off. My wife had to sit us down and we told each other why we were mad at each other and derived what caused the problem and decided what the solution should be in the future. It was very hard for me to do that. To be honest, I felt I was being brought down to HIS level and I had no authority as a parent. But you know what? We haven't had a problem with it since then. When he starts to blame me for something, I say that we need to take a break...and he accepts that without argument. Does that sound like any 7 year old that you know? Stopping a fun video game without argument? I didn't think it was possible myself...

There have been two things that have made parenting easy and delightful:

1. A schedule/routine. Not one that's so strict that there can't be any deviation, but a structure all the same.

2. Positive discipline. It seems that there's a new challenge around every corner that takes me by surprise, but once I (or my wife) can figure out the proper methodology for dealing with it, it makes the entire 'stage' SOOOO much easier. It has the added benefit of being about to deal with others' children and it works on adults, too.

If I didn't have this new outlook, I probably would've flamed you many posts ago, but that would do neither of us any good. But, we're dealing with each other, in my mind, like conflicting parties should. I give my reasons, you give yours.

 

[crazytom]

The only problem I have with that is it's not a 17:1 lopsided event headed by the ultimate authority figure in that room. In smaller groups this can work but when it's all against one with the teacher condoning the action very few people are equipped to handle that sort of situation. I doubt I would handle it well, much less a 5 year old.

That's a job for the teacher, admin, and parents to handle not for an authority figure to arrange a full class intervention for a 5 year old.

I thought it was 14:2 vote.

BUT, developmentally, a 5 year old is still "me centered". If you've seen, or remember, interactions at that age, two friends can be yelling "I hate you." at each other and yet still play together on the playground 10 minutes later.

And, all in all, we don't know what the other children said about Alex...we only have Alex's story. Maybe a kid said he ate his boogers, maybe they said that he gets noisy sometimes. We just don't know. Everybody assumes the absolute possible worst....if you're preparing for a hurricane, that's a good thing. If you're judging someone (or their actions/intent), that wouldn't be justice.

 

[redwarrior]

Wow, crazytom, you're really committed to this discussion, aren't you? To have typed all that up, I certainly have to reply.

First of all, let me explain to you that I believe the Bible form of discipline, because I believe that my God knows what is right for me, I obey Him, and don't question. It's the same for my children, they are not allowed to question my decisions for them, most of the time!

I will explain my decisions to them and even debate with them, to the point that they can comprehend. My son is young, and does not understand why he has to wear a seat belt. I tried explaining it, he is stubborn, and still fought me, so I said, you will wear it because I told you to wear it, end of discussion. If he continues to try to engage me, he is punished.

Because my communication may be difficult for my children to understand, they are still required to do as I say. No negotiation is allowed. I'm extremely proud of my children, my son would be going into kindergarten this fall if he were in the public education system, but he will be starting 2nd grade, and was just moved up to the 2nd grade class at church, because his maturity level is so far above the 1st graders. I think it's because I require him to respect authority without question, and also to think for himself.

You said,

Your 6 year old WILL understand why, if you can explain it appropriately...and that's the hard part...that's the part that requires experimentation to find what works.

This takes us back to the issue of the 5-yr-old that was voted out of class. I doubt that the children involved in the vote were informed about what this meant to Alex and how it would effect him (please keep in mind that most children are not raised the way that you have raised your child, they are raised by television, school, and video games). I don't think the teacher even thought it through. Also, to expect a group of children this age to ponder this in their minds before they cast their vote is absurd! That's why this particular "solution" to this problem caused so many more problems. It was cruel and inhumane. Reasoning with a 5-yr-old child is like reasoning with an intelligent animal. All they know is cause and effect, how does this affect me. The children casting the vote were trying to please their teacher, and poor Alex's feelings were expendable.

 

[crazytom]

Wow, crazytom, you're really committed to this discussion, aren't you? To have typed all that up, I certainly have to reply.

First of all, let me explain to you that I believe the Bible form of discipline, because I believe that my God knows what is right for me, I obey Him, and don't question. It's the same for my children, they are not allowed to question my decisions for them, most of the time!

