Adobe Acknowledges That Apple's Flash Prohibition Could Harm Business

[ten-oak-druid]

Ok..what resources does it consume AFTER its loaded (all apps take up resources when loading dude)...go on ..how much?

Heres my system with itunes loaded and sittin there:

No you should compare resources to browse two web sites. One using flash and another not using flash.

 

[Scottsdale]

Thank you. If they just fixed flash, a lot of this wouldn't be happening.

I don't know if you are aware, but the API's adobe wants to use are not available to any 3rd party developer. Why should Adobe get special treatment? Apple has plenty of API's available for Adobe to use that would help them, such as Core Animation and Core video. But they choose not to optimize for the Mac, and instead make it a port of the windows version. And why are they just starting now to try and fix it? Is it because Apple is trying to get rid of it and it might succeed? Yes. But they didn't care the last 10+ years when flash has been crap (ok fine, it was only owned by adobe since 2005, so 5 years, so still a long time)? They knew flash was a staple on the internet and no good alternatives existed yet, so why bother making good for silly ol' Mac user, whose only a minority market share anyway? Now that the HTML5 standard is here, and Apple is pushing people to move towards it, they're getting worried, because Flash is losing its importance, and losing market share. Thats why they want to fix it now. Well you know what, it's too late now. We (by we, I mean Mac users running OSX) suffered the past 10+ years and they had 5 years to fix it and they didn't. Shame really, because if flash actually worked properly in the first place, none of this would be happening.

I am aware that these APIs are not available to others, but how about Adobe's public plea to allow Apple to work with it to provide an excellent experience on the Mac. I am sure Adobe would even let Apple oversee the whole project. Jobs will not allow this as long as he's at Apple.

 

[Will do good]

Why didn't Adobe address consumers concern about Flash years ago? They knew their software was slow, old and buggy. I've used Adobe products for over 15 years and they have become lazy and expensive.

Apple is always about moving forward, making it a better Steve/users. Like it or not, this is how Apple been running for the past 20 years. If you don't like it, stay on the PC side. No body is putting a gun to your head and make you use Apple.

 

[DarkKnightNine]

Sayonara Flash!

The least Apple could do is let flash run on their hand held devices UNTIL HTML5 has been adopted by nearly everyone. At least there wouldn't be any inconvenience to anyone in the mean time. Although, Apple could care less about inconveniencing their consumers, it seems.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so stupid. Apple makes a stand against the industry for the betterment of the whole and people want to slam Apple. Flash was never a good technology. As a person who designed numerous websites using Flash, I'm so happy to see it go. Sayonara and goodbye! H.264 video was always better and now HTML5 has taken up the slack. We have good days ahead and we have Apple to thank for it for being gutsy enough to lead the way.

 

[aristotle]

"...the company released a modified developer licensing agreement that appears to prohibit the use of a feature in Adobe's forthcoming Flash Professional CS5 to export Flash content into the native iPhone format."

Now that is quite a jerk move on Apple's part if that's true....
Really now? You can't be serious!

Yes, really now. The export is or at least was using private APIs which are not allowed to be used by developers who use the official API and Objective-C and it was also loading all of the resources as one large binary chunk from within the executable rather than having distinct resource files which are loaded from within separate files in the application bundle on the fly.

To put that in laymen terms, all graphics, sounds and text is loaded at once and that causes the exported app to consume a lot more ram than native applications do which means it will interfere with multitasking. It was also giving an unfair advantage to those flash apps as it called private APIs that other developers were not allowed to call.

Flash exported apps and other middleware made it that much harder to vet applications and detect whether it was the app or the middleware that was violating the rules about private APIs. So rather than wasting the time of everyone, Apple decided that all developers would have to play on the same level playing field and learn how to program in Objective-C.

 

[Enuratique]

Why is it Flash can use 70%+ less CPU on my same Mac in Windows 7 vs. OS X Snow Leopard? Flash in itself is not a problem... Flash without proper access to the right tools is a problem. Adobe has begged Apple to let it make Flash work on OS X and iPhone OS, but Jobs doesn't like Adobe, so the customer loses out until HTML5 and better solutions are ready for customers.

You know, it's not all about Jobs...

Flash Performance on Mac OS X

In addition to the principled concerns outlined above regarding Flash being proprietary, there are also practical issues. One, Flash’s aforementioned crashiness on Mac OS X. Second, crashiness aside, its performance on Mac OS X is not as good as it is on Windows. And for video playback specifically, Flash’s performance pales compared to H.264 played through QuickTime. This is not subjective. My machine is a two-year-old MacBook Pro. It plays full-screen H.264 video through QuickTime without problem. When I play full-screen Flash video, my fan kicks in within a few seconds, every time.

