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really, once you can buy premium book content on your iPhone, then the kindle becomes pointless. It's a specialty device whose functionality will be absorbed by smartphones.

The trick is getting that premium content accessible on the iPhone.

arn

I totally agree - my 10-year old palm pilot could get premium releases for very cheap which was one of the absolute best features of it; I honestly can't make myself believe that Steve would say something like that. The logic doesn't make sense: apple never caters to the masses and 40% of people not reading are probably the 40% with IQs below 100 and not enough money or reasoning to buy apple products in the first place. Even if the fact that "no one reads" is true, apple usually is the company that changes the status quo and consistently shifts the dominant paradigm - if people aren't reading, Steve, make them read again! Even if that's too large of an undertaking or too noble a task, how hard could it possibly be to make a program that actually reads a large enough library of ebooks to be useful? Clearly the programming is not the issue, so get your team of lawyers on this, you don't have to blink an eye they'll take care of making the licensing deals, than you can charge as much as you'd like for the app as long as it costs less than the kindle people will buy it. Sit back, make profits, and encourage at least a few more people to read again!
 
I disagree with this last paragraph. The eReader is a free app that can download purchased ebooks from www.ereader.com, one of the largest ebook website out there. There, you can buy newspapers, magazines, textbooks, novels, etc. So there's plenty of content for these iPhone readers. The eReader is one of favorite app I've downloaded for my iPhone. It gets used daily.

Ditto. I have used it for years, first on my Palm E, then Palm TX, then iPod Touch since around June 2008. I read for 2-3 hours every day on my iPod Touch.

The article writer doesn't know much about ereading! :rolleyes:
 
The big problem with the Kindle is the market it is in. There are just not that many people reading books in the US. And for the majority of those that do read a couple of pages once in a while an iPhone or something similar will do just fine.

But if you try to read an entire book or read for hours at a time, eInk is just soo much better than any LCD display it is beyond comparison.

It's just that most people have an opinion without ever reading much or having seen a Kindle. But hey that's life, it's the same with opinions and *******s, everybody has one ;)

I remember something similar when the iPod was first introduced. :rolleyes:
 
Yeah.... somewhat true ....

... but I will say, in defense of Jobs, the man IS an American citizen, and uses an American frame of reference for pretty much everything he does. Apple succeeds in other countries despite his primarily American focus on design, not because of it. (Let's face it. Apple does their R&D work out of the state of California, mostly with testers using the devices somewhere around the Cuppertino area. They're not going to any great lengths to find out what the Chinese or the Germans are clamoring for.)

I'd have to (unfortunately) admit that Jobs is correct in his assessment, too. In the USA, I'd say it seems very accurate to me that a good 40% of the people don't really read books. BUT, that still means 3 out of every 5 *do* - AND, my own observations are, many of those who do read tend to read a LOT.

Really? I think the main reason a device like the Kindle isn't that exciting is because it's a "one trick pony". We all know the thing is basically a little computer inside, and it even has a decent sized LCD screen and keyboard. So one immediately starts asking, "Why is this crippled so all it can do is download and read books? I should have a whole tablet computer in something this size I carry around!" And THAT is hopefully where Apple will come through, one of these days.


Oh oh oh, Mr. Jobs, I've got some news for you:

1. people != US people
2. could it possibly be, that even the US people don't read too much partially because it is inconvenient to carry around tons of paper?

The above words by Jobs is an idiocy compared probably only to the well known Gates' opinion on ultimate computer RAM needs (for all of us, again). ;)
 
The big problem with the Kindle is the market it is in. There are just not that many people reading books in the US.

Well, YOU may have a big problem with Kindle's market, but Amazon seems quite happy with their sales. Not everything has to be a super-mass market success to be a profitable business. So it's a niche market ... so what? I like my Kindle, I love my iphone ... I look forward to my Kindle 2 arriving in two weeks.
 
