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Logic doesn't work that way. If it did, umbrellas would be deemed useless as protection against the rain simply based on some people just bringing them, but not actually opening them and holding them over their heads when it rains.

Well said. The same sort of people of the not thinking it through kind will probably next tell us that brakes don’t work unless the engine stops working and that prisons don’t work if there still is crime.

Not sure if that problem with logic can be fixed.
 
How many people were at the party ?
43. Not all are presenting symptoms, but all 43 now have it. Including my 2 remaining grandparents in their early 90s that made it this far sharp, active, and physically fit.

Turns out, packing 43 people into a couple of rooms together for 12 hours of laughing hugging and singing songs in each other’s faces a couple feet apart is not a great way to avoid a highly contagious disease. Today is Christmas. Everyone I‘ve been texting Merry Christmas to has a full day ahead of making the rounds between their family parties. I would not want to be a doctor 2 weeks from now.
 
Maybe they shouldn't have opened in the first place.
lol...

Bye-bye...

Well said. The same sort of people of the not thinking it through kind will probably next tell us that brakes don’t work unless the engine stops working and that prisons don’t work if there still is crime.

Not sure if that problem with logic can be fixed.

At one stage, you gotta take a chance.... You can't stay closed forever......

The same sport of logic to "stay closed for longer" won't work either.... For how long for ? Just when you tink its safe, you could be back on closing up shop again..

By then, how much money would you have lost, trying to play smart?
 
lol...

Bye-bye...



At one stage, you gotta take a chance.... You can't stay closed forever......

The same sport of logic to "stay closed for longer" won't work either.... For how long for ? Just when you tink its safe, you could be back on closing up shop again..

By then, how much money would you have lost, trying to play smart?

I get your point. Nobody in their right mind - regardless of politics - likes living in lockdown.

At the same time, risks are well known and cases on the steep rise in many places. I’ll rather be less rich and have a ventilator spot available in my hospital rather than being richer and less alive.
 
43. Not all are presenting symptoms, but all 43 now have it. Including my 2 remaining grandparents in their early 90s that made it this far sharp, active, and physically fit.

Turns out, packing 43 people into a couple of rooms together for 12 hours of laughing hugging and singing songs in each other’s faces a couple feet apart is not a great way to avoid a highly contagious disease. Today is Christmas. Everyone I‘ve been texting Merry Christmas to has a full day ahead of making the rounds between their family parties. I would not want to be a doctor 2 weeks from now.

Wow. I can't imagine much social distancing at that party.
 
I get your point. Nobody in their right mind - regardless of politics - likes living in lockdown.

At the same time, risks are well known and cases on the steep rise in many places. I’ll rather be less rich and have a ventilator spot available in my hospital rather than being richer and less alive.
You aren’t going to die my guy. Are you in the risk group? You have to think bigger. Case count is large...death count is small and specific to certain groups. You aren’t necessarily worried about cases if you can keep the right people from getting the virus. We aren’t worried about flu cases or strep cases, right?

We don’t care if people get a virus or infection they recover from just fine at home...that’s still the case for most COVID patients.

Greatest good for greatest number still makes sense here and lockdowns even working is HIGHLY questionable. There is evidence spread occurs in private gatherings more than anything where no precautions are taken.
 
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We don’t care if people get a virus or infection
That's the unfortunate reality for many that often enough contributes to the problem.
Greatest good for greatest number still makes sense here and lockdowns even working is HIGHLY questionable. There is evidence spread occurs in private gatherings more than anything where no precautions are taken.
The ultimate underlying contributing issue is a basic one of humanity: people.
 
That's the unfortunate reality for many that often enough contributes to the problem.The ultimate underlying contributing issue is a basic one of humanity: people.
Don’t take it out of context. Before COVID, you weren’t wringing your hands when people got sick. Viruses aren’t a new thing.
 
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Don’t take it out of context. Before COVID, you weren’t wringing your hands when people got sick. Viruses aren’t a new thing.
Indeed, context is important. Not everything is the same even if the general concept might not be new.
 