I’ve been hard on Flash Player for Mac OS X, but this performance situation is not entirely in Adobe’s hands. On Windows, Flash makes use of hardware decoding for H.264, if available. On Mac OS X, it does not. This is one reason why Flash video playback performs better on Windows than Mac OS X, and also why H.264 playback on Mac OS X is better through QuickTime (which does use hardware decoding).

According to Adobe, though, this is because they can’t. Here’s an entry from their Flash Player FAQ:

Q. Why is hardware decoding of H.264 only supported on the Windows platform?

A. In Flash Player 10.1, H.264 hardware acceleration is not supported under Linux and Mac OS. Linux currently lacks a developed standard API that supports H.264 hardware video decoding, and Mac OS X does not expose access to the required APIs. We will continue to evaluate when to support this feature on Mac and Linux platforms in future releases.

Adobe platform evangelist Lee Brimelow recently posted a weblog entry addressing this:

But let’s talk more about the Flash Player on the Mac. If it is not 100% on par with the Windows player people assume that it is all our fault. The facts show that this is simply not the case. Let’s take for example the question of hardware acceleration for H.264 video that we released with Flash Player 10.1. Here you can see some published results for how much the situation has improved on Windows. Unfortunately we could not add this acceleration to the Mac player because Apple does not provide a public API to make this happen. You can easily verify that by asking Apple. I’m happy to say that we still made some improvements for the Mac player when it comes to video playback, but we simply could not implement the hardware acceleration. This is but one example of stumbling blocks we face when it comes to Apple.

I’m aware of no reason to dispute this. Windows is more hospitable to a third-party runtime like Flash than Mac OS X. I think most would agree that Apple is an opinionated company (to say the least), and they make opinionated products. The runtimes Apple cares about are Cocoa and WebKit. The Apple way to play H.264 is through the QuickTime APIs (and really, as of Snow Leopard the new QuickTime X APIs), not to write your own H.264 playback code that seeks to directly access hardware accelerators.

You can argue about why Apple has taken this stance. One could argue that it’s pragmatic — that Apple doesn’t allow third-party software access to things like hardware H.264 acceleration because it seeks to maintain a layer of abstraction between third-party software and the underlying hardware. One could argue that it’s political — that Apple is happy to make Flash look bad performance-wise because Flash is competitive with Apple products in several different regards. (E.g. you may wish that Hulu, which is entirely Flash-based, worked on your iPhone and worked better on your Mac. Apple wishes that Hulu’s content was going through the iTunes Store.)

I would argue that it’s both — that Apple’s distaste for Flash Player is both a matter of engineering taste (that third-party software should only have access to high-level APIs) and politics. But objectively, regardless of what you personally wish Apple would do with regard to Flash, if Adobe needs Apple to grant them further access to the hardware to make the Mac version of Flash Player better, what are the odds that they’d get that sort of low-level hardware access on the iPhone OS? (Hint: zero.)

I’ll leave the last word to Apple COO Tim Cook, who a year ago said, “We believe in the simple, not the complex. We believe that we need to own and control the primary technologies behind the products we make, and participate only in markets where we can make a significant contribution.”

Flash is owned and controlled by Adobe.

I am a pragmatic programmer. It's a bad design to expose hardware-level stuff to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that requests it... Hence why Windows has so many security issues. The performance of Flash on Linux is equivalent to that of the Mac because they share the same design principles.

http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash

 

[fat phil]

It is 100% true. I have been battling Cancer for more than two years. It truly is offensive that someone would compare any of this BS to Cancer. You sir, have NO CLUE what Cancer is until you have experienced it. And none of this BS is anything compared to Cancer.

Sorry to hear that, and I duly feel like a complete idiot, especially after reading your profile. Forums are a little de-humanising sometimes...:/

 

[shadygrove]

The problem is Jobs offers no real solution for viewing all of the Internet that has Flash embedded in it not just for ads, but also for entire websites, video viewing, navigation, cool graphics and etc. We're not just talking some banner ads that are poorly written, without Flash it's impossible to navigate the entire web. This is sickening and madness.

Flash should NEVER be to replace HTML or CSS and this mentality is one reason why Flash sucks and needs to go. To many websites use crappy flash navigation bars that don't need to be there. What function in a flash navigation bar that you can't achieve with HTML, JS, CSS and/or some server-side programming? (Beside Flash itself of course!)

Anytime Flash is used for navigation or content (other than video, games, animated ads) it is being used in a harmful way. For instance, mobile devices are likely to be not compatible. Visually impaired browsers along with text based browsers are no longer functional. If I wanted to use my third mouse click to open the link in a new tab or window, it is doesn't work with flash.

As a professional web developer, no one should EVER use Flash to replace these other languages. This is causing the lack of compatibility because then developers are programming for one group of people, those that have the flash plug-in and systems that can handle the plugin. This is why standards are so important and exact reason for Flash being the unnecessary evil that it is. It doesn't follow any standard and can't be ran natively within any browser. Developers that are using Flash are forcing their audience to do so and in the future will cause the audience to shrink exponentially as there are many people using the internet that doesn't have the need or capability for flash.

And from one developer to another that is complaining about the time spent learning flash... So what... Learn something new and cutting edge and take the market by storm from the beginning. Javascript, HTML, and CSS can do A LOT... And best of all they can be written in a free text editor and debugged in free browsers. There isn't licensing to worry about.

I can't wait for the day when I no longer have to deal with flash at work. I hate it and look down on all the sites using improperly. There are many languages of the past that are not used anymore. We can just throw flash in the history library and say it was a major player in bringing a real need for multimedia standards and the way people use the web.

I think it's time for people to move on to something better...

 

[Henriok]

HTML5 will be a success when there's a content composer with a decent GUI people can quickly learn and use. Not before.

Complain to Adobe that their web development tools isn't putting out decent web standard compliant output, like HTML5, CSS, Javascript, SVG and MPEG4. Because they could, but Adobe choses not to, since they are comfortable with their little web plugin monopoly.

It's Apple's obligation to support _standards_ and their own technologies, nothing else.

 

[Compile 'em all]

I honestly wish Apple would cooperate with Adobe and bring flash to the iPhone/ iPod touch/ iPad. I know the fanboy's will flame me for this one, but I honestly think Apple is too damn controlling sometimes. From what I've read, a majority of the iPhone/ iPod touch/ iPad users would be happy to have flash on their devices. I know I would...

The iPhone and iPod touch combined sold 85 MILLION units to date. I am pretty sure flash is not on the list of priorities of the majority of users.

 

[Scottsdale]

Sorry to hear that, and I duly feel like a complete idiot, especially after reading your profile. Forums are a little de-humanising sometimes...:/

Thanks. I accept and appreciate the apology. Yes, these forums are for fun, real life is elsewhere. None of this affects our health, except maybe Jobs.

Thanks again. Cheers.

I enjoyed the debate. Everyone have fun, cause I got to run! Cheers all.

 

[puffnstuff]

Tell that to iAds

thats not an app though

What is being discussed is converting the flash file to the proper format so it can be approved for the store.

The flash player would not be needed and it would run as a native app.

This new rule doesn't effect only flash since a lot of game devs code in 3rd party compilers.


This is going to effect a lot of devs.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

I would have to agree with you here. Except, my MBP handles Flash very well and has NEVER crashed on me. This isn't a lie, it's the truth. My laptop may heat up a bit from it, but it's about 1/10th of what Java will do to it. If you ask me, I think Java is crappier than Flash.

And Apple implemented their own version of java. The java website redirects you to get it from Apple if you want to download.

http://www.java.com:80/en/download/apple_manual.jsp?locale=en&host=www.java.com:80

 

[smearedblue]

Based solely on your unsupported allegations? No thanks.

In the REAL world, Flash is responsible for 50% of crashes on Macs. It sucks CPU cycles like there's no tomorrow (why should CPU usage hit 115% on a 2.3 GHz Core 2 Duo with 4 GB of RAM - simply for loading a Flash page that isn't doing anyhing?). It is a massive security hole. It shortens battery life.

There is little, if anything, that Flash can do that html 5 can't do. Did you see Jobs' Toy Story iAd demo? Looks like the majority of things that Flash can do are already accessible with html 5 - without all the down sides.

YAY, html 5 has a weak drawing api, all the world is saved.. come on. That demo, what the hell does that show? wow, it has some motion tweens, and embedded audio.. that's revolutionary? That will replace all the flash content on the web? I'd like to see you create an object oriented APPLICATION with video, animation, and states in html5.

 

[ten-oak-druid]

I know the fanboy's will ...

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz

Ignored

 

[*LTD*]

Flash going down the tubes is Adobe's problem, not mine. I have no personal stake in it. Do any of you?

Video is video. If it'll be HMTL5 . . . then it's HTML5. What's the issue here?

 

[Project]

stunned at that adobe blog post. I think they will live to regret it.

 

[RawBert]

WOW! I wouldn't have expected admission of guilt from such a large company with such a huge market share. The tides are turning.

I think this puts Apple at the top of the foodchain in the tech world for sure.

 

[l'homme]

I see in the near future:

1. That Flash might bite the dust. Also, the winner I doubt that it would be an Apple technology, I'm more to Silverlight (even if I don't like MS that much), because of nice implementation in sites, well performance in HD, and is open to a variety of platforms, instead of being restrictive like AAPL.
2. Adobe will take revenge by focus more its products through Windows (as previously seen with 64bit software released first in the Win version).
3. Apple in response, may release its own design software (I'll really jump that wagon when it convince us to be a mature professional product). In the meaning, there will be a struggle in the industry from the ones that would want to take the leadership, I mean, Corel, Pixelmator, CoffeCup, and even GIMP (why not?), would be beligerant to take home the momentum. So, it will occur a reconfiguration in the design software industry.
4. Now that Apple is a gargantuan threat to traditional competitors, that will produce an IT cold war: The ones threatened in its comfort zone, say: Microsoft, Adobe, Mozilla (not supported by iPhone OS), Sony, and even Nintendo (possibly hurted by iTunes App Store), developers rejected, restricted and blocked by AAPL vs the fast growing Apple, supported by developers and digital merchandise productors, that are enjoying the big bucks through iTunes ecosystem vs the ambicious and omnipresent Google.

Returning to the point, I'm for HTML5, CSS, Silverlight, and maybe Quicktime if it can be embedded instead of the use of a plug in. About Flash, it evolves or it dies.
My 2 cents.

 

[Auchron]

Everyone should read this

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...ps_in_iphone_4_0_related_to_multitasking.html

Not saying this is legit since it didn't come from Apple but maybe attacks and other "Screw you Apple" comments should wait till, I don't know, more than one day has passed and the truth about why OS 4 and the "conditions" set for OS 4 are they way they are.

If the above reason is valid, I wonder how many would apologize or take those "Screw you Apple" comments back.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

---
Assuming you studied marketing, did you fail it too?

Adopters and young'ins is where dynasties are made.

That's statistics left over from the Mad Men era. Those young-uns grew up and became baby boomers, who now control over two thirds of the nation's assets. They make all the large purchases and big ticket items. The baby boomers are a MASSIVE demographic.

When 18 year old Johnny wants a MacBook Pro, it's someone older than him buying it or giving him the money to do it. They are more often the early adopters. Kids in college or on allowance aren't buying $600 iPads. And if they are, it's because their rich parents are giving them the money, and most likely, making the ultimate purchase decision.

That's a bit OT, but it's kinda fun.

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

Only few hours ago I was thinking that there would be no chance of Apple buying Adobe but now...hmmm...

If they are really concerned about future of their business - and according to this article as well as recent blog post on theflashblog.com - it certainly appears that they are then everything is possible...

I mean do you remember the time when Adobe took over Macromedia!?!?!

It was shocking and it came out of the blue!

I wouldn't be surprised anymore if Apple does something like this...

 

[cdarlington1]

oh?

Stupid Apple..



Why would that be funny? It would be another example of Apple's corporate douchery... Adobe's a decent company run by decent people.. Apple isn't.

oh really? and why would that be? Adobe's a decent company...really?

 

[jragosta]

I am aware that these APIs are not available to others, but how about Adobe's public plea to allow Apple to work with it to provide an excellent experience on the Mac. I am sure Adobe would even let Apple oversee the whole project. Jobs will not allow this as long as he's at Apple.

Why should Apple oversee a project to fix a broken plug-in that we're better off without? And why is it that other application vendors have no problem creating apps with public APIs and Adobe can't do so. For example, my daughter plays a game called Webkinz. When you first load the page, even before it's doing anything at all, CPU usage goes way over 100% (dual core system). Why is that when it's just a simple image on the screen at that point? You can't blame that kind of obscenity of the fact that Adobe is limited to public APIs. Well, you can if you're an Adobe shill, but no one believes you.

The iPhone and iPod touch combined sold 85 MILLION units to date. I am pretty sure flash is not on the list of priorities of the majority of users.

Not to mention that Clicktoflash and Flashblocker are two of the most widely used utilities around.

YAY, html 5 has a weak drawing api, all the world is saved.. come on. That demo, what the hell does that show? wow, it has some motion tweens, and embedded audio.. that's revolutionary? That will replace all the flash content on the web? I'd like to see you create an object oriented APPLICATION with video, animation, and states in html5.

I never said the world was saved - that's just the usual mindless argument that trolls like you use when you can't make a real argument.

The person I was responding to said that html 5 wouldn't do navigation or any 'advanced' features. I pointed out that he was wrong. All you have to do is watch that demo and it's clear that html will do just about everything that Flash will do.

 

[chatin]

Apple-verse the new DRM.

Quite possible that Apple has reinvented digital rights management without a single OS product key. Flash is a necessary casualty for forward thinking media rights management.