A Song of Fire and Ice (Book Series, GRR Martin)

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by Huntn, Jun 18, 2015.

  1. Huntn thread starter macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #76
    Martin if he ever gets around to it, hopefully can write a more compelling version of Daenerys breaking bad. The HBO writers dropped a lot of hints, they just did not have adequate time to lay out their vision imo.

    I can take everyone else liking you better, but not this You Are My Queen BS and no longer sleeping with me! I’ll show you just how angry I can get!!!
     
  2. Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #77
    Agreed.

    And conveying character (and character development) and political intrigue and conflict are among Martin's many strengths as a writer.

    The series should have allowed themselves a few further episodes which would have allowed them to pace the story a lot better.
     
  3. rhett7660 macrumors G5

    rhett7660

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    #78
    I have a feeling a lot of the grips and complaints could have been avoided if there was a few more episodes, or do I dare say one more season, to properly lay the foundation to a lot of the issues we are hearing and reading.
     
  4. Scepticalscribe, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019

    Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #79
    Absolutely agree.

    If the narrative arc of the actual story and development of the respective characters - even in rough, or sketched outline - had been already discussed with G R R Martin, then, the final outcome (assuming that this has had his blessing to some degree) shouldn't really be a source of dispute.

    However, a further season, or - at the very least - a few more episodes to allow for character development and political intrigue - would have enabled the series to end in a more balanced and less rushed manner.

    I don't have a quarrel with Dany becoming what she did, if that was what G R R Martin had in mind as her destiny; however, I do have an issue with the truncated development of her character - this facet of her character should have been allowed to evolve more naturally and perhaps a glimpse of some sort of internal conflict wouldn't have gone amiss either.

    Spectacle should always - to my mind - be secondary to plot, narrative and character - it is there to support them, not to become the visually arresting highlight of a show.
     
  5. rhett7660, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019

    rhett7660 macrumors G5

    rhett7660

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    #80
    Perfect word to describe this issue, "Truncated" and yup, I agree completely.
     
  6. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

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    #81
    Whatever drive my Dany to madness needs to an earth shaken even. Not my nephew doesn't love me weak sauce.:rolleyes: With all the hardship and misfortune she has suffered through (the death of her family, death of her husband, death of her child, death of her dragon, death of...lots and lots of people close to her dying). If all that didn't drive her mad, but Jon jilting her does? Huh?:confused:

    That is so it's not you, it's me cliche. If Jon had renounced his Targaryen name, denounced the Targaryen heritage, spit on the incestual Targaryen tradition, THAT is a more credible trigger for Dany's decent into madness. Everything she's done, everything she suffered through was because of her Targaryen name. It's the source of her pride, the source of her power (ability to control dragons). The dagger in the heart would be Jon say the Targaryen bloodline should end with them.
     
  7. Number-Six macrumors 6502

    Number-Six

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    #82
    It might have lacked clear explanation, but I took it all as adding to the fact that she was slowly but surely getting mad.

    There were hints in almost all the previous seasons, the fact that so many died around her coupled with her being so close to her ultimate goal only to see that someone else could very well take it all away from her (in her mind) would be enough to push almost anyone over the edge, I would think.
     
  8. Huntn thread starter macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #83
    Passages like this from the GoT Book 1, sucked me right into the book series.

    First Catelyn chapter:
    “She had been born a Tully, at Riverrun far to the south, on the Red Fork of the Trident. The godswood there was a garden, bright and airy, where tall redwoods spread dappled shadows across tinkling streams, birds sang from hidden nests, and the air was spicy with the scent of flowers.”

    First Daenerys chapter:
    “Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords.”
     
  9. Falhófnir macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #84
    Truncated, and often simplified or even changed for no reason (A good example being Tyrion-Shae-Tysha was fiddled with for no good reason that I could see; and Tyrion's character arc had a lot of the oomph taken out of it as a result).
     
  10. Huntn thread starter macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #85
    After some consideration, I have decided to blow off rereading the published Song of Fire and Ice books, and instead, wait for another book to be published (not holding my breath) and then referring to something like this, where the published major story lines left off:

    https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18631417/game-of-thrones-winds-of-winter-martin-release-date
    Sure — here’s where the major characters and storylines were at the conclusion of A Dance With Dragons:

    In the North of Westeros:
    Jon Snow, still Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, has just been repeatedly stabbed by his own brothers after vowing to march south with an army of wildlings to fight Ramsay Bolton. His fate is unclear. Melisandre, Stannis’s wife Selyse, and his daughter Shireen are all alive and still at the Wall, never having ridden south with Stannis’s army.

    Stannis Baratheon is also alive, and preparing for battle against Roose and Ramsay Bolton near Bolton-held Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy just escaped the Boltons’ abuse alongside Ramsay’s bride — who isn’t Sansa but instead a Northern girl named Jeyne Poole who’s being passed off as “Arya Stark.” These fugitives are now in Stannis’s camp alongside Theon’s sister, Asha (not Yara) Greyjoy. Also, several Northern lords ostensibly in the Boltons’ camp are plotting against them. One, Lord Wyman Manderly, has sent Davos Seaworth on a mission to find the long-missing youngest Stark sibling, Rickon, and bring him out of hiding.

    Bran Stark has traveled north of the Wall to the cave of the Children of the Forest and the Three-Eyed Crow. He was last seen exploring his magical powers — skinchanging into animals, speaking through trees, and seeing visions of the past. Hodor and Summer remain alive and well, as does Jojen Reed (or does he)? The White Walkers themselves, meanwhile, have not been seen on the page since book three.

