A Song of Fire and Ice (Book Series, GRR Martin)

[Huntn]

Then, @Huntn, my friend, you (and I) will have to await the publication of the next volume in this saga, The Winds Of Winter. The wait might take some time.

Indeed, I am betraying no secrets if I let you know that this very evening I went to Mr Google to see if there were any recent announcements concerning this matter. There weren't, unfortunately.

Thanks for checking. I found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dance_with_Dragons
Jump to Road to publication - [edit]. Despite original, optimistic predictions of possible completion in late 2006, Martin completed the novel in April 2011, ...

Apparently it took him 6 years to publish this from 2005 for Feast For Crows. So at that rate it's only 2 more years for Winter to set in...

 

[Huntn]

I've been negligent in my reading duties, having just finished A Dance with Dragons on my vacation. I think what concerns me most, considering that the TV series has caught up to the book, is what will they show this coming season on Game of Thrones- the condensed version of the story that parallels the book series, I imagine.

 

[ravenvii]

I read the first three books and loved them.

Then waited for the Feast of Crows. And when it finally came out and I begun to read it... I realized I've forgotten half of what happened in the previous three books.

So rather than re-reading them, I decided to just wait until GRRM finishes the series, then read it from beginning to end.

 

[Huntn]

I read the first three books and loved them.

Then waited for the Feast of Crows. And when it finally came out and I begun to read it... I realized I've forgotten half of what happened in the previous three books.

So rather than re-reading them, I decided to just wait until GRRM finishes the series, then read it from beginning to end.

GRRM should include a recap in the next book. Food for thought:

Spoiler

Cercei is a questionable player except who will fill the power vacuum now that Kevin Lannister is finished?
Who is Vary's backing?
What about Peter Balish and his fantasy Catelyn girl Sansa?
There is the Dog and the Mountain.
Jon is questionable period. What part will the Night's Watch play in future events? They've got a whole passel of Wildlings South of the wall. What about them?
When will walkers appear south of the wall?
Tyrion and Mormont are sell-swords.
Will Daenerys ever get control of her dragons? When is she going to kick some butt with them? <- most frustrating aspect of this story IMO.
Stannis was last seen bogged down in a blizzard regardless of the raven Bolton sent Jon.
When is karma going to catch up with Ramsey Bolton?
Aegon Targarian with the Golden Company has landed in S.Westeros and is scooping up castles finally getting the attention of King's Landing.
Jamie is off with Brienne.
Samwell is doing exactly what?
Ayra and Bran, they better be involved in the conclusion of this story or they are just a distraction.

 

[Huntn]

Good ole live life to the fullest Melisandre. Carice van Houten has brought this character to life with a flare! What I don't get is how she could possibly not see this in the flames, unless it's part of a complicated plan the Lord of Light has hatched.

Ok, I've not read it in the book yet, so I'll be looking for the reason as to why a sizable portion of Stannis's forces desert him. It's not cause he burned his kid. I think I know that much. If you answer this question please use the spoiler tag. I won't read it, lol, until I'm finished with that part of the book.

If I did not say it, I did finish reading the books sometime back. Melisandre... The fantasy popped, somewhat. Thank you HBO.

I think since this is about the book to avoid spoiling the tv show thread, you can skip the spoiler tags here.

I only remembered John being stabbed in the book, and refused to believe he died. Either way...they didn't burn the body.

Annnnnnd...the book is no longer relevant in the grand scheme since they've gone so far off the rails.

And now we know... kinda. I assume this plot point will not be different when the book Winds of Winter finally is published. All of this going on in the show reminded me of character Cold Hands. Like a WW but not one, he guides Bran and fights the wrights to allow them to reach the cave of the Three Eyed Crow.

I'll still argue the Books are relevant as the original masterpiece source material. It will be interesting to see how much his book sales fall off from A Dance With Dragons. No doubt some ASOFAI fans will give up on the books, but I find myself frequently saying but what about... referencing the books, and with certainty I'll read them if and when they ever get published. Seeing a story first as media frequently prompts me dig up the book to read.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

And now we know... kinda. I assume this plot point will not be different when the book Winds of Winter finally is published. All of this going on in the show reminded me of character Cold Hands. Like a WW but not one, he guides Bran and fights the wrights to allow them to reach the cave of the Three Eyed Crow.

