Adobe CEO Responds to Steve Jobs' 'Thoughts on Flash'

[awmazz]

Java is bytecode compiled but in use actually runs faster than native C/C++ code in many cases (the runtime optimizes slow code as it goes). Burns a bit of RAM but the iPhone has loads of RAM anyway.

128MB or 256MB is loads? Actual free memory is probably what, 40-80MB?

No, you are. The SWF specification is publicly available as an open standard that everybody can implement:

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf/

Try getting something like that from Apple for -any- of their technologies.

Open standard, or open source? Two different things. Jobs referred to 'open source', while Adobe guy countered with 'open standard' and 'cross platform' to infer they're the same thing, which is purposely misleading in the context of any reply to Jobs.

To take your challenge - how's about Webkit? Open source, not just open standard.

 

[MorphingDragon]

With their focus on mobile apps one would think that iTunes and the App store would at least run a little smoother. iTunes is a bloated, slow beast. As far as I can tell, Apple is focusing on making the mac family media consumption devices. People will have to start going elsewhere to create the media. FCS is getting long in the tooth. Old code, non mac like interface, odd looking save dialog boxes, ugh. It's almost as if it was developed in some dreaded 3rd party framework!

The ironic thing about Pro Apps, they all have that bland grey look...

How much cash does Apple have on hand again? Just hire some more people!

Do we really want another Vista? Apple want competent programmers with a Masters or 5 years experience. Not some fresh Bachelors graduate.

 

[dub3000]

128MB or 256MB is loads? Actual free memory is probably what, 40-80MB?



Open standard, or open source? Two different things. Jobs referred to 'open source', while Adobe guy countered with 'open standard' and 'cross platform' to infer they're the same thing, which is purposely misleading in the context of any reply to Jobs.

To take your challenge - how's about Webkit? Open source, not just open standard.

sorry about megaquoting, posting from a phone.

50mb is plenty enough to run big java apps. Or flash ones, for that matter.

Also, flash is way more open than Quicktime, which apple is fine about using everywhere. I've build medium sized apps with free gpl flash dev tools.

 

[awmazz]

Yeah. And the Mac is dead without Adobe software.

May have been true in the 1990s. Not now.

Even if there is no current viable alternative to an Adobe app such as Photoshop, Apple is now in a position to buy and/or develop one themselves, such as they did with Final Cut and Aperture. Actually better than their Adobe counterparts in my opinion, so Adobe has been proven to be no longer non-expendable and the master of Apple's domain.

 

[MorphingDragon]

sorry about megaquoting, posting from a phone.

50mb is plenty enough to run big java apps. Or flash ones, for that matter.

Also, flash is way more open than Quicktime, which apple is fine about using everywhere. I've build medium sized apps with free gpl flash dev tools.

You do realize that Quicktime is just a movie player for .MOV files right? (Which is a container format that could contain just about anything)

 

[macsmurf]

Objective C is really old (older than flash) and it shows. It was originally designed for the NeXT platform. C is old. C++ is old. So what?

 

[awmazz]

Objective C is really old (older than flash) and it shows. It was originally designed for the NeXT platform. C is old. C++ is old. So what?

Objective C was 1983. Jobs licenced it for NeXT in 1988.

 

[MorphingDragon]

=
Try getting something like that from Apple for -any- of their technologies.

.Mov is part of the MPEG-4 standard. WEBKIT, GCD, LLVM, CUPS etc are all Apple technologies and are all open source and free to implement.

 

[iBug2]

sorry about megaquoting, posting from a phone.

50mb is plenty enough to run big java apps. Or flash ones, for that matter.

Also, flash is way more open than Quicktime, which apple is fine about using everywhere. I've build medium sized apps with free gpl flash dev tools.

Quicktime is not a web standard, nor is Apple pushing it to be one. Quicktime is used in professional video editing a lot, so it's here to stay for the time being. And it's only a container format and a movie player. Nothing else.

 

[zacman]

HTML5 code runs up to 5 times slower on Safari 4.0.3 in MacOS X than the "crappy" Adobe Flash browser plugin.

HTML5 is up to 30(!) times slower on the iPhone 3GS than the Flash player on other smartphones running the same code.

Have fun with HTML5

 

[macsmurf]

Objective C was 1983. Jobs licenced it for NeXT in 1988.

You're right. I should've checked my facts.

It's really really old, then

Flash aside, I would like to see C# on the mobile platforms, but that is still up in the air.

 

[awmazz]

You do realize that Quicktime is just a movie player for .MOV files right? (Which is a container format that could contain just about anything)

Quicktime was actually a competitor to Flash, with sprites and url links and interaction etc.

Ironies of ironies, Adobe used Quicktime in GoLive while Flash belonged to its fierce rival Macromedia. Once the acquisition occurred Adobe dumped Quicktime for Flash. So in essence, the Adobe that was pro-Mac is gone as it's turned out more like Macromedia acquired Photoshop and Illustrator, and the name Adobe.

 

[awmazz]

HTML5 code runs up to 5 times slower on Safari 4.0.3 in MacOS X than the "crappy" Adobe Flash browser plugin.

HTML5 is up to 30(!) times slower on the iPhone 3GS than the Flash player on other smartphones running the same code.

Have fun with HTML5

Interesting update on the article where this graphic originates :

Update (23/3/2010): For those whose browsers crash on the Flash test I have a feeling that the flood of setInterval calls might be causing it, so you can try the versions of the tests that are rate-limited to 25 FPS:

 

[rdlink]

this exchange shows how big of a deal Flash as platform really is. Losing the dominance of Flash seems to be a big deal to Adobe so their CEO comes out for an interview right after Steve Jobs gives his interview.

How much money does Adobe make from Flash? Could it break Adobe NOW THAT Flash HAS BECOME unimportant?

Fixed your typos for you.

 

[ranReloaded]

Awesome replies from Adobe CEO!

Simple, straight to the point and most importantly HONEST!

As opposed to blatant LIES Steve spwed all over the place...

CS5 comes with a new application. Ps, Ai, Fl, Dw, Pr, Ae, and now...

Ka (Adobe KoolAid™)

 

[ranReloaded]

Objective C is really old (older than flash) and it shows. It was originally designed for the NeXT platform. C is old. C++ is old. So what?

C is the best tradeoff so far for high performance-yet-hardware-agnostic programming language. Obj-C and C++ are built on top of that to support the more modern objective-oriented paradigm. Script kiddies just want to get away with having their "code" run somehow on every platform available at the expense of efficiency. Let the user buy more expensive hardware to justify your sloppiness. That's the Adobe way, exposed on every release of the ever more spec-demanding and bloated Creative Suite.

I am considering learning some ARM assembly to pin-point optimize critical parts of my code. I want my apps to run as smooth as possible. A couple more hours of my work to save milliseconds in every user's hardware pays off for me.

I'm totally with Steve on this one.

 

[deviant]

have fun lulz
http://www.9to5mac.com/microflash?u...c-MacAllDay+(9+to+5+Mac+-+Apple+Intelligence)

Microsoft says, 'The future of the Web is HTML5'

Now all apple haters will change their minds ?

 

[bimmzy]

The only time my IE on Windows ever crashes is because of Flash. Maybe Microsoft should fix their OS too.

Well YES to that! ... but not because of flash

 

[awmazz]

have fun lulz
http://www.9to5mac.com/microflash?u...c-MacAllDay+(9+to+5+Mac+-+Apple+Intelligence)

Microsoft says, 'The future of the Web is HTML5'

Now all apple haters will change their minds ?

Ouch. Hit a guy while they're down, why don't they? I'm actually starting to feel sorry for them.

 

[Master Chief]

I am rather disappointed by some of the comments made by Mr. Steve Jobs about HTML5. He clearly wants Apple to look good. No surprises here, but still.

First. It should no longer be a secret that the video tag implementation in the HTML5 draft specification is one of the biggest hurdles [go ask Ian] – browser vendors are free to support any video format(s) they feel are appropriate – and yet he skips it. Completely.

Note: Mozilla won't ever implement H.264 simply because it ain't open; Real open formats come without a license fee!

And now about the claim made about the [lack of] speed and [reduced] battery life; You [Apple] are guilty for not supporting other vendors; Apple only recently gave other people access to this new API (with Snow Leopard 10.6) and still for a limited number of graphics cards only.

We all know that the lack of hardware acceleration is what troubled vendors like Adobe, yet Apple denied access to it. For years. So why blame Adobe for it? Wasn't it you, personally, who said no to it? Because Apple lacked the resources for it?

 

[MorphingDragon]

Quicktime was actually a competitor to Flash, with sprites and url links and interaction etc.

That was then, this is now.

Snip

Mozilla needs to stop whining or come up with a better solution. They could ask Google for some money as Google pays them a lot to be the default search engine.

The rest of the silly little projects like Epiphany can wither and die. Anything to get rid of that scourge GTK.

---

I found this:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/02/...r-video?icid=sphere_blogsmith_inpage_engadget

Guess what? I couldn't watch it properly because flash lagged so much.

 

[Master Chief]

Mozilla needs to stop whining or come up with a better solution. They could ask Google for some money as Google pays them a lot to be the default search engine...

Please. Don't add irrelevant issues since this has nothing to do with Mozilla whining, but the lack of real open video formats.

Open in my book is open. And only when there is no license fee attached to it. Not now. Not in the future.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Open in my book is open. And only when there is no license fee attached to it. Not now. Not in the future.

Unfortunately, the hippy GNU philosophies don't apply in the real world.

Still, Mozilla need to shut up or do something about it. They are the leader of the free web, they have obligation. Yet they just include .ogg with Firefox and go no further.

 

[Grade]

Just to send another point here for my fellow forumers.

Iphone SDK is available at 99 dollars and you can create up to anything from news message to games and video and stuff.

While if you want to program anything in flash, you need the Flash program that is non-upgrading version and whopping 300 dollars?

SDK offers wide range of things you could do with their program and is even less expensive then Flash, but flash offers way less.

 

[Master Chief]

Unfortunately, the hippy GNU philosophies don't apply in the real world.

That has nothing to do with it; Have a look at webkit and cups. Just two examples. Really free and open. Without a [patent] licensing fee.

Still, Mozilla need to shut up or do something about it. They are the leader of the free web, they have obligation. Yet they just include .ogg with Firefox and go no further.

We clearly have different opinions, but the fact remains that browser vendors can do what they want. That is how it works. And we're not discusing Mozilla here, or their moves, but Apple's view on the matter. Yes H.264 is great but these patent licensing royalties are not.

And why can't you accept the fact that there are people [here] who don't like software patents... just like you obviously have issues with GNU philosophers. Maybe for the wrong reasons, but you are entitled to have and express your own opinion here. Just like other people. Thank you.