I will explain my decisions to them and even debate with them, to the point that they can comprehend. My son is young, and does not understand why he has to wear a seat belt. I tried explaining it, he is stubborn, and still fought me, so I said, you will wear it because I told you to wear it, end of discussion. If he continues to try to engage me, he is punished.

Because my communication may be difficult for my children to understand, they are still required to do as I say. No negotiation is allowed. I'm extremely proud of my children, my son would be going into kindergarten this fall if he were in the public education system, but he will be starting 2nd grade, and was just moved up to the 2nd grade class at church, because his maturity level is so far above the 1st graders. I think it's because I require him to respect authority without question, and also to think for himself.

You said,
This takes us back to the issue of the 5-yr-old that was voted out of class. I doubt that the children involved in the vote were informed about what this meant to Alex and how it would effect him (please keep in mind that most children are not raised the way that you have raised your child, they are raised by television, school, and video games). I don't think the teacher even thought it through. Also, to expect a group of children this age to ponder this in their minds before they cast their vote is absurd! That's why this particular "solution" to this problem caused so many more problems. It was cruel and inhumane. Reasoning with a 5-yr-old child is like reasoning with an intelligent animal. All they know is cause and effect, how does this affect me. The children casting the vote were trying to please their teacher, and poor Alex's feelings were expendable.

Yes, I am committed to this discussion. It's my personal mission to convince you to be more open and forgiving. We live in a very diverse society. Not everyone lives by the Word. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Bible doesn't teach tolerance?

First of all, if this were my child, they would've put me in jail for assault.
The teacher should lose her job at least, and I think should be prosecuted.

And the mother should have belted the teacher right then and there, that's where she missed it.

Are you the Eye for an Eye disciplinarian or a Forgive as Your Lord Forgives?

Either way, your sense of justice doesn't fit your stated beliefs. An E4E would remove the teacher from the class for the same amount of time as Alex was removed, state that she had been voted out in front of her class, and allowed to return when the class was ready....I'd guess for about 30 minutes max.

To Forgive...do I really need to explain this? This is awfully off topic. But I guess I don't really understand why you have all this anger for this one teacher, yet are a follower of God. By your examples, if you ever made a mistake with your children, by your logic, you shouldn't be their parent. Am I too far off base? Teachers, like parents, are all about their children. They love them and are concerned for them just as much. Why can't you forgive one person for making a mistake?

 

[atszyman]

I thought it was 14:2 vote.

BUT, developmentally, a 5 year old is still "me centered". If you've seen, or remember, interactions at that age, two friends can be yelling "I hate you." at each other and yet still play together on the playground 10 minutes later.

And, all in all, we don't know what the other children said about Alex...we only have Alex's story. Maybe a kid said he ate his boogers, maybe they said that he gets noisy sometimes. We just don't know. Everybody assumes the absolute possible worst....if you're preparing for a hurricane, that's a good thing. If you're judging someone (or their actions/intent), that wouldn't be justice.

I have a 3 year old who often uses the "you're not my friend" defense with her friends I know how that works and how they are always playing together within minutes (shortly after tattling to the first available authority figure).

But that is a 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 interaction, 15 (counting the teacher) versus 3 is a huge difference, that's not a small disagreement, that's a lynching, especially when the authority figure is one of the 15.

 

[crazytom]

I have a 3 year old who often uses the "you're not my friend" defense with her friends I know how that works and how they are always playing together within minutes (shortly after tattling to the first available authority figure).

But that is a 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 interaction, 15 (counting the teacher) versus 3 is a huge difference, that's not a small disagreement, that's a lynching, especially when the authority figure is one of the 15.

It's also not a small problem they're dealing with. Alex, from my understanding, has been disciplined by being sent to the office numerous times, only to be returned without much progress into correcting the behavior (which could be the fault of the administration or the parent). How else would the teacher get the point across that Alex's behavior affects everyone in the class? It would require something like a private booth where the students are paraded in one after the other....both time consuming and IMO, harsher than what actually happened. Anyway, if it weren't for the 'vote' we'd never have heard about this story. That, in my mind, is the main issue here and I agree that it shouldn't have happened. But, I see no problems with anything that transpired before that point. It's something that we deal with every time we post on a forum. Any number of people can jump out and attack what you're saying....whether you like it or not, it's a big part of today's society and the sooner one can learn to deal with it, the better.

There's a stigma of the original story that still lingers. I've been trying to spin it to the exact opposite to give it balance. If you can look toward something between the original 'lynching' story and the rosy 'best case' story, you'll probably find the reality. While I wouldn't 100% agree with everything, I REALLY, REALLY don't believe that this (purported) outstanding teacher should lose everything that she's worked for in her life because of this one mistake. And to call it a lynching is pretty harsh. Last I knew, people died in lynchings....far different than being sent out of a class for the rest of the day.

I decided to take my son out of a preschool class because he was misbehaving and didn't understand why. I took him out in front of his other classmates. It was harsh, and it took me away from work, but ~I~ as a parent, was responsible. It turns out he really missed going to school and the incident didn't happen again. If Alex's mom would've stayed and talked with the teacher, I'm sure this conflict could've been resolved without the press that it got, too. But, the mom says she was kept in the classroom against her will by the teacher. I see that as being the teacher wanted to talk it out and work a solution, but the mom was too (pissed, adamant, stupid, stressed, pick your favorite adjective here) to stay and talk. If the teacher didn't care one iota, she would've let the mom leave and said, "Don't let the door hit you on the @ss on your way out." Instead, the mom hit the news and lawyer'ed up for the country's next frivolous law suit....how is that responsible parenting?

 

[Iscariot]

It's also not a small problem they're dealing with. Alex, from my understanding, has been disciplined by being sent to the office numerous times, only to be returned without much progress into correcting the behavior (which could be the fault of the administration or the parent). How else would the teacher get the point across that Alex's behavior affects everyone in the class? It would require something like a private booth where the students are paraded in one after the other....both time consuming and IMO, harsher than what actually happened. Anyway, if it weren't for the 'vote' we'd never have heard about this story. That, in my mind, is the main issue here and I agree that it shouldn't have happened. But, I see no problems with anything that transpired before that point. It's something that we deal with every time we post on a forum. Any number of people can jump out and attack what you're saying....whether you like it or not, it's a big part of today's society and the sooner one can learn to deal with it, the better.

There's a stigma of the original story that still lingers. I've been trying to spin it to the exact opposite to give it balance. If you can look toward something between the original 'lynching' story and the rosy 'best case' story, you'll probably find the reality. While I wouldn't 100% agree with everything, I REALLY, REALLY don't believe that this (purported) outstanding teacher should lose everything that she's worked for in her life because of this one mistake. And to call it a lynching is pretty harsh. Last I knew, people died in lynchings....far different than being sent out of a class for the rest of the day.

I decided to take my son out of a preschool class because he was misbehaving and didn't understand why. I took him out in front of his other classmates. It was harsh, and it took me away from work, but ~I~ as a parent, was responsible. It turns out he really missed going to school and the incident didn't happen again. If Alex's mom would've stayed and talked with the teacher, I'm sure this conflict could've been resolved without the press that it got, too. But, the mom says she was kept in the classroom against her will by the teacher. I see that as being the teacher wanted to talk it out and work a solution, but the mom was too (pissed, adamant, stupid, stressed, pick your favorite adjective here) to stay and talk. If the teacher didn't care one iota, she would've let the mom leave and said, "Don't let the door hit you on the @ss on your way out." Instead, the mom hit the news and lawyer'ed up for the country's next frivolous law suit....how is that responsible parenting?

I agree with you on the principle that something needed to be done, but you are still defending a largely indefensible position. Whatever the outcome or failures of others, this was not the correct way to handle the situation. All the good intentions in the world doesn't change that. Yes, the parents could have handled the situation better, but that's not an adequate defense of the teacher or the action the teacher took.

 

[crazytom]

I agree with you on the principle that something needed to be done, but you are still defending a largely indefensible position. Whatever the outcome or failures of others, this was not the correct way to handle the situation. All the good intentions in the world doesn't change that. Yes, the parents could have handled the situation better, but that's not an adequate defense of the teacher or the action the teacher took.

I believe we are saying the same thing. The vote may have been an inappropriate way to handle the situation, and there are failures at all ends (teacher, parent, school administration, etc.). (btw: where's the father?)

