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64-bit chip? (merged)
- Thread starter beosound3200
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64-bit should help
First off, most UNIX virtual memory managers will map the file system into virtual memory, meaning the 64-bit will help access to the 16/32/64 GB file space on the phone.
There are more and wider registers helping computation.
Graphics is very computational and that was upped to 64-bit as well. In fact, all people complaining about lagginess should see improvements with 64-bit and the Infinity Blade 3 is a perfect example. Will you benefit all the time? The animations and file mapping should make those OS operations faster.
First off, most UNIX virtual memory managers will map the file system into virtual memory, meaning the 64-bit will help access to the 16/32/64 GB file space on the phone.
There are more and wider registers helping computation.
Graphics is very computational and that was upped to 64-bit as well. In fact, all people complaining about lagginess should see improvements with 64-bit and the Infinity Blade 3 is a perfect example. Will you benefit all the time? The animations and file mapping should make those OS operations faster.
Being spread by you.
Please do tell us how 64bit architecture can run 32bit code... please, all us developers would love to know, it'd save us the hassle of even bothering to write for 64bit.
The biggest misinformation is people claiming 64bit is faster... ludicrous.
So, even if it is just fluff that isn't nescasarry for today, why be so uptight about it. It's cool that they put a 64bit chip in there. If you had the resources and were in charge of a huge company like Apple, wouldn't you want to do something cool. Plus i've got a hunch that the 64bit isn't just for making apps run faster but more importantly Touch ID. IMO
Where did you get that "information"?
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/09/iphone2013-0150.jpg
OK OK, I take it back! I only read the stream and did not watch the live keynote. I read something that made it sound as though the transition will be immediate so I extrapolated wrong, my bad. Either case, will definitely be watching the keynote tonight.
It's funny. No need for 64bit on a phone but somehow there is a need for 5, 6, 7+ inch screens. Now there's no need for THAT on a phone.
Of course it can armv8 ISA Is a superset of the armv7 isa. It is exactly the same as all x64 cpus like core i7 runs 32 bit x86 code
If the 5s is half way to the 4gb limit of a 32bit OS, it makes sense to start having developers migrated to 64 bit now. It will take a couple of years for all apps to upgrade and by that time the hardware could be pushing beyond 4gb. The last two iPhones have doubled the RAM from the prior years model. At this rate an iPhone 6s or 7 could realistically have 6-8GB of RAM.
Another thing to keep in mind is that this gives Apple the opportunity to significantly alter the instruction set beyond just adding a few new OPs. The Xcode compiler will be optimized for this instruction set and this alone will lead to significant performance gains. Sure, this could have been done while retaining a 32bit design, but keep in mind that there is an overhead incurred every time CPU instruction sets changes. Every application needs to contain separate runtimes for all supported CPUs. That means all 64bit apps will contain some bloat for 32bit compatibility. It would have been short sighted for Apple to upgrade the instruction set without making the jump to 64bit. It would have caused application bloat and unduly burdened developers with more iterations to test.
In short, this is a forward looking change that will improve performance today through the enhanced instruction set, limit future run-time bloat and lay the required foundations for new hardware a few years down the road.
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I half agree with you. The direct benefits today are limited, but do you honestly think it is a good idea to wait on upgrading the OS to 64bit until AFTER the hardware requires it? There are phones with 2 and 3GB RAM available today. We are right on the verge of crossing the limits of 32bit. Now is a great time to lay the foundations so apps will be ready for the hardware that is only a few years down the road.
Another thing to keep in mind is that this gives Apple the opportunity to significantly alter the instruction set beyond just adding a few new OPs. The Xcode compiler will be optimized for this instruction set and this alone will lead to significant performance gains. Sure, this could have been done while retaining a 32bit design, but keep in mind that there is an overhead incurred every time CPU instruction sets changes. Every application needs to contain separate runtimes for all supported CPUs. That means all 64bit apps will contain some bloat for 32bit compatibility. It would have been short sighted for Apple to upgrade the instruction set without making the jump to 64bit. It would have caused application bloat and unduly burdened developers with more iterations to test.
In short, this is a forward looking change that will improve performance today through the enhanced instruction set, limit future run-time bloat and lay the required foundations for new hardware a few years down the road.
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I half agree with you. The direct benefits today are limited, but do you honestly think it is a good idea to wait on upgrading the OS to 64bit until AFTER the hardware requires it? There are phones with 2 and 3GB RAM available today. We are right on the verge of crossing the limits of 32bit. Now is a great time to lay the foundations so apps will be ready for the hardware that is only a few years down the road.
But those phones are Android phones...
No iPhone has ever had close to that yet... the iPhone 5S is rumored to have 1gb of RAM.
Unfortunately there is nothing official yet, but I have seen a lot of rumors suggesting that the A7 has 2gb. (Hey, this is mac rumors isn't it?)
But even if it has 1gb, what does that really change? You still get the improvements in the instruction set and Apple will be in a position with clean slate of 64bit legacy hardware for when 64bit does become required. It also opens the door for more powerful iOS devices. Remember, it wasn't the iPhone that got to 1gb first, the iPad 3 was the first iOS device to have that honor. An A7x is likely due in a month or two.
It is naive to think that 64bit support won't be an issue on iOS within 3 years.
Regardless of anything else, the move to 64bit has been rather poorly handled on every major platform so far. I IS a smart move to start the transition while they can still take their time.
Let's assume it is marketing fluff. Watch how fast Samesung jumps on this and the Touch ID concepts.
I don't know that much about these kinds of matters, but I do know a fair bit about photography and cameras. I say bravo to Apple for NOT just blasting out a 40MP camera in a 1/3.2" sensor. The features they added to the camera system (of course they are not new ideas) and the WAY they implement them is a general example of what makes Apple great. Carrying on this logic, I assume they have sound reasons for going to 64 bit and trust that it, in conjunction with the M7, will improve the overall experience. And there is already less talk of "lag" with iPhones than any Android phone.
I don't know that much about these kinds of matters, but I do know a fair bit about photography and cameras. I say bravo to Apple for NOT just blasting out a 40MP camera in a 1/3.2" sensor. The features they added to the camera system (of course they are not new ideas) and the WAY they implement them is a general example of what makes Apple great. Carrying on this logic, I assume they have sound reasons for going to 64 bit and trust that it, in conjunction with the M7, will improve the overall experience. And there is already less talk of "lag" with iPhones than any Android phone.
Code size isn't that important. A few images can take a lot more storage than the code of your application.
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Just like the 64 bit Intel processors, the 64 bit ARM processors run any 32 bit code without any change. And without any speed advantage.
And the 64 bit instruction set has twice the number of general registers, twice the number of vector registers, does vectorised double precision floating point for doubled speed, has instructions for encryption / decryption built in. Plenty of image and sound processing will be faster because Apple already has the code optimised for 64 bit processors (because that's what MacOS X uses). Then Apple added some clever tricks to Objective-C on 64 bit (like NSNumber objects not allocating any memory at all) that can be used on ARM as well. C++ std::string handling strings up to 22 characters with no memory allocation. Plenty of speed advantages.
If any of this were true everyone would be using 64bit OSes... but nope. 32bit Windows vs 64bit Windows is identical... same for OSX... same for everything.
The only reason 32bit code works on 64bit is due to emulation
Are you saying that moving to 64-Bit is a bad thing, Ashen?
Because that'd be pretty foolish. 64-Bit is capable of more, it makes sense for developers to start making 64-Bit apps sooner rather than later, Apple doing this will encourage them to do so, which will be better for the iOS platform in the long run.
And don't criticize 32-Bit performance on the A7 chip until it's actually been tested, maybe after it's been tested in length to see if the difference in performance is significant, then you'd have a valid point.
Because that'd be pretty foolish. 64-Bit is capable of more, it makes sense for developers to start making 64-Bit apps sooner rather than later, Apple doing this will encourage them to do so, which will be better for the iOS platform in the long run.
And don't criticize 32-Bit performance on the A7 chip until it's actually been tested, maybe after it's been tested in length to see if the difference in performance is significant, then you'd have a valid point.
Windozed is another ball of mud altogether. Win32 was written from the ground up for a 32 bit architecture. When 64 bits hit the streets, Microsoft slapped an emulation layer to make it "work".
64bit... won't really matter for the everyday user. The speed gains from the 5S will come from other aspects of the processor... NOT the 64bit... for the most part.
OpenGL ES 3.0 supports 64bit. Though I read a blogger that said it didn't and he's a developer... Dunno, anyone with more experience on this? Because if it's true, that means improved graphics performance. Cellphones, after all, are dominating the mobile gaming market now. Poor Nintendo and Sony...
But forget all of this. Let's focus on the real benefit of the 64bit processer: the future benefit. Apple is now primed and ready for a 64bit mobile market. And rest assured, it's going to happen now because there's no way that Samsung isn't going to make a 64bit phone. This also gives the possibility of an iPad with enough ram to make use of the 64bit platform. Appealing...
Why doesn't anyone mention the 120fps 720p video capability? That's pretty sweet to have in a cellphone. Not even all the action sports cameras have that function.
OpenGL ES 3.0 supports 64bit. Though I read a blogger that said it didn't and he's a developer... Dunno, anyone with more experience on this? Because if it's true, that means improved graphics performance. Cellphones, after all, are dominating the mobile gaming market now. Poor Nintendo and Sony...
But forget all of this. Let's focus on the real benefit of the 64bit processer: the future benefit. Apple is now primed and ready for a 64bit mobile market. And rest assured, it's going to happen now because there's no way that Samsung isn't going to make a 64bit phone. This also gives the possibility of an iPad with enough ram to make use of the 64bit platform. Appealing...
Why doesn't anyone mention the 120fps 720p video capability? That's pretty sweet to have in a cellphone. Not even all the action sports cameras have that function.
aside from addressing larger amount of ram, are there any other benefits?
the link i posted says that animations and transparencies would appear faster, which doesnt make sense
just like you, i thought the only difference between 32 and 64 bit is ram addressing, thats why im asking, any other benefits?
i mean, we have 1gb of ram now, is there a need for 64 bit computing?
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oh well, thats something
There are certainly MANY more improvements than just addressing more than 4GB of RAM---many situations have been covered in this thread---but some more....from Wiki----
"Some 64-bit programs, such as encoders, decoders and encryption software, can benefit greatly from 64-bit registers, while the performance of other programs, such as 3D graphics-oriented ones, remains unaffected when switching from a 32-bit to a 64-bit environment, pending the augmenting GPU or 'VPU?' that Apple is now adding....I can't remember exactly what they were calling that XPU for the camera/video capture improvements.
Some 64-bit architectures, such as x86-64, support more general-purpose registers than their 32-bit counterparts (although this is not due specifically to the word length). This leads to a significant speed increase for tight loops since the processor does not have to fetch data from the cache or main memory if the data can fit in the available registers.
Example in C:
int a, b, c, d, e;
for (a=0; a<100; a++)
{
b = a;
c = b;
d = c;
e = d;
}
If a processor only has the ability to keep two or three values or variables in registers it would need to move some values between memory and registers to be able to process variables d and e as well; this is a process that takes many CPU cycles. A processor that is capable of holding all values and variables in registers can loop through them without needing to move data between registers and memory for each iteration. This behavior can easily be compared with virtual memory, although any effects are contingent upon the compiler."
...and being Apple has been able to build/test/design and implement their compiler, the interaction between the CPU/GPU and RAM/NAND (for paging), 64bit processor may very WELL be a significant improvement in speed without the need (currently) to only take advantage of a 4GB+ RAM build.
Please see above. There is much more to 64 bit processing than 'just addressing more than 4GB of RAM'----MUCH more!
But a 32 bit processor. The last jump from 1-2GB of RAM on Android devices, including the Note2 (I'm a Note 1 owner) was a significant improvement in fluidity. The Note 1 is an absolute dog. It's slow as can be---we use it solely for business/Square transactions/signatures. I can't get out of the contract quick enough. RAM has significantly helped the 'Droid experience. iOS on the other hand operates extremely well on a GB of RAM. Both as the manufacturer of the device, architect of the SOC and developer of the OS---Apple has managed to release the absolute pinnacle of fluidity when it comes to phone operating systems. Again---Android has gotten much better, however...the iPhone is still the absolute king of fluidity, usability and stability. Sure---there are poorly coded apps but they're few and far between. I use both systems...and look forward to a Note 3...however, with the Note 4, if they continue to use Exynos and/or Snapdragon procs----the ability to utilize those 4GB of RAM will, in your words, necessitate the need for a 64bit SOC.
Apple doing it now, I'm sure has a reason....and not just....
....'Marketing Ploy'. You've obviously some make up work to do in order to understand how processing, especially SOC (a rather new breed of processing that Intel is madly trying to jump feet first into as it becomes more and more ubiquitous on everyday carry items----our smartphones) systems with their GPU and Apple's new Imaging processing unit work in unison. There's a reason Apple's engineers are making the switch to 64bit. Apparently the folks at Chair feel the same---as I/B 3 is playing FIVE times faster on the new architecture and it took them all of two hours to port the game, with Apple's tools from 32--->64 bits.
How do you know? Are you an SOC engineer? A real developer? Seems as though Chair WAS able to 'test' and 'optimize' with the 'hardware in place!' 64 bit is absolutely "new technology" when it comes to being used as an SOC in a cell phone bud!
