What did the Ford Focus do to become the butt of everyone's joke?? Is it really the bottom of the barrel as far as engineering/design goes? 😝
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
AirPods Max Won't Directly Support Lossless Apple Music Over Lightning
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
To play Apple Lossless at the best quality you'll need a DAC capable of 24/96 .... Assuming the ADC in the AirPods Max is a similar spec to their lighting DAC, it's limited to 24/48. Downsampled, sure, but still going to be alot better than a lossy compression format.
But even with the downsampling on a lightning to 3.5mm and half decent headphones its' going to be one hell of an upgrade from a 256kbps AAC or 320kbps Spotify Ogg.
A 3.5mm port isn't going to solve the problem unless the Phone's DAC is capable. A new cable or dongle with a 24/96 DAC perhaps if the APM were upgraded with an equivalent ADC on the other end (or somehow its firmware upgradeable to achieve HR audio).
The AirPods Max might require the DSP to sound decent - kind of like the audio processor units for Bose speakers. They'd work, but sound like crap (Perhaps Bose is not a good comparison
).It was probably easier to tune them electronically after the basic design had been done.
I'd be interested to see if anyone has tried hard-wiring the drivers.
not really. With AAC, the encoding is done by the publisher(Apple Music). With lossless the encoding is done by your OS.
It turns out, the wire on AirpodMax is just a charging cable, right?
With APM or with any other normal analog headphones? I still don’t get it.Apple just confirmed with 9to5mac that even with the Lightening-to-3.5mm adapter, lossless will not work. At least not currently.
"But what about AirPods Max? Well, we asked Apple about it too since users can plug in a Lightning cable with a 3.5mm connector to use it wired. Unfortunately, Apple also told us that “AirPods Max currently does not support digital audio formats in wired mode.” For AirPods owners, the only Apple Music supported feature will be Spatial Audio with Dolby Atmos."
Apple Music Lossless requires wired headphones - 9to5Mac
Apple confirmed that Apple Music Lossless requires wired headphones. However, AirPods will get support for Spatial Audio with Dolby Atmos.9to5mac.com
Yes, it goes from the phone to the AirPods the exactly same way, you're right.
Starting out with the higher quality lossless file is what makes it sound better. Tidal and Amazon Music HD are lossless like the new Apple Music will be, not 320kbps.
Not that one. It's actually referring to the 1.2m lightning to 3.5mm cable that Apple sells separately for $35.
One can only hope that Apple will have ONE headphone and ONE speaker solution for ALL types of music that Apple Music can play (from Dolby Atmos to 24/192) otherwise it will be mind boggling. Almost like Apple Music team giving middle finger to the hardware team.
To my understanding, that 3.5mm-ligntning wire is just a normal analog connection and has nothing to do with lossless (digital) transmission. The lossless DA conversion will be done by the host device.
Imagine roadmapping all of your products for years and missing things like this.
(Planned obsolescence doesn't exist)
(Planned obsolescence doesn't exist)
yes...the audio cable is another $35, but dont worry Apple was thinking about the environment when they made that call
The cable Input of AirPod Max always was analog, then digitized in the analog to digital adapter. I am sure you can playback the Apple Lossless files in iTunes/Music app and output them on the 3.5mm headphone jack to whatever device is connected. But whatever is output there is an analog signal, then digitized again and it can simply not be called lossless by definition. And there is no way around this, unless Apple provides a direct digital wired connection for the Airpods Max in the future. They possibly will do this and provide an Airpods Max firmware update - but let’s be real it’s a niche in a niche in a niche market…
Despite all: It may still sound great(er) already now - lossless files playback may even improve the quality vs playing back of same song being AAC compressed as it cuts compression at the start of the chain.
Despite all: It may still sound great(er) already now - lossless files playback may even improve the quality vs playing back of same song being AAC compressed as it cuts compression at the start of the chain.
Last edited:
It seems that LDAC can do (largely - see below) lossless CD quality (16bit/44.1kHz) over Bluetooth at the 909 or 990 kbps data rate. And some Sony and other Android phones (e.g. LG) and players let you force that rate (instead of the default “best efforts” which can go to lower bitrates) so you can do (largely) lossless wireless with say WF-1000XM3 or WH-1000XM4 or other headphones supporting the LDAC Bluetooth codec.