:rolleyes: I always have to laugh when I read comments like this.
I am sure your post is flamebait, but I'm enjoying the discussion anyhow ;). Civilisation's been built on millennia of manuscripts and centuries of printed papers (which to the user are similar form to manuscript but with a different typeface). If you think a couple of decades of home computing is stronger than that, good luck to you: very occasionally, the established successes of history are eliminated.

You guys remind me of vinyl afficionados talking about the pleasure of dropping the needle..
If the 78s we had in storage were built like CDs I doubt they'd even still be readable, so at least this won't happen with the current generation of listeners :eek:.

as the convenience of and familiarity with digital technology speads, your numbers will continue to dwindle.
I brought myself up on a home computer, the consummate '80s geek; I got Internet access in 1994 and have seen it grow to be the vast information repository it is today. I am very familiar with the equipment sitting in front of and around me. For many purposes, it's still less convenient than a book.

Flipping through pages is slower
A well-printed and bound book allows me to scan through dozens of pages in a few seconds, using all 10 of my fingers to hold bookmarks, consult the index, keep multiple pages open at once (a book is 3 dimensional, a display is not!), etc. Flipping the pages on an e-book doesn't come close.

more error prone (easy to miss something while it's flipping by, especially if it's closer to the spine than the edge of the book)
As you read more, you'll find that your muscle memory adapts to the skill of page-turning ;).

and less convenient than a simple Spotlight-like search.
A Spotlight-like search is nothing like the type of search page-flipping allows. Perhaps you're thinking of looking up in the index, which is a different sort of operation. But yes, I wish electronic search engines came with even the simple analogue of the "bold" indexed entry to indicate the difference between a mention of and a description of some topic.

surely a scrollable list of page thumbnails or actual full size pages, can be just as good for getting to a page by sight?
Thumbnails clearly not, as they're.. small. As for scrolling.. see above for why it's nicer with a real book.

It's easy enough to do with a PDF on a desktop.
No, it isn't. A PDF copy of a book is useful for doing searches when a flipping and an index consultation fail, otherwise it's horribly inferior to flicking through a real book. To add to this, for desktop PDFs rendering is slower, resolution is lower, backlight is more straining, annotation is nigh on impossible, and my brain can't make a map between physical position and source of information (but don't let millions of years of evolution adapting me ideally to a physical environment get in the way of the march of technocratic progress)...

..and reading in the bath? How do you avoid getting the pages all soggy? Gloves?
Has H2G2 not taught you anything, dear reader?
 
I disagree completely Arn ... I love my iPhone, more so than my first generation Kindle, but there's no comparison between reading on an electronic ink based device and a standard screen. I'm reading Proust on my Kindle right now ... there's no way in hell I'd read a 30 page document on iPhone, never mind a 3000 page book.

Oh, but you might on a tablet by Apple slightly larger than the iphone width and length-wise.
 
Oh, but you might on a tablet by Apple slightly larger than the iphone width and length-wise.

No I wouldn't ... the Kindle is much easier to carry around than a tablet, the electronic ink is much easier on the eyes and there's no way in hell that I want to read a long document on a multitouch device, with all the smudges on the screen. Look, I'll buy the tablet if Apple makes it, but I won't use it for ebooks. Let's face it, the Kindle works, it's a success ... a niche market, yes, but so what? Steve Jobs was wrong, enough people read books to make for a profitable device.
 
Reading long passages of text on the iPhone or computer is tedious. I'm not interested.

I pre-ordered a Kindle2 yesterday. The ability to wirelessly order books and have them delivered instantly is compelling. The display looks like a vast improvement over an iPhone, Palm, or computer. It's also a great way to carry many books on trips without having to lug them around.

I really don't get this whole "I can just read on my iPhone" thing. I just can't see myself slogging through a 1000 page novel on my iPhone. I think my eyes would burn through their sockets.

Steve's comment about reading was dumb especially given Apples history of marketing to the educational sector. Then again, there is a lot of dumb at Apple lately. I'm ordering 4 more carts of 30 laptops for my school. We have some macs, but they are no longer an option with $500 netbooks. Apple wouldn't budge on price at all. I can't justify macs anymore. What school can?
 
I'm not trying to kill anyone's love of books, but I read more now than I ever could before, because I have the ereader app on my ipod touch. To provide the flip point of view to Veri's post, I list here some points to why I now read more:
1. Easy to read - I'm not staring at/near a light source, just reflected light;
I can read in bed with the light off, allowing my wife to sleep.

2. A physical size appropriate to the material - there's an art to page layout, and a technical text is not a fiction paperback;
The fiction is in the story for me, not the page.

3. Can have 2, sometimes 3, pages open at once without the need to resize;
I'm not sure what the above means, but if I am reading it correctly I would counter that I can carry loads of books with me. Sometimes I get tired of a particular story and will pick a new one to read.

4. Can annotate with a comfortable, soft pencil;
Ya got me there. However, I would be loathe to write on any of my books that were not from my university days.

5. Original text and annotations at a fantastic resolution;
*shrug* kind of the same as point 1 and 2

6. Can be taken into the bathroom - how I love to read in the bath;
I read it in the bathroom. Never read a book in the shower though.;)

7. If lost or damaged, most don't cost the earth to replace;
This is true. But it is also true if I am losing my web browser, contacts book, music player, video player... you see where I am going with this? The one nice thing though... I can quickly replace all the digital content on the new player. I also have the benefit of using the reader meant for computers.

8. Heuristic "I saw it on or around that page" search algorithms quicker by flipping through pages rather than typing in page numbers then clicking forward/back;
Bookmarks and highlights. There is also a search feature. Search "I knew him Horatio."

9. Allows wider overview or review of book or chapter through more aggressive page-flipping, with semi-conscious memory reinforcement;
I'll give you this because I don't even understand what the benefit is.

10. Can lend book for an hour or so to friend in class / on train / at work without giving them short tutorial on how to use book;
I can lend it to someone forever. My son and I often read the same book at the same time and discuss the story.

11. Finding a book on a well-organised bookshelf is quicker than locating and opening an e-book, as well as allowing the eye to take in a huge list of related books with cues on size/shape/etc to help identify and remember them;
There is no way this is easier on a real bookshelf... sorry.

12. Indeed, recollection from a physical book seems easier as information can be associated with a particular page and its nuances: the physical layout, the weight of each side of the book, the angle at which you held it, how easy the page was to open, perhaps a slight change in ink tone, a blemish...
I thinking this is stretching the issue and looking for items to add to the list.

13. A good index is almost always sufficient, and the act of scanning through the index helps either jog memory or provide related words (as better electronic search engines are learning to emulate).
You use an index when reading fiction?

If reading on a Kindle is bad, then reading on an iPhone is like squinting at a text through the keyhole of a prison door - sure, the information is there, and to some people that's good enough, but what inefficiency, sterility, and strain on the eyes!
It's not. You can adjust font size and brightness to suit your needs.

The ipod is also easy to read with one hand. Something I often do while lying on my side. Some other considerations:
- I can get a new book any time of day
- the book never goes into landfill
- I would guess that the carbon footprint for printing a book, delivering it to a store, driving there to get it and return home is greater than downloading the digital copy.

I know a lot of what I have pointed out is a little tongue in cheek, but the original list would be like me going through everything a book cannot do that an iPod can. I think it's great that people are still reading, especially my own kids.
 
Two more things:

I agree with many of you, paper is never going anywhere, period. When laptops first came out news reporters couldn't stop blabbering about how books won't exist any time now.

I just remembered that in one of the current iPhone ads, they make a point of advertising Classics and the ability to read books on the phone so clearly they know the market is there and are intentionally pushing it.
 