Indeed, context is important. Not everything is the same even if the general concept might not be new.
It also may be more similar than it appears too. This is the new thing to freak out about and We’ve done a great job at that.
 
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It also may be more similar than it appears too. This is the new thing to freak out about and We’ve done a great job at that.

So basically you're saying: I'm unlikely to die, but many other people will, and I'm ok with that.

All the rationalizations you present can't escape that.
 
So basically you're saying: I'm unlikely to die, but many other people will, and I'm ok with that.

All the rationalizations you present can't escape that.
No, you can do things without being black and white about it. You don’t punish everyone (overwhelming majority aren’t impacted) and you protect and limit those who are in danger.
 
death count is small
Where do you get this stuff?! The death count is not small! Covid-19 is currently the leading cause of death in the US.

The US is at 350,000 deaths and climbing. Over the course of the year, it is the third highest cause of death in the United States only because the containment measures you keep denigrating kept the death rates lower after the initial surge. Since October when things had been reopened and the case count has soared, the death count has followed.

Everyday there are approximately 1800 deaths due to heart disease and 1650 due to cancer. The trailing 7 day average for Covid is 2400, which is probably artificially low due to the reporting delays through the holidays.

I hope and expect that the recent efforts at containment bring it down in the short term and the vaccine in the long term so that we don't find it becomes a bigger killer than heart disease or cancer for the year as a whole.

But that's the point-- wrongly saying we don't need to take precautions because the death count is "small" is exactly what guarantees it to be big.

We aren’t worried about flu cases or strep cases, right?
It also may be more similar than it appears too.

This is straight up misinformation. You are attempting to leverage what is not known about covid to undermine what is known.

You have been wrongly comparing this to the flu since the beginning, and using that as justification to downplay a response. This is not the flu. It is far worse than just about any flu in living memory-- the arguable exception being the 1918 flu where we did count cases carefully, we did put in place lockdowns and mask orders and medical science was so far behind today that they were still trying to bleed patients as a treatment and vaccines were still 20 years away. When we've been concerned about potential flu pandemics since we have also worried about and tracked cases. Fortunately those have been contained in a way that covid has not been, largely due to preexisting partial immunity, familiarity with influenza vaccines, and a much more rapid response than could be applied to this coronavirus.

You are making a false and dangerous comparison that too many people have been using it as justification to disregard actual scientific evidence and recommendations.

No, you can do things without being black and white about it. You don’t punish everyone (overwhelming majority aren’t impacted)

If you mean “dead”, don’t say “impacted”. A great majority has been impacted. You may be comfortable wrongly dismissing these deaths as people who already lived a full life, but the overwhelming majority don’t see it that way. They are impacted by the loss of friends, family and coworkers. They are impacted by the loss of friend’s, family’s and coworker’s friends, family and coworkers.

If there's any truth to your professional and academic claims, then presumably you know enough about behavioral economics to know that peoples' states of mind affect economic outcomes. You're simply wrong about both the health and economic implications of your world view.

you protect and limit those who are in danger.

How? You talk about this like infection is something people do to themselves. What’s more protected and limited than a prison? Yet those have been some of the worst outbreaks. In California prisons the death rate from covid is twice that in the general population of the state.

Or nursing homes. They've been locked down tightly for months, but outbreaks there continue.

The virus isn't spontaneously generating inside these facilities, it's getting brought in from the virus pool in the broader community. You protect those in danger by reducing the prevalence of the virus in the general population. Protecting and limiting only "those in danger", even if you could identify them all, is a ludicrously naive strategy. Saying "protect and limit them more" completely disregards how this virus spreads. There is no viable means to bubble boy every individual at risk.

lockdowns even working is HIGHLY questionable. There is evidence spread occurs in private gatherings more than anything where no precautions are taken.

Private gatherings are in violation of lockdown orders. So if spread were occurring mostly at private gatherings that in itself would be proof that lockdowns would help.