Source:
en.m.wikipedia.org
It also seems however that despite the marketing it isn’t bit-perfect lossless (like ALAC or FLAC) because sometimes the bitrate required peaks at over 990kbps so there must still be a little compression at times.
Source:
www.audiosciencereview.com
Then again some other codecs such as aptX LL with lower bitrates than LDAC (albeit still higher than AAC) have better latency.
Source:
In summary although it seems you can get close to lossless CD quality over Bluetooth with carefully chosen components and settings, you can’t do true lossless over Bluetooth.
I expect it’s fairly likely that with their custom silicon Apple may well come out with a new low-power higher bandwidth wireless protocol on future hardware.
In the meantime if you want lossless on headphones, buy a decent set with an analogue input!
Source:
LDAC (codec) - Wikipedia
It also seems however that despite the marketing it isn’t bit-perfect lossless (like ALAC or FLAC) because sometimes the bitrate required peaks at over 990kbps so there must still be a little compression at times.
Source:
Is LDAC lossy or bit-perfect for 44.1kHz/16bit (Red Book CD) files?
Hi, In theory, SONY claims that file 44.1kHz/16bit (Red Book CD) sent over Bluetooth with LDAC (*when used speed is 990kbps) should be the same as original file and sending Hi-Res files like 96kHz/24bit is lossy. However: 1/ WAV file 44.1kHz/16bit has bitrate about 1400kbps...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Then again some other codecs such as aptX LL with lower bitrates than LDAC (albeit still higher than AAC) have better latency.
Source:
Understanding Bluetooth codecs
Want to know more about wireless audio? Take our crash course in Bluetooth codecs, bitrate, standards, and uses from SBC to LDAC and more.
www.soundguys.com
In summary although it seems you can get close to lossless CD quality over Bluetooth with carefully chosen components and settings, you can’t do true lossless over Bluetooth.
I expect it’s fairly likely that with their custom silicon Apple may well come out with a new low-power higher bandwidth wireless protocol on future hardware.
In the meantime if you want lossless on headphones, buy a decent set with an analogue input!
The point is, they would have known they were going to starting using lossless music long before the latest round of over priced Dutch caps were released.
It's the total lack of joined up thinking that is becoming more apparent From Apple. iPhones that can shoot 4K, yet computers that couldn't edit the stuff easily. Took a few months for any 4K computers to be released.
They are doing more and more things arse about face.
Not quite.
The APM requires a digital signal. The cable is bi-directional with both a DAC/ADC built in. I would assume both are 24/48khz like the lightning to 3.5mm dongle.
This is how I'm interpreting it, Apple stupidly put the wired connection through some extra AD>DA conversion for no purpose other than having the APM with only a single lightning connection and not a pure analog signal path. [[EDIT] I guess they need it digital for the NC processing.]
It would mean when you plug the APM in wired, you have a D->A going from device to cable, the cable carries analog, gets translated A->D at the input to the headphones through the lightning connector, and then has to go back to analog to drive the speakers. I suppose the headphones need a digital signal in order for the signal to be processed for noise cancelling/transparency, and it would be somewhat niche for the cable to carry a complete digital signal to the headphones (would make it incompatible with traditional 3.5 analog output).
What they would have needded to support lossless is one of two things:
1: An ability to directly support analog input direct to speaker over a cable (which would probably mean noise cancelling/transparency would be disabled in this mode)
2: An ability to support a direct digital signal path from device->headphones that would receive the lossless signal and then apply the NC/transparency or whatever; this would also require the headphones to support the codec.
Unfortunately these are most likely not fixable without revising the hardware.
They really should stop having their separate teams working in bunkers where they aren't allowed to communicate with each other.
Last edited:
You might want to invest in one of these: https://www.audioquest.com/page/aq-dragonfly-series.html
You can hear a difference if you have good headphones. I have a pair of Shure SE-846 with custom molded ear inserts, Double Helix 8 strand wound cable. Does the trick.