I'll still argue the Books are relevant as the original masterpiece source material. It will be interesting to see how much his book sales fall off from A Dance With Dragons. No doubt some ASOFAI fans will give up on the books, but I find myself frequently saying but what about... referencing the books, and with certainty I'll read them if and when they ever get published. Seeing a story first as media frequently prompts me dig up the book to read.

Even the best of media cannot give you all of the nuances, interior monologues, and detail of the books.

Now, on the topic of the TV adaptation of GoT (which I have not yet seen, although people whom I respect have spoken very highly of it), I sincerely and devoutly hope that there are not major plot deviations, or plot differences between the two formats, or, more to the point, I hope that the main themes, topics, character arcs, that the TV series hopes to address will have been run by G R R Martin so that the two forms do not end up in contradiction to one another.

You may recall that J K Rowling did give a few hints, pointers & suggestions when the movies were being made (as in on the lines of "you can do as you wish, but, just a suggestion, I would recommend that you don't drop or kill off that character - he has an important role to play in book 7").

However, as Rowling herself conceded, you can't put everything in a book into a TV series, or movie, as it is a different medium, and thus, intelligent pruning or trimming may be what is called for.

 

[Huntn]

Even the best of media cannot give you all of the nuances, interior monologues, and detail of the books.

Now, on the topic of the TV adaptation of GoT (which I have not yet seen, although people whom I respect have spoken very highly of it), I sincerely and devoutly hope that there are not major plot deviations, or plot differences between the two formats, or, more to the point, I hope that the main themes, topics, character arcs, that the TV series hopes to address will have been run by G R R Martin so that the two forms do not end up in contradiction to one another.

You may recall that J K Rowling did give a few hints, pointers & suggestions when the movies were being made (as in on the lines of "you can do as you wish, but, just a suggestion, I would recommend that you don't drop or kill off that character - he has an important role to play in book 7").

However, as Rowling herself conceded, you can't put everything in a book into a TV series, or movie, as it is a different medium, and thus, intelligent pruning or trimming may be what is called for.

I've said that watching GoT is like seeing an outline of the story where the facts are not even accurate, but overall the series stays true to the main narrative. I can't believe that 5 episodes in, Season 6 is all ready half way over.

Unfortunately there are what I would describe as some major plot deviations, not just characters left out, and complete sub-plots abandoned, at least one case where a character finds herself married to and abused by Ramsay Bolton, when in the books, he married a fake Sansa as a means of influencing the Northern houses and she was pretending to be Little Finger's nease. All for the sake of economy I suppose... We have to keep Sansa busy.

I agree that it's the rare movie that stays mostly true to the book, but Lord of the Rings did an admiral job, in fact IMO, an amazing job of staying true to the books. Now The Hobbit, I shudder at. We don't frequently have occurances where 10 hrs of additional material is inserted into a movie to make us go to the theater 3 times. In fact I did not.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I've said that watching GoT is like seeing an outline of the story where the facts are not even accurate, but overall the series stays true to the main narrative. I can't believe that 5 episodes in, Season 6 is all ready half way over.

Unfortunately there are what I would describe as some major plot deviations, not just characters left out, and complete sub-plots abandoned, but at least one case where a character finds herself married to and abused by Ramsay Bolton, when in the books, he married a fake Sansa as a means of influencing the Northern houses and she was pretending to be Little Finger's nease. All for the sake of economy I suppose... We have to keep Sansa busy.

I agree that it's the rare movie that stays mostly true to the book, but Lord of the Rings did an admiral job, in fact IMO, an amazing job of staying true to the books. Now The Hobbit, I shudder at. We don't frequently have occurances where 10 hrs of additional material is inserted into a movie to make us go to the theater 3 times. In fact I did not.

Agreed, the Lord of the Rings was a superb, and faithful (in both fact and spirit) adaptation of a well loved classic.

Agree, too, about The Hobbit; one powerful movie - properly made - would tell that story perfectly well; it doesn't require three; good grief, I read that book in one night.

Re GoT, I had read that about Sansa and her marriage and how the books and series treat it differently. As it happens, I have read the books, although it is four years since I have done so, and remember Sansa having been obliged to pretend to be Littlefinger's niece, and Ramsey Bolton marrying a fake Sansa in order to acquire legitimacy with the northern houses. Not sure how such storylines can be reconciled.