My concern is what people are saying needs to happen to the teacher. What do you propose, Iscariot? I can't find anything in your posts that support or oppose any type of disciplinary action concerning the teacher.

 

[redwarrior]

Yes, I am committed to this discussion. It's my personal mission to convince you to be more open and forgiving. We live in a very diverse society. Not everyone lives by the Word. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Bible doesn't teach tolerance?

Funny. My husband has been trying for years to keep me from being so open, forgiving, and tolerant! Anyway, this discussion is not about me, and you could not convince me to change if it were.

Are you the Eye for an Eye disciplinarian or a Forgive as Your Lord Forgives?

Either way, your sense of justice doesn't fit your stated beliefs. An E4E would remove the teacher from the class for the same amount of time as Alex was removed, state that she had been voted out in front of her class, and allowed to return when the class was ready....I'd guess for about 30 minutes max.

To Forgive...do I really need to explain this? This is awfully off topic. But I guess I don't really understand why you have all this anger for this one teacher, yet are a follower of God. By your examples, if you ever made a mistake with your children, by your logic, you shouldn't be their parent. Am I too far off base? Teachers, like parents, are all about their children. They love them and are concerned for them just as much. Why can't you forgive one person for making a mistake?

My initial reaction was anger, yes; if my child is attacked (which is what this was), I will fight to the death. That is the only situation in which I would allow myself to kill. Now, of course, this type of attack does not warrant death! But the teacher does need some sense knocked into her one way or another, and as an angry mother, my first reaction would've been to knock her on her ass! Believe me, that would not have hurt her nearly as badly as Alex was hurt.

We are all different, and I do respect your opinion. I do not hold anything against this teacher (while I don't believe she loves those children). She simply should not be teaching this age group. I'm sure if she values her profession and is sincere about it, she will learn from this. I just hope that she is caring enough to apologize to Alex and have the class do so as well, so that they can all put this behind them and go on to the next life lesson. And, if that happens, I doubt that we will hear anything about it from the media.

 

[atszyman]

It's also not a small problem they're dealing with. Alex, from my understanding, has been disciplined by being sent to the office numerous times, only to be returned without much progress into correcting the behavior (which could be the fault of the administration or the parent). How else would the teacher get the point across that Alex's behavior affects everyone in the class?

Well there was a failure on the teacher, parents, and administration if it was allowed to continue this far without any impact on the problem. How many parent/admin/teacher conferences had been called? Had they ever brought up the idea of suspension/expulsion if no improvement could be made? Putting him in front of the class for everyone to say what they didn't like about the things he did is not something that should be done for anyone under the age of 14 because they will usually degenerate quickly into personal attacks and a game of one-ups-man-ship with the students, and it should definitely not be arranged or condoned by the authority figures.

It's something that we deal with every time we post on a forum. Any number of people can jump out and attack what you're saying....whether you like it or not, it's a big part of today's society and the sooner one can learn to deal with it, the better.

Yes, but I'm not 5, the forums have age limits so that we don't do that to 5 year olds, and rarely are the attacks organized by the moderators into a mob vs a few battle. The moderators may participate in the debate, but they are not organizing the opposition.

There's a stigma of the original story that still lingers. I've been trying to spin it to the exact opposite to give it balance. If you can look toward something between the original 'lynching' story and the rosy 'best case' story, you'll probably find the reality. While I wouldn't 100% agree with everything, I REALLY, REALLY don't believe that this (purported) outstanding teacher should lose everything that she's worked for in her life because of this one mistake. And to call it a lynching is pretty harsh. Last I knew, people died in lynchings....far different than being sent out of a class for the rest of the day.

I do agree that there may be more to this story, and lynching may be too harsh of a word to describe it, but a mob organized by the authority figure is very harsh. If you get fired from a job for not getting along with your co-workers to the bosses take you into a conference room and allow the co-workers to say what they don't like about you're behavior, and then allow them to vote you out? If you're going to argue that we should reason with the children like we do with adults (albeit with simplified terms) we should give them the same respect we would give an adult in a similar situation. I would consider it extremely unprofessional if a boss looked to fire me in a similar manner and would probably seek some sort of compensation for such a humiliating display.