    In the South of Westeros:
    Sansa Stark remains safe — well, relatively — in the Vale with Littlefinger, but since she’s a wanted fugitive from the Iron Throne, she’s posing as his bastard daughter “Alayne Stone.” Littlefinger has increasingly gained influence over the Vale, and is plotting to marry Sansa not to Ramsay Bolton, but to “Harry the Heir,” a strapping young lad who will become Lord of the Vale should anything unfortunate befall the young and sickly Robert “Sweetrobin” Arryn. Littlefinger has also suggested that he plans to restore Sansa to power in the North.


    Jaime Lannister has been estranged from his sister Cersei since discovering that she had had affairs with other men. Then, after retaking Riverrun, Jaime was unexpectedly reunited with Brienne of Tarth, who claimed to have finally found the long-missing Sansa Stark. But this is a lie — Brienne instead appears to be unwillingly leading Jaime into a trap set by Lady Stoneheart, the resurrected Catelyn Stark. Stoneheart is now leading the Brotherhood Without Banners and is hell-bent on revenge against the Lannisters and Freys for the Red Wedding, and she holds Podrick Payne hostage. (Stoneheart was cut from the TV adaptation.)

    Queen Dowager Cersei Lannister has just been subjected to her “walk of atonement” (the one we saw onscreen in Game of Thrones’ season five finale)and is now sidelined from power in King’s Landing and awaiting trial by the Faith (though she has the undead Gregor Clegane to protect her). Margaery Tyrell is also awaiting trial in the capital, but the Tyrell army has occupied the city to try to ensure her acquittal. Her brother Loras is said to have been badly burned in battle.

    King Tommen, Cersei’s son, is still on the throne, but he’s much younger and not at all an independent actor in the books. Cersei’s uncle Kevan Lannister had really been running the show in King’s Landing, but at the conclusion of the fifth book, he was murdered by Varys, who announced that he hoped to deliver the Iron Throne not to Daenerys but to...

    Aegon Targaryen! Wait, who’s that? (Not Jon Snow!) Well, if you’ll recall, back during Robert’s Rebellion, Dany’s late older brother Rhaegar had two young children who were murdered by the Lannisters — or so we thought. Varys is now claiming that he, in fact, managed to spirit baby Aegon to safety and has had him raised and educated in secret, so that he could be prepared to take over Westeros. Aegon is backed by the Golden Company, a formidable group of mercenaries. He was supposed to travel east and ally with Daenerys, but he instead decided to turn west and invade Westeros without her. There is much fan debate about whether Aegon truly is who he claims to be, and this storyline, which was cut completely from the TV show, looks to be a major part of The Winds of Winter.

    In Dorne, Prince Doran Martell had a secret plan to ally with Daenerys Targaryen against the Lannisters, and sent his son Quentyn to propose marriage to her — but his plan went awry when Quentyn died in Meereen. So Doran and his daughter Arianne Martell (another character cut from the show) must now decide whether to ally with Aegon instead. Meanwhile, some of the Sand Snakes are on their way to King’s Landing alongside Cersei’s daughter Princess Myrcella (who is alive but had her face badly scarred in an assassination attempt).

    Euron Greyjoy — who in the books is a less clownish and much more sinister figure, with seeming magical ambitions — won the kingsmoot and was named king of the Iron Islands. He says he wants to marry Daenerys and use her dragons to conquer Westeros. But first, he and his Ironborn are pillaging the Tyrells’ kingdom, the Reach — and they’re threatening to take over Oldtown, the city where Samwell Tarly has just arrived to begin his training as a maester. The Faceless Man Jaqen H’ghar (Arya’s old friend) has also infiltrated the maesters’ headquarters, for reasons unknown.

    In Essos, the Eastern continent:
    Arya Stark remains in assassin training with the Faceless Men of Braavos, having just carried out her first successful assassination for them. She often has dreams of her direwolf, Nymeria, who is leading an enormous wolfpack back in Westeros.

    Daenerys Targaryen, after having flown away from Meereen on dragonback, is somewhere in the plains far away from the city. She has just been discovered by a group of Dothraki, but unlike on the TV show, this encounter takes place while she’s standing proudly beside her dragon, so she may not end up in their captivity.

    Barristan Selmy is alive and well and trying his best to run the city of Meereen, which is besieged by the slave masters in Dany’s absence. Meanwhile, Euron Greyjoy’s vicious but simple brother Victarion Greyjoy is sailing toward Meereen with the Iron Fleet, hoping to spoil Euron’s plans by claiming Dany for himself. He has in his possession a magical horn given to him by Euron that can supposedly control dragons. We’ll see if it works.

    As for Tyrion Lannister, he’s currently in the camp of the slave masters who are besieging Meereen, but he recently escaped bondage by making a deal with a mercenary company, the Second Sons. Tyrion’s companions at this point are Jorah Mormont (who does not have greyscale) and a female dwarf named Penny. Tyrion hasn’t actually managed to meet Dany yet, and he’s currently trying to convince the Second Sons to defect and fight with Dany’s forces during the upcoming Battle of Meereen.
     
  11. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

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    #86
    I'm guessing the Aunt and Nephew ends up clashing with Auntie Dany winning because dragons. More likely, he's a fake Targaryen.:eek: We only have the Spider's words. Oh! what a tangled web we weave. When first we practise to deceive!;) Can we really trust the words of anyone in Westeros not named Stark?;)

    Aegon is not getting enough story time to be a major plot point. I smells a false flag.
     

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