However, I am more forgiving of this in fiction than in fact; in fiction, you sin, or err, against logic, (or other versions); in history, you sin, or err against known fact, and this can complicate things when unexpected consequences occur down the tracks.

An especially egregious example was the short cut the TV show the Tudors took with Henry VIII's family; in reality, he had two sisters, one of whom married the King of France, and one of whom married the King of Scotland.

The producers of The Tudors decided that audiences might find all of this a little complicated and so decided to reduce the two to one, by condensing the two of them into one combined Tudor princess, but had a lot of explaining of the inexplicable to do later on when the story of Mary Queen of Scots came to be told.

 

[ThisBougieLife]

So...when's the sixth book coming out?

I lost interest in the TV series after it ran out of book material to base it on. Obviously I know the show must go on, and if there's no more material in the book, they will make up their own storylines, but I was mainly interested in seeing the books adapted. After that, I no longer really cared about the show (and I haven't seen seasons 5 or 6).

 

[C DM]

So...when's the sixth book coming out?

I lost interest in the TV series after it ran out of book material to base it on. Obviously I know the show must go on, and if there's no more material in the book, they will make up their own storylines, but I was mainly interested in seeing the books adapted. After that, I no longer really cared about the show (and I haven't seen seasons 5 or 6).

That's kind of an odd take on it to be interested in a story and not wanting to see where it heads after a certain point.

 

[Khalanad75]

So...when's the sixth book coming out?

I lost interest in the TV series after it ran out of book material to base it on. Obviously I know the show must go on, and if there's no more material in the book, they will make up their own storylines, but I was mainly interested in seeing the books adapted. After that, I no longer really cared about the show (and I haven't seen seasons 5 or 6).

Well the show creators do have the full of the story direct from GRRM. That was one of the conditions before the series even started on HBO was that he would have to sit down and tell them how the story plays out. So sure, they are going to take some liberties, but overall the story should end the same book and show.

 

[ThisBougieLife]

That's kind of an odd take on it to be interested in a story and not wanting to see where it heads after a certain point.

Well, I was only interested in the show because I liked the books so much. So I only cared to see the rest of the story to the extent that I wanted to see the books adapted. When the show began to overtake the books, I lost interest because my primary interest in the story was the story in the books. But if it's true that GRRM has actually given the producers of the show the full story, then that's a little different. I still am not as interested, through, for the simple reason that I'd rather read the books first. If the 6th and 7th books ever do come out (let's hope!) then maybe I'll watch the conclusion of the show after I read them.

 

[Huntn]

Agreed, the Lord of the Rings was a superb, and faithful (in both fact and spirit) adaptation of a well loved classic.

Agree, too, about The Hobbit; one powerful movie - properly made - would tell that story perfectly well; it doesn't require three; good grief, I read that book in one night.

Re GoT, I had read that about Sansa and her marriage and how the books and series treat it differently. As it happens, I have read the books, although it is four years since I have done so, and remember Sansa having been obliged to pretend to be Littlefinger's niece, and Ramsey Bolton marrying a fake Sansa in order to acquire legitimacy with the northern houses. Not sure how such storylines can be reconciled.

However, I am more forgiving of this in fiction than in fact; in fiction, you sin, or err, against logic, (or other versions); in history, you sin, or err against known fact, and this can complicate things when unexpected consequences occur down the tracks.

An especially egregious example was the short cut the TV show the Tudors took with Henry VIII's family; in reality, he had two sisters, one of whom married the King of France, and one of whom married the King of Scotland.

The producers of The Tudors decided that audiences might find all of this a little complicated and so decided to reduce the two to one, by condensing the two of them into one combined Tudor princess, but had a lot of explaining of the inexplicable to do later on when the story of Mary Queen of Scots came to be told.

Instead of complicated, I'd imagine they did not have room in their budget or their schedule for two sisters, lol.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Instead of complicated, I'd imagine they did not have room in their budget or their schedule for two sisters, lol.

Their budget was large enough, but, I fear, it was just the usual feeling that it might be burdensome to introduce complicated plot points to an audience.

 

[Huntn]

Their budget was large enough, but, I fear, it was just the usual feeling that it might be burdensome to introduce complicated plot points to an audience.

Reluctantly this can be argued for GoT as one of the many reasons. For the show, I'm fairly confident the changes for the worse, are a result based on budget first, then fitting a coherent story into available time, requiring simplifying the story to fit in, while acknowledging KISS may be employed to keep the short attention span audience from getting too confused with too many subplots and slipping away.

For the first season, the show did a good job of encompassing the first book (GoT). But since then, compared to the rich tapestry of the books, a 10 episode season is practically a crime. They cut so much out last season, to fill up the hole with tragedy, they decided to send Jaime to Dorne to fetch his and Cercei's daughter, and let the Sand Snakes kill her off, as if to distract us. Yes this could happen in future, in the book I guess.

 

[Huntn]

This post marks the beginning my my rereading of the Fire and Ice series, The True Cannon.

A comment was made in the other thread about the weakness of GRRM’s prose. I won’t argue, but just read the Game of Thrones (Book1) Prolog, where Ned Stark executes a deserter from the Night’s Watch, councils Bran why this action had to be taken, and Rob Stark finds a litter of dire wolves, wolves that grow bigger than a pony. While I am no literary expert, the writing is clear, concise, and reminded me of the powerful pull that grabbed hold and would not let go, the first time around. More posts to follow, I’m sure.

One interesting point is this event seemed much bigger than it actually turned out to be in the story's big picture. Was this lack of a follow through, of just an opinion being expressed, that this discovery was a sign? But of what? And it is somewhat surprising that that the TV series diminished the dire wolves in size.

 

[Falhófnir]

This post marks the beginning my my rereading of the Fire and Ice series, The True Cannon.

A comment was made in the other thread about the weakness of GRRM’s prose. I won’t argue, but just read the Game of Thrones (Book1) Prolog, where Ned Stark executes a deserter from the Night’s Watch, councils Bran why this action had to be taken, and Rob Stark finds a litter of dire wolves, wolves that grow bigger than a pony. While I am no literary expert, the writing is clear, concise, and reminded me of the powerful pull that grabbed hold and would not let go, the first time around. More posts to follow, I’m sure.

One interesting point is this event seemed much bigger than it actually turned out to be in the story's big picture. Was this lack of a follow through, of just an opinion being expressed, that this discovery was a sign? But of what? And it is somewhat surprising that that the TV series diminished the dire wolves in size.

I think I might have to commit to a reread too!

 

[MacDawg]

I only watched part of the first season of the HBO series (after having read the books)

I would like to re-read the books myself because I know I missed so much the first time
However, I don't like the idea of the last 2 books still hanging out there unfinished
I honestly don't think they will ever see the light of day with so many other projects out there for GRRM

While I am sure there is $$$ to be made on the last 2 books, there is also a lot of pressure and potential backlash as well
No matter what he writes, it won't be good enough or the right thing for many (most) people, even if it takes the series on another path from the TV series

I wish the books had been completed before the series caught up to them, but alas that ship sailed long ago
And now I fear we won't see any more other than spin-offs and prequels

 

[Huntn]

I only watched part of the first season of the HBO series (after having read the books)

I would like to re-read the books myself because I know I missed so much the first time
However, I don't like the idea of the last 2 books still hanging out there unfinished
I honestly don't think they will ever see the light of day with so many other projects out there for GRRM

While I am sure there is $$$ to be made on the last 2 books, there is also a lot of pressure and potential backlash as well
No matter what he writes, it won't be good enough or the right thing for many (most) people, even if it takes the series on another path from the TV series

I wish the books had been completed before the series caught up to them, but alas that ship sailed long ago
And now I fear we won't see any more other than spin-offs and prequels

The books just need to be coherent with the major character’s arcs addressed, not pencil whipped.

 

[Khalanad75]

It's possible that they do believe they are giving everyone a better story. I have pretty much given up on the books at this point because I honestly think GRRM isn't going to finish them. I think if anything he will end up being like Robert Jordan and dying before they are finished.

I also don't feel as the last two books held up to the first three. Almost as if GRRM has gotten tired of writing the stories.

As for Jon's heritage.

Pretty sure he is a wolf and a dragon and not by Ned.

I could agree that trying to keep the two either separate or tied together could be troublesome. However, that does not account for the amount of time between books 3 and 4 and then again 4 and 5. Those were all out before the show. I have been reading the series since it first came out, so the long years between books has gotten to me.

For one thing, book 5 was supposed to be together with book 4, but supposedly it got too massive and had to be split. Fine, that happens. But if it was just split in two, rewriting of book 5 shouldn't have taken 6 years.

Good call by myself on Jon's heritage.

And for the rest of it, I still stand by it.

I don't think we will see another of the books ever actually get written and published by Martin. Every time he says he is writing away, he also tempers it with, ...but also remember, I have many other things also in the works.

I have said it elsewhere that I believe as a writer, he started to lose his taste for the story after book 3, hence the writing style going downward, but felt compelled for the fans to continue with the story. Now that the story has a finish out there, that compulsion isn't fully there.

And he has his focus elsewhere.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I read accounts of interviews with G R R Martin, and it seems that he may have originally intended to leap forward around five years sometime after the Red Wedding.

The problem was he decided to fill in the gaps of those five years, instead of sketching them briefly, and got lost in a veritable labyrinth of stories of ever increasing complexity.

Now, I believe that the rough character arcs - or ends - were sketched out with the writers of the show, but, as they lacked written source material, they could give the outline of a character's journey but one that lacked depth or nuance or subtlety or context. Plus, the political stuff - and Martins's understanding of political power in that sort of setting was a strength of the books - made the subsequent military action a lot more credible in terms of narrative.

 

[Falhófnir]

I read accounts of interviews with G R R Martin, and it seems that he may have originally intended to leap forward around five years sometime after the Red Wedding.

The problem was he decided to fill in the gaps of those five years, instead of sketching them briefly, and got lost in a veritable labyrinth of stories of ever increasing complexity.

Now, I believe that the rough character arcs - or ends - were sketched out with the writers of the show, but, as they lacked written source material, they could give the outline of a character's journey but one that lacked depth or nuance or subtlety or context. Plus, the political stuff - and Martins's understanding of political power in that sort of setting was a strength of the books - made the subsequent military action a lot more credible in terms of narrative.

I remember reading something similar a while back, if I recall he basically couldn't find a satisfying way of skipping ahead, he either had to basically say nothing happened for 5 years of any importance, or else any major events had to be communicated via limited flashbacks, discussions etc. Arguably yes this has gotten him bogged down in a great big dense suet pudding of plot, but overall I tend to trust his decision there was really no other way of doing it well. I still think the show had already deviated so much by the point they overtook they might have done well to find a different ending that fit better with what they had done up to that point, though.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I remember reading something similar a while back, if I recall he basically couldn't find a satisfying way of skipping ahead, he either had to basically say nothing happened for 5 years of any importance, or else any major events had to be communicated via limited flashbacks, discussions etc. Arguably yes this has gotten him bogged down in a great big dense suet pudding of plot, but overall I tend to trust his decision there was really no other way of doing it well. I still think the show had already deviated so much by the point they overtook they might have done well to find a different ending that fit better with what they had done up to that point, though.

I think he could have done it and saved himself both grief, time, and excessively complicated plants with stuff that is not necessarily germane to the story.

For example, the Mistborn trilogy - which I have just been re-reading this week - has leaps in time of years between the three books, and the first book (The Final Empire), manages to have leaps in time of several months between some of the sections - and it works perfectly; what happened in those leaps is sketched out early on in the next section (or book), and occasionally mentioned by characters when relevant to the story being told during the subsequent sections.

In a book, or story, you don't need to tell everything, or show everything.

 

[Mousse]

The books just need to be coherent with the major character’s arcs addressed, not pencil whipped.

All I ask for is for Bran the Broken to die.

Oh, and no turning my sweet, gentle Daenerys (Breaker of Chains) into a psychopathic mass murderer. I refuse to accept the champion of the downtrodden as a genocidal maniac, not even if she has the blood of the Mad King running through her veins. Stupid HBO ending.

 

[JBGoode]

All I ask for is for Bran the Broken to die.

Oh, and no turning my sweet, gentle Daenerys (Breaker of Chains) into a psychopathic mass murderer. I refuse to accept the champion of the downtrodden as a genocidal maniac, not even if she has the blood of the Mad King running through her veins. Stupid HBO ending.

I think you’ll be disappointed on both counts. HBO’s stupid ending is from Martin himself. I doubt he’s going to alter it that much and ultimately the ending (which we more than likely will never see) will probably be similar although the route taken there may differ. Dany will be the Mad Queen whether or not anyone likes it. I very much doubt we have to worry about a book ending anyway. I don't see it happening.