You can hear a difference if you have good headphones. I have a pair of Shure SE-846 with custom molded ear inserts, Double Helix 8 strand wound cable. Does the trick.
Another option for lossless gear might be: https://www.shure.com/en-EU/products/earphones/kse1500
If both Bluetooth devices are capable of EDR (or Apple's HDR extension), the bandwidth to do (possibly losslessly compressed) lossless audio at least at CD quality should be possible, with one notable exception: there's no truly lossless audio codec for Bluetooth. The standard SBC codec is meh, and while AAC and MP3 are common, they're lossy. All the others (except LE LC3) are proprietary, and still lossy, although Qualcomm's AptX family and Sony's LDAC can deliver much better quality than MP3 or AAC.
That seems an opportunity. Codecs can be added. Apple made their ALAC lossless codec open-source and royalty-free back in 2011. That, or a slight modification more suited to the challenges, could be added as a Bluetooth codec, to be used only between suitable devices when sufficient bandwidth was possible (varies by range and obstacles).
That could perhaps be retrofitted in software or firmware on laptops and up, perhaps (at some power usage expense) on recent iPhones and iPads. It'd be more of a problem on existing Watch, AirPods, etc, where the power is very limited and where adding a codec in firmware may not be possible.
But new products could certainly support it; and if they went different and only kept it proprietary long enough to get a head start (say a year or less), they could create and lead the market for true lossless Bluetooth audio.
I'm not saying that's what they WILL do, but if I were them, I'd definitely think about it.
The lossless service is a big first step; and the rest should follow, one way or another.
That seems an opportunity. Codecs can be added. Apple made their ALAC lossless codec open-source and royalty-free back in 2011. That, or a slight modification more suited to the challenges, could be added as a Bluetooth codec, to be used only between suitable devices when sufficient bandwidth was possible (varies by range and obstacles).
That could perhaps be retrofitted in software or firmware on laptops and up, perhaps (at some power usage expense) on recent iPhones and iPads. It'd be more of a problem on existing Watch, AirPods, etc, where the power is very limited and where adding a codec in firmware may not be possible.
But new products could certainly support it; and if they went different and only kept it proprietary long enough to get a head start (say a year or less), they could create and lead the market for true lossless Bluetooth audio.
I'm not saying that's what they WILL do, but if I were them, I'd definitely think about it.
The lossless service is a big first step; and the rest should follow, one way or another.
I'm guessing actually that no headphones with noise-cancelling will "support" lossless in the same sense that the AirPods Max don't support it. This is because
1: you need a wired connection unless the ALAC codec is supported over Bluetooth, I don't believe any headphones meet this criteria.
2: the headphones need to have digital audio in order to process the noise-cancelling, I don't believe there are any headphones that take a wired digital input.
What this means is that the Apple Lossless will be converted to analog for the wired connection, and then converted back to digital at the headphones for processing. This extra step means that it cannot be called "lossless", since there will be some loss associated with this D->A->D conversion.
As long as the conversion is done well, this will probably mean the APM (and other noise-cancelling headphones over wired connection) will be **better** quality using the streamed Lossless Apple Music than they would be using the standard definition (since you are doing these conversions with a better quality source on the device). So they "support" the Lossless music in that sense, it just can't still be called lossless after these conversions.
1: you need a wired connection unless the ALAC codec is supported over Bluetooth, I don't believe any headphones meet this criteria.
2: the headphones need to have digital audio in order to process the noise-cancelling, I don't believe there are any headphones that take a wired digital input.
What this means is that the Apple Lossless will be converted to analog for the wired connection, and then converted back to digital at the headphones for processing. This extra step means that it cannot be called "lossless", since there will be some loss associated with this D->A->D conversion.
As long as the conversion is done well, this will probably mean the APM (and other noise-cancelling headphones over wired connection) will be **better** quality using the streamed Lossless Apple Music than they would be using the standard definition (since you are doing these conversions with a better quality source on the device). So they "support" the Lossless music in that sense, it just can't still be called lossless after these conversions.
Last edited: