Adobe to End Development on Flash-to-iPhone Compiler in Wake of Apple License Change

[MorphingDragon]

Dear Passer of Judgement

If I'm arrogant then you're smug and pretentious.

Now ask me if I care.

 

[zimv20]

This isn't about performance, cross compilation or anything like that. This is about Apple wanting developers to make a choice: iPhone/ipad or everything else.

Jobs is betting developers will pick Apple, and in the near term he's probably right. But soon Android (helped by Flash, among others) will be an actual competitor.

This is what it's really about. And as a developer looking to get into the mobile market, I'm being forced to choose.

I don't like it.

 

[Max(IT)]

Most iProduct users that I know are extremely pissed that their devices don't display Flash - or Java - content. It actually makes the platform less versatile, less usable and less valuable and the users feel restricted and limited in their possibilities.

Actually, your argument is a negation of the reality. Content -is- provided in Flash format, many online businesses still require Java capabilities in your browser and Apple is giving its customers neither. Their devices lack the necessary compatibility with several of today's de facto standards. And on top of that, Apple even CENSORS the content on their devices.

Now what will the users do? They will switch to a compatible platform that provides it all and that without any censorship: Enter Android. The rapidly growing market share of Android devices speaks volumes about what the users are choosing.

Apple are shooting themselves in their own foot with their ridiculous walled garden policies. Again. But Steve Jobs is notorious for doing this since the 1980s, so there's nothing new here, really. He condemned the Mac to be a niche system, and now he also condemns his iProducts to be niche systems by making the same mistakes again.

Steve Jobs didn't learn any lessons from the desktop war against the IBM PC clones and Microsoft and he obviously never put any thought into the question why Apple had lost this war. Today the battle field has changed to mobile platforms, but in its essence it is still the same war: A closed platform owned by one single entity against an open platform shared and used by the entire rest of the industry. Now it's no longer the Mac against DOS and Winodws PCs, this time it is the closed iPhone OS and AppStore platform against the open Android platform. Everybody can build Android devices, and everybody can write software for Android with whatever tool and language pleases him.

The open platforms have always won the battles against closed platforms. There is zero reason to believe that this time the closed platform will prevail.

It actually can be reduced to this: People want the Freedom of choice. And that's the one thing you cannot get from Apple.

First: in Jobs view, Apple didn't lost any war. Let the crapware with pc clones.
Second: what are you speaking about ??? Flash is a CLOSED software

 

[Hal Itosis]

This isn't about performance, cross compilation or anything like that.

Oh no? Sure sounds like you missed the multitasking thread. (at least, i don't see any posts from you there).

This is about Apple wanting developers to make a choice: iPhone/ipad or everything else.

This is what it's really about. And as a developer looking to get into the mobile market, I'm being forced to choose.

Absolute nonsense. There is one other alternative: you can also develop for both. It just requires more work, as opposed to the cookie-cutter ‘code once, run everywhere’ approach that (spoiled?) developers would probably prefer.

Jobs is betting developers will pick Apple, and in the near term he's probably right. But soon Android (helped by Flash, among others) will be an actual competitor.

Competition is good for everyone... but this isn't about Jobs making any bet. He just wants to make it easier for Apple to weed out apps which aren't written with the best intentions for the iPhone platform in mind. [i wonder how many app submissions they have to screen every week.]

 

[Bytor65]

The end of the Flash-to-iPhone compiler is an unqualified win for the platform.


Where the loss could come is in what happens with actual decent tools like Unity.

 

[thatrandomguy]

The end of the Flash-to-iPhone compiler is an unqualified win for the platform.

I'm trying to figure out how forcing devs to make a choice between putting much more time and resources into making an app from scratch for the iPhone is good when they could use the compiler instead and do the last 20% (fixing whatever isn't optimal, finishing touches, etc.)

Apple charges developers $99 for the right to get apps reviewed. Apps that are "substandard" should be caught by this process and rejected- that would be pro-consumer, and the whole given reasoning for why the App Store exist (and there's no official legal third party store).

The export tool is not intended as "hit a button and send it to the app store". It's designed to save you a ridiculous amount of time. If you are a lazy dev, yeah, you're code's going to suffer. A good dev will use it and then tweak the output to make it just as good as a native app.

Instead, Apple blanket bans so some smaller devs will go iPhone only.

To me, it strikes me as solely financially motivated.

 

[SAPPete]

Jobs has already addressed this in the past. The power of the App store and available apps is a difference maker for the iPhone/iPad. Allowing cross-compiler products removes that advantage.

Not to mention it also guarantees inferior quality apps.

Here we go again with the nonsense. The app store is full of crap apps. Checked lately ? I thought Adolf Jobs personally oversees that only totally ZOMG awesome apps make it to the app store ?

Then there are also amazing apps out for jailbroken only phones (see Cydia Store). iBlacklist, PDAnet / iPhone Modem (tethering), MxTube etc etc

Riddle me that !

 

[Bytor65]

The export tool is not intended as "hit a button and send it to the app store". It's designed to save you a ridiculous amount of time. If you are a lazy dev, yeah, you're code's going to suffer. A good dev will use it and then tweak the output to make it just as good as a native app.

Just how do you tweak the output of a Flash-to-App converter? The output isn't source code. Its a compiled EXE. There is no tweaking that. You can tweak the input and hope, but the generic nature of flash on the input will keep producing generic results on the output.

I fully agree that Apple should reject more junk from the appstore, but that is a separate issue.

But banning flash-to-app will definitely cut down on the coming flood of mediocre flash apps. I watched the Adobe demos of their highlighted presumably some of the great apps created with flash-to-app. They looked like bad knockoffs of 1980's 2d console games.

No serious developer was going to use flash to target high quality applications for a platform. It is just a way for flash web designer to push a button and hope for a payday. Having this dump on Android instead, is nothing but a win for Apple.

Again. The real potential loss is actual serious game development tools like Unity. This is the one to watch.

 

[KindredMAC]

Just how do you tweak the output of a Flash-to-App converter? The output isn't source code. Its a compiled EXE. There is no tweaking that. You can tweak the input and hope, but the generic nature of flash on the input will keep producing generic results on the output.

I fully agree that Apple should reject more junk from the appstore, but that is a separate issue.

But banning flash-to-app will definitely cut down on the coming flood of mediocre flash apps. I watched the Adobe demos of their highlighted presumably some of the great apps created with flash-to-app. They looked like bad knockoffs of 1980's 2d console games.

No serious developer was going to use flash to target high quality applications for a platform. It is just a way for flash web designer to push a button and hope for a payday. Having this dump on Android instead, is nothing but a win for Apple.

Again. The real potential loss is actual serious game development tools like Unity. This is the one to watch.

I agree with you and I don't at the same time.

I use Flash sparingly for our corporation, but I was really looking forward to creating some Marketing apps using Flash animation that I have already created for our website.
Now I have no ground to stand on should I be able to make it work.

 

[Shin3r]

You must've really studied this issue.... Those developers must be lazy too, like Adobe.

It all depends how one defines "market," of course. A court may reasonably find against Apple.

Yet, I am sure you rejoiced when MS was in a similar predicament.

A court may or may not find anything. I'm not an expert, and guess what, neither are you!! I'm just stating an opinion, which by the way, has nothing to do with whether I like flash or not. Most of your dribble is calling people fanboys, shills, and flash haters. You apparently don't do very well actually presenting any really great argument without being a bully and discounting anybody's opinion that is not your own.

Also, don't assume to know how I reacted when MS was in the same predicament. I actually didn't really give a crap and I actually don't really care what is happening now. It's just fun commentary for me. Technology will move forward, with or without Apple, and with or without Adobe. Life moves forward and you adjust to what's available. It's people like you that destroy good conversation by constantly calling others names and not adding anything of real value.

 

[thatrandomguy]

But banning flash-to-app will definitely cut down on the coming flood of mediocre flash apps. I watched the Adobe demos of their highlighted presumably some of the great apps created with flash-to-app. They looked like bad knockoffs of 1980's 2d console games.

Part of it is making sure the dev optimized the ActionScript which is what you can do on any platform.

It converts the ActionScript with LLVM to native code.

I noticed that the Fickleblox app seemed to have no issues with framerate. Neither did the Digg one, except for the generally crappy encoding quality of AdobeTV.

No serious developer was going to use flash to target high quality applications for a platform. It is just a way for flash web designer to push a button and hope for a payday. Having this dump on Android instead, is nothing but a win for Apple.

No, it was a compelling feature for a CS5 upgrade. The iPhone has its own resolution (and you have 20px on the status bar...) so it's really a unique resolution to develop for.

Adobe wanted to give Flash Devs a reason to upgrade.

It also allowed Windows users to make iPhone Apps too. I think this was a large part of it - making devs choose to invest not only in the iPhone hardware, and dev certificate, but MORE hardware.

Again. The real potential loss is actual serious game development tools like Unity. This is the one to watch.

Interesting, but I still believe that Apple was in the wrong. Developers pay for the right to submit apps to the app store so they may be properly reviewed. Any app that uses an inordinate amount of power (processing/battery, although the two are closely related) for its appearance/function should be rejected. Blanket banning other compilers is wrong.

Agree to disagree, though.

 

[Moonbee]

A bit techie, but interesting points:

"iPhone 4.0: Why Can't We All Just Get Along?"
http://blog.olitee.com/2010/04/iphone-4-0-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/

 

[RazHyena]

So....Trudy Miller's rebuttal amounts to nothing more than: "NUH UH..ADOBE IS A CLOSED PLATFORM!!1"


Magical.

 

[pmjoe]

While I loathe Flash, these additional draconian changes from Apple (on top of their existing mess) basically mean no other programming languages on the iPhone/iPad/iPod touch without minimally knowing Objective-C.

I moved the developers I manage over to web-based mobile development months ago, and I'll be replacing my iPhone when my contract ends this summer with an Android phone.

 

[Hal Itosis]

While I loathe Flash, these additional draconian changes from Apple (on top of their existing mess) basically mean no other programming languages on the iPhone/iPad/iPod touch without minimally knowing Objective-C.

I moved the developers I manage over to web-based mobile development months ago, and I'll be replacing my iPhone when my contract ends this summer with an Android phone.

Therefore, i would suppose that —since you care so little about developing for the iPhone, then —we should all be grateful you're leaving.

Thanks.

 

[Max(IT)]

I've reported 6 SAFARI crashes just this week and all were JAVASCRIPT, not FLASH.

Apple is really falling down on Safari development.

Sure, it's faster than most other browsers, but if you lose all your data when it crashes, what good is it?

Sometimes, I even have to reboot after a Safari crash, and attempting to restore the last webpage is normally impossible.

It's clear Apple is spending all it's time on iPhone/iPad stuff these days.

Are you sure you don't use an hackintosh ? Never had 6 Safari crashes in a week. NEVER

 

[SactoGuy18]

This isn't about performance, cross compilation or anything like that. This is about Apple wanting developers to make a choice: iPhone/ipad or everything else.

Jobs is betting developers will pick Apple, and in the near term he's probably right. But soon Android (helped by Flash, among others) will be an actual competitor.

This is what it's really about. And as a developer looking to get into the mobile market, I'm being forced to choose.

I don't like it.

I agree 100%. In the end, it's either developing for the very closed environment with iPhone OS or the more "open" environment with Android OS. And don't discount Android--Google will throw a lot of money to continue Android development and with all of the world's major cellphone manufacturers rolling out Android-based cellphones and just about every prospective tablet computer maker very interested in an Android-based tablet, they will pose a huge threat to Apple by the middle of 2011.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Are you sure you don't use an hackintosh ? Never had 6 Safari crashes in a week. NEVER

He might be running Glims or AdBlock Safari. I don't know which one of those made it crash, but it sure as hell screwed up my Safari install.

I changed back to Firefox with 3.6 and applied the pipeline hack. AdBlock Pro is the reason to use Firefox.

 

[pmz]

No they don't...

What exactly would I do with **** overpriced iDevice that locks me into some swastika loving draconian little bubble and it doesnt even allow me to view half of the web online!?!?!

Sure I wouldn't refuse it if Steve gives it to me - thanks Steve!

But I wouldn't pay the guy a penny for such pile of crap!

you need to be removed from this site, and it has nothing to do with your "dislike" for "iDevices"

 

[Max(IT)]

I'd listen to Apple more if their site wasn't infested with QuickTime videos everywhere.

QuickTime on Windows is total malware (hijacks your browser for filetypes it could already handle) and it is force bundled with iTunes, which in itself isn't great.

It seems to be "we like open standards when it suits us, but we also like our own proprietary standards when it does not".

And Who cares about a "Windows-only" problem (if any), on a Mac forum ?

 

[harveypooka]

And Who cares about a "Windows-only" problem (if any), on a Mac forum ?

Wasn't he pointing out Apple's hypocrisy?

I think that the debate for open and closed source is relevant to many people people.

 

[Max(IT)]

Lazy, nice "talking point." Did you learn that from Steve Jobs.

Instead of being so critical of Adobe based on ignorance alone, please read this.

Also look into Final Cut Pro, it's still using carbon. So according to you, APPLE IS LAZY. See how that works...

yes, lazy. And quite incompetent (Flash is really crapware).

And lazy are FCP dev team, as well .... And add Microsoft Office dev team to the list.

 

[Max(IT)]

Wasn't he pointing out Apple's hypocrisy?

I think that the debate for open and closed source is relevant to many people people.

there are historical reasons behind Apple rage against Adobe.
I don't really care.
What I do care is that Flash is crapware, and I'm very happy to get rid of it.

 

[Dysfnctnl85]

Clarification

Has anyone in this thread used Flash to develop an iPhone App?

How about any other development utility such as Unity?

I'm still looking for some clarification about how these two specific methods factor in to Apple's new terms.

Anyone with a technical understanding care to explain how they work and if there is any weight to the argument that they are a black box when deployed as an iPhone application?

 

[Max(IT)]

HTML5 doesn't have an application like Flash CS4 to create content without ever typing a single line of code, for example, making it easier to use for artists and people who don't want to code, but instead want to create stuff.

Animating with Flash is the easiest thing to do, you can do timeline-based animation, frame-by-frame animation and tweens without ever touching the Actions panel. And it's all vector based. How do you to that with HTML5? How do you make an animated cartoon easily with HTML5 today?

And Flash has never crashed any of my PCs, it has only crashed my Mac. So I wouldn't blame Flash for that!

Videos and websites that require coding and databases, on the other hand, are not ideal for Flash, but until now, there was no alternative for years. HTML5 will probably do a good job at replacing all that, but slowly, since I'm sure not everyone wants to pay for a new website right now.

At the moment there is nothing Flash can't do that HTML5 can do, only Flash does some things much less effectively if you have an old computer.

So basically you like Flash because you are a developer unable to ... develop.
Interesting point of view

BTW if Flash crashes on Macs IT IS Adobe's fault, because Apple can't do anything on Flash player code.
And when you keep saying that Flash is just fine on other platforms (like Windows), you are plain wrong: Flash is crapware everywhere. Under Windows it's simply "less crapware" ...