Furthermore, the actual data shows that most risk comes from restaurants, bars, gyms and churches.
Greatest good for greatest number
The greatest good for the greatest number is to keep the prevalence of the virus in the community low. This leads to the best health outcomes and the best economic outcomes. When there was doubt about the potential for a vaccine, I argued that meant keeping the rate of infection to something that the health care system could handle and that would allow the economy to operate to the extent possible. Now that we have an effective vaccine in distribution, any additional death due to covid should be seen as a preventable death and the window over which we're looking to manage this has been condensed to months. There is no excuse for arguing in favor of letting it rage out of control the way it has in the US over the past few months-- that is the least good for the greatest number of people.
 
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Where do you get this stuff?! The death count is not small! Covid-19 is currently the leading cause of death in the US.

The US is at 350,000 deaths and climbing. Over the course of the year, it is the third highest cause of death in the United States only because the containment measures you keep denigrating kept the death rates lower after the initial surge. Since October when things had been reopened and the case count has soared, the death count has followed.

Everyday there are approximately 1800 deaths due to heart disease and 1650 due to cancer. The trailing 7 day average for Covid is 2400, which is probably artificially low due to the reporting delays through the holidays.

I hope and expect that the recent efforts at containment bring it down in the short term and the vaccine in the long term so that we don't find it becomes a bigger killer than heart disease or cancer for the year as a whole.

But that's the point-- wrongly saying we don't need to take precautions because the death count is "small" is exactly what guarantees it to be big.




This is straight up misinformation. You are attempting to leverage what is not known about covid to undermine what is known.

You have been wrongly comparing this to the flu since the beginning, and using that as justification to downplay a response. This is not the flu. It is far worse than just about any flu in living memory-- the arguable exception being the 1918 flu where we did count cases carefully, we did put in place lockdowns and mask orders and medical science was so far behind today that they were still trying to bleed patients as a treatment and vaccines were still 20 years away. When we've been concerned about potential flu pandemics since we have also worried about and tracked cases. Fortunately those have been contained in a way that covid has not been, largely due to preexisting partial immunity, familiarity with influenza vaccines, and a much more rapid response than could be applied to this coronavirus.

You are making a false and dangerous comparison that too many people have been using it as justification to disregard actual scientific evidence and recommendations.



If you mean “dead”, don’t say “impacted”. A great majority has been impacted. You may be comfortable wrongly dismissing these deaths as people who already lived a full life, but the overwhelming majority don’t see it that way. They are impacted by the loss of friends, family and coworkers. They are impacted by the loss of friend’s, family’s and coworker’s friends, family and coworkers.

If there's any truth to your professional and academic claims, then presumably you know enough about behavioral economics to know that peoples' states of mind affect economic outcomes. You're simply wrong about both the health and economic implications of your world view.



How? You talk about this like infection is something people do to themselves. What’s more protected and limited than a prison? Yet those have been some of the worst outbreaks. In California prisons the death rate from covid is twice that in the general population of the state.

Or nursing homes. They've been locked down tightly for months, but outbreaks there continue.

The virus isn't spontaneously generating inside these facilities, it's getting brought in from the virus pool in the broader community. You protect those in danger by reducing the prevalence of the virus in the general population. Protecting and limiting only "those in danger", even if you could identify them all, is a ludicrously naive strategy. Saying "protect and limit them more" completely disregards how this virus spreads. There is no viable means to bubble boy every individual at risk.



Private gatherings are in violation of lockdown orders. So if spread were occurring mostly at private gatherings that in itself would be proof that lockdowns would help.

Furthermore, the actual data shows that most risk comes from restaurants, bars, gyms and churches.

The greatest good for the greatest number is to keep the prevalence of the virus in the community low. This leads to the best health outcomes and the best economic outcomes. When there was doubt about the potential for a vaccine, I argued that meant keeping the rate of infection to something that the health care system could handle and that would allow the economy to operate to the extent possible. Now that we have an effective vaccine in distribution, any additional death due to covid should be seen as a preventable death and the window over which we're looking to manage this has been condensed to months. There is no excuse for arguing in favor of letting it rage out of control the way it has in the US over the past few months-- that is the least good for the greatest number of people.

No reply from him. Interesting.
 
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