If the teacher has repeatedly asked the administration to work with her and the parents to resolve the situation and the ideas of suspension/expulsion have been brought up, then I can almost see where it would lead to desperate measures but I've yet to see any indication that there was a lack of administration support in handling the problem. If that is indeed the case I apologize for my harsh judgement, although I still think there are/were better ways to handle it.

I decided to take my son out of a preschool class because he was misbehaving and didn't understand why. I took him out in front of his other classmates. It was harsh, and it took me away from work, but ~I~ as a parent, was responsible. It turns out he really missed going to school and the incident didn't happen again.

Would you have been happy had your preschool instructor had allowed the class to all lay out what they didn't like about his behavior and voted him out of the class rather than call you in to take him home? There's a big difference between having them removed from the class because of behavior, and allowing the class to gang up and vote him out. Both are traumatic, but in your instance there was no authority condoned mob of his peers voting him out of the class.

If Alex's mom would've stayed and talked with the teacher, I'm sure this conflict could've been resolved without the press that it got, too. But, the mom says she was kept in the classroom against her will by the teacher. I see that as being the teacher wanted to talk it out and work a solution, but the mom was too (pissed, adamant, stupid, stressed, pick your favorite adjective here) to stay and talk. If the teacher didn't care one iota, she would've let the mom leave and said, "Don't let the door hit you on the @ss on your way out." Instead, the mom hit the news and lawyer'ed up for the country's next frivolous law suit....how is that responsible parenting?

If she tried to resolve it and met with only opposition from the parent it's time to involve the administration and bring the parent in. If they still refuse then suspension/expulsion get put on the table. Sometimes, that threat alone, is enough to finally get the parents attention and hopefully start to realize that school is not just a babysitter.

If this had been tried and the administration did not help in any way then that needs to be noted and I'm willing to cut the teacher some slack, although some sort of reprimand/probationary period should be enforced. If I were in a position to hire her at another school, I would certainly take her reports of an unsupportive administration into account as a mitigating circumstance were she to apply to my school.

 

[GFLPraxis]

not just that, the kid also has aspergers syndrome

As someone with Asperger's syndrome myself, this disgusts me.
I was the butt of ridicule through my school years because people with Aspergers simply don't natively understand basic body language and social concepts. We don't know if we're talking too much or blabbing about something no one cares about or if someone is annoyed at us.

The proper response is to try to help the kid to understand and shelter him somewhat from the bullying so he's not downhearted.

Not encouraging the kids to make fun of him, ridiculing him publicly in class and throwing him out of the classroom.

Unlike most disabilities, it is probably BEST for a kid with Asperger's syndrome, at least in the early years, to be exposed to regular public school. That's the best way they can ever learn about social conventions. They'll never have it down 100% but some can learn enough to mask their disability. But they require special attention from the staff and generally will be picked on viciously by the other kids. If the staff treats them as the problem, or even joins in on the ridicule, the poor kid will be miserable.


EDIT: I see there's been quite an argument in this thread before I join in. I'm not going to retread past comments but I would like to point out that while you're discussing this from a parenting perspective, if the kid does in fact have Asperger's syndrome he's NOT a standard 5 year old.
I can provide some perspective on that if needed.

 

[Iscariot]

I believe we are saying the same thing. The vote may have been an inappropriate way to handle the situation, and there are failures at all ends (teacher, parent, school administration, etc.). (btw: where's the father?)

My concern is what people are saying needs to happen to the teacher. What do you propose, Iscariot? I can't find anything in your posts that support or oppose any type of disciplinary action concerning the teacher.

In post #59, I posited that there were rules and regulations in place to deal with disciplinary action towards the teacher. I'm not going to pretend to know the correct course of action, but I should think it would involve sensitivity training and a suspension or something similar, and would of course depend on her existing record.

The reason I am focusing on the teacher and their role in this is because that's what the article is about, and that's the subject of this thread. The child's behaviour and the role of the parents is ancillary; it's the actions of the teacher that have been laid out. I agree that many of the suggested responses are knee-jerk, but I also think that by diverting focus to the children and their parents you are distracting and almost making excuses for the behaviour of the teacher.