Again----your 4GB infatuation has been addressed. You're on an Apple based forum...we're ALL Apple Crazies!!! Perhaps you should find a forum you're passionate about, no?
Already addressed and incorrect.
Did you watch the presentation? Hear how the folks @ Chair were able to compile 32--->64 bits in 2 hours? As well, I'm not sure I can remember a 32 bit program I've EVER not been able to NOT run on my current 64bit machines. Can you explain to us why it would be a hassle for you to compile your development with Apple's free development tools from 32-64bits?
Faster? Chair says I/B3 is playing FIVE times faster! Not that I'm attributing all of that speed increase to the 32-64bit increase but for some reason, again, I think you're wrong
Where did you hear that rumor? I've heard NO such rumor. Other than analyst guesses. We'll have to wait for a tear down by iFixit or some other system analyzer app. It's coming...but to me, as explained earlier----there's a definite benefit to Android with increased RAM. Apple...not so much. 1GB is excellent. Would a double RAM increase be welcomed? Of course! But to this point...it's not been necessary to continue to provide an absolutely fluent experience with the OS and apps optimized and built for iOS.
Didn't mean to go on that long...but there are SO many benefits to jump up to 64bits rather than acknowledgment of more than 4GB of RAM. This is a fascinating thread filled with guesses from folks without much processor knowledge. I'm sure there are plenty of extremely bright and knowledgable folks reading this thread just laughing....GUT laughing out loud. As well, I think we're in for a surprise with the speed of the 5s. Regardless of Geekbench and artificial benchmarks (where the iPhone 5 continues to hold its own...and actually still maintain a LEAD against the latest Snapdragon and Exynos processors), but in every day usage, camera speeds, rendering and editing in iMovie, Shazaming and updating your Facebook profile---pulling up an email or editing a song you just created in GarageBand.
I guess I don't understand your need to bend over backwards in an attempt to discredit the absolute genius that goes in to Apple's design of the SOC and it's delivery time after time of a pocket computer that supersedes the past iteration. Compared to what I was using when my wife and I were married 15 years ago, the iPhone 5 I'm currently carrying is significantly faster at EVERYthing! To me,
it's exciting to be a part of this time/era of technology....and SOOO in to it. If you're NOT in to it, why hang on with a bunch of folks that are?
Speaking of which---I'm absolutely blown away by so many of the ho hum responses to the 5s. We all KNOW what the Tick/Tock cycle with the (s) models is. It's no surprise....and they (Apple) definitely tend to get it right with the S Model.
J
@akdj : very interesting post, thank you.
In fact, i've been reading stuff about the 64 bits iPhone since tuesday and there seem to be a lot of misinformations and lots of debate between "wannabe expert", to the point where it is very hard to know which one is right.
The thing that seem to come out most of the time is that 64 bits computing is more efficient in the kind of calculations used in large images manipulations and biometric identifications like Touch ID, both which make lots of sense considering the new camera that do a lot of "images calculations" very quick each time you take a picture, and that it can take 120 720p images each seconds, and of course considering touch ID.
About the 4Gb of RAM and 64 bits, I read somewhere about the fact that embedded "system on a chip" like the one found in the iPhone need to address other thing on the chip in parallel to the RAM, for example the embedded memory used exclusively for touch ID in the A7 chip. Basically the argument is that on a desktop computer a 32 bit system can use up to 3Gb of RAM, but on a system like a phone, a 32 bit system is even more limited than that because it as other stuff to address. It's an interesting point, but honestly I have no idea how much of this is actually true. I'm really an "Amateur" on these matters.
In fact, i've been reading stuff about the 64 bits iPhone since tuesday and there seem to be a lot of misinformations and lots of debate between "wannabe expert", to the point where it is very hard to know which one is right.
The thing that seem to come out most of the time is that 64 bits computing is more efficient in the kind of calculations used in large images manipulations and biometric identifications like Touch ID, both which make lots of sense considering the new camera that do a lot of "images calculations" very quick each time you take a picture, and that it can take 120 720p images each seconds, and of course considering touch ID.
About the 4Gb of RAM and 64 bits, I read somewhere about the fact that embedded "system on a chip" like the one found in the iPhone need to address other thing on the chip in parallel to the RAM, for example the embedded memory used exclusively for touch ID in the A7 chip. Basically the argument is that on a desktop computer a 32 bit system can use up to 3Gb of RAM, but on a system like a phone, a 32 bit system is even more limited than that because it as other stuff to address. It's an interesting point, but honestly I have no idea how much of this is actually true. I'm really an "Amateur" on these matters.