 

[crazytom]

In post #59, I posited that there were rules and regulations in place to deal with disciplinary action towards the teacher. I'm not going to pretend to know the correct course of action, but I should think it would involve sensitivity training and a suspension or something similar, and would of course depend on her existing record.

The reason I am focusing on the teacher and their role in this is because that's what the article is about, and that's the subject of this thread. The child's behaviour and the role of the parents is ancillary; it's the actions of the teacher that have been laid out. I agree that many of the suggested responses are knee-jerk, but I also think that by diverting focus to the children and their parents you are distracting and almost making excuses for the behaviour of the teacher.

Yes, I completely agree. There should be rules and regulations in place. I believe there was a big failure here....on who's part, we don't exactly know. We know that Alex was disciplined that day by being sent to the office. Given that the teacher and class weren't ready for him to come back, that tells me he didn't spend much time there at all. I'd guess < 15 minutes. Now this next statement is another 'could happen' scenario: The teacher may have told Alex that they weren't ready to have him back in class and he may have asked "Why?" Given that this class of kids has been together for an entire year, there is a sense of community among them...they already know each others behaviors and mannerisms...one could argue that the airing of grievances was merely a community discussion....

As for the subject of the article, I'd hope that you'd agree that it was initially VERY one sided....just the Mom's side as interpreted by the reporter, therefor the parent is no longer ancillary, but primary to the discussion. The mom chose to handle the situation through the media rather than the school system....

One could also say that the teacher was disciplined at that point by not only having the situation brought in front of her peers, but the entire world. Turnabout is fair play, I suppose.

 

[crazytom]

As someone with Asperger's syndrome myself, this disgusts me.
I was the butt of ridicule through my school years because people with Aspergers simply don't natively understand basic body language and social concepts. We don't know if we're talking too much or blabbing about something no one cares about or if someone is annoyed at us.

The proper response is to try to help the kid to understand and shelter him somewhat from the bullying so he's not downhearted.

Not encouraging the kids to make fun of him, ridiculing him publicly in class and throwing him out of the classroom.

Unlike most disabilities, it is probably BEST for a kid with Asperger's syndrome, at least in the early years, to be exposed to regular public school. That's the best way they can ever learn about social conventions. They'll never have it down 100% but some can learn enough to mask their disability. But they require special attention from the staff and generally will be picked on viciously by the other kids. If the staff treats them as the problem, or even joins in on the ridicule, the poor kid will be miserable.


EDIT: I see there's been quite an argument in this thread before I join in. I'm not going to retread past comments but I would like to point out that while you're discussing this from a parenting perspective, if the kid does in fact have Asperger's syndrome he's NOT a standard 5 year old.
I can provide some perspective on that if needed.

I'm glad you joined the discussion. I would really like to know how you would want people to react to you if, for instance, you were talking too much. Does only one person need to tell you? If two or more tell you, do you feel attacked?

I'm also curious: When you were in school, what sorts of things did kids do that were hurtful? With your difficulty in reading body language, etc., when do you figure out that you're being ridiculed?

As a comment: the initial story indicates that Alex was ridiculed and made fun of, but that is the Mom's side. The teacher's side is this:

Portillo said she did this as she felt that if (Alex) heard from his classmates how his behavior affected them that it would make a bigger difference to him, rather than just hearing it from adults,” according to the report.

Now, if you could see it that way. If you were Alex, how would you perceive that impact?

 

[Macmaniac]

Haha. Democracy can be a B$^%

 

[crazytom]

Would you have been happy had your preschool instructor had allowed the class to all lay out what they didn't like about his behavior and voted him out of the class rather than call you in to take him home? There's a big difference between having them removed from the class because of behavior, and allowing the class to gang up and vote him out. Both are traumatic, but in your instance there was no authority condoned mob of his peers voting him out of the class.

If my son deserves that kind of attention to get the point across, then I would support it, but not without thoughtful criticism. I would prefer to sit down with the teacher and administration and work out a solution for future problems (if I wasn't available to yank him out of class). I would rather deal with the conflict head on than to pussyfoot around and call the media when things past the point of being way out of control.

But, I believe that being OVER protective is more damaging to a child than being 'under protective'. Being under protective allows the child to make and learn from their mistakes. Being over protective keeps them from learning how to deal with pain/frustration/disappointment/etc. until the apron strings are cut.....IMO.

If this had been tried and the administration did not help in any way then that needs to be noted and I'm willing to cut the teacher some slack, although some sort of reprimand/probationary period should be enforced. If I were in a position to hire her at another school, I would certainly take her reports of an unsupportive administration into account as a mitigating circumstance were she to apply to my school.

I'm glad you said that, I can only hope that others may be able to see that there is possibly some mitigating circumstances in this story. Thank you.

 

[Iscariot]

Yes, I completely agree. There should be rules and regulations in place. I believe there was a big failure here....on who's part, we don't exactly know. We know that Alex was disciplined that day by being sent to the office. Given that the teacher and class weren't ready for him to come back, that tells me he didn't spend much time there at all. I'd guess < 15 minutes. Now this next statement is another 'could happen' scenario: The teacher may have told Alex that they weren't ready to have him back in class and he may have asked "Why?" Given that this class of kids has been together for an entire year, there is a sense of community among them...they already know each others behaviors and mannerisms...one could argue that the airing of grievances was merely a community discussion....

That's all speculation that doesn't much line up with the teacher's version of events. Regardless, it wouldn't matter. Even if the kid was the incredible hulk, tearing his clothes off and peeing in people's boots, the response wasn't appropriate. And I don't mean that because of the reprecussions it could have on the child -- it's my opinion that the pretty evident parenting shortfalls have that base solidly covered -- but because the teacher is an adult with a responsibility to act in an adult and responsible matter.

As for the subject of the article, I'd hope that you'd agree that it was initially VERY one sided....just the Mom's side as interpreted by the reporter, therefor the parent is no longer ancillary, but primary to the discussion. The mom chose to handle the situation through the media rather than the school system....

Okay. Let's do the same kind of speculation that you did for the above. Maybe the mother is a single mother (based on the lack of mention of a father). She's working hard to make ends meet, but she doesn't have the kind of money to get Alex into therapy as much as he needs it, and her insurance company is giving her a difficult time of it. She's trying her best to juggle raising a potentially autistic child on her own and make ends meet, and she trusted the school board to help her. When Alex told her about the incident, she went both to the teacher and to the principal, neither of whom were particularly sympathetic, so as a last ditch attempt at helping her boy she sought media attention in the hopes that it would get the incident properly reviewed and get Alex the help he needed.

I doubt the plausibility of that, but it's the same kind of speculative judgement that you're making. Which is once again why the issue is the incident, and not what led to it. We can guess all day long about why and how. We have the what. And the what ain't right.

 

[atszyman]

If my son deserves that kind of attention to get the point across, then I would support it, but not without thoughtful criticism. I would prefer to sit down with the teacher and administration and work out a solution for future problems (if I wasn't available to yank him out of class). I would rather deal with the conflict head on than to pussyfoot around and call the media when things past the point of being way out of control.

So you wouldn't condone this course of action without prior knowledge and discussion. I doubt the mother was informed that this course of action might even be a possibility. Although the story does not indicate how often or how productive previous meetings with the mother, teacher, and administration had been if they had ever occurred. Why was the parent not offered the same courtesy you'd expect? Maybe the mother is overreacting in her retaliation but if the administration is a problem here and obstructed her efforts to confront it head on. It may have been working against the mother to protect the teacher limiting her options to the point where the media was one of the few places she could turn.

There's a lot we don't know on both sides of the issue. The actions taken by the teacher were out of line no matter what the context although I'm willing to cut the teacher and/or mother some slack depending on details we may never know.

But, I believe that being OVER protective is more damaging to a child than being 'under protective'. Being under protective allows the child to make and learn from their mistakes. Being over protective keeps them from learning how to deal with pain/frustration/disappointment/etc. until the apron strings are cut.....IMO.

I know that being overly protective is bad and I've seen it. But that goes both ways, overprotection is bad as is overreaching punishment. There's a happy medium to be maintained here and this went too far in one direction.