Well, YOU may have a big problem with Kindle's market, but Amazon seems quite happy with their sales. Not everything has to be a super-mass market success to be a profitable business. So it's a niche market ... so what? I like my Kindle, I love my iphone ... I look forward to my Kindle 2 arriving in two weeks.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. I think that they could have a lot more success dropping the price a bit and selling it all over Europe for example.
 
No I wouldn't ... the Kindle is much easier to carry around than a tablet, the electronic ink is much easier on the eyes and there's no way in hell that I want to read a long document on a multitouch device, with all the smudges on the screen. Look, I'll buy the tablet if Apple makes it, but I won't use it for ebooks. Let's face it, the Kindle works, it's a success ... a niche market, yes, but so what? Steve Jobs was wrong, enough people read books to make for a profitable device.

Hahaha that was funny, I like how you slipped in that "look, I'll buy a tablet if Apple makes it."
 
Even if only 10% of Americans read three or more novels per year that's still an enormous market, just maybe not one that Jobs is particularly interested in.

The folks talking about reading an entire novel on a device with a back lit LCD type screen are pretty humorous, it's simply a ridiculous proposition for most people. LCD and other back lit displays cause eye strain, it's difficult to hold a tiny device steady for reading for hours at a stretch, etc.

The reality is that printed books will be supplanted by e-ink display devices, whether or not Jobs thinks it's a viable market.

Someone made the comment about not being able to read an e-ink device on a plane during take off and landing. They should also point out the difficulty of choosing which single hard cover book to pack during a week long business trip since that's about all the room you have. With the Kindle you can not only pack multiple books for your trip, you can buy extra ones wherever you happen to wind up in the US that has Sprint coverage.

As to the price argument. Yes, the Kindle is expensive but it includes a lifetime wireless subscription. For someone that might buy 2-3 hard cover books a month at a cost of $50 it's not really an expensive option to buy a $359 Kindle and then spend $9.99 for books that can be displayed in the same font size as a hard cover novel.

I fully expect Kindle 2 will outsell Kindle 1 and will assure that we will see future e-ink display devices for a long, long time.
 
Expensive and R1

I just find this whole thing just down right funny. There is definitely a huge opportunity for SanDisk, Creative, Microsoft, or any other MP3 developer to take this market over - very, very quickly.

Seriously, considering what you can get for $359 in the form of multimedia devices this is way over priced: 6 fonts, 16 shades of gray, 3G only ("no hunting for Wi-Fi hotspots"), "Faster Page Turns", etc. Come on.

I don't care what kind of electronic device it is, in this day and age you can't possibly be excited about a new product with 6 fonts or 16 shades of gray.

I swear they didn't hire professionals to develop the OS or design the product. Check out their demos, the page turning is slow and obviously flawed (it is choppy). How is that even possible with today's technology? Are they recycling old alarm clock processors? It just isn't possible to have such archaic technology sold - is this a repackaged dollar store game for kids?

Did anyone notice the keyboard? Looks like five rows of aliens from space invaders or Galaga.

Kindle 2 = small garage project from couple students release 1.
 
The fiction is in the story for me, not the page.
No idea can be said to exist unless it can be expressed. If the physical page does not influence how you read, why do so many books share similar features of typesetting? Why aren't the books full of irregular colour and type, and irregular arrangements of letters?

I'm not sure what the above means, but if I am reading it correctly I would counter that I can carry loads of books with me.
I mean that a book, being three dimensional, allows me to look at, say, 3 pages at once without having to resize any of the pages.

Ya got me there. However, I would be loathe to write on any of my books that were not from my university days.
Many of the books I read for leisure are an extension of those from my university days - am I the only person to find a technical, scientific or mathematical book (for the layman or for the expert) as worthwhile a casual read as fiction? Anyway, I write in soft pencil partly not to harm my book.

Bookmarks and highlights.
This isn't the same as the fuzzy searching you do when flipping through a book.

There is also a search feature. Search "I knew him Horatio."
If you hadn't read it before but just wanted to find the speech out of the blue then, yes, an electronic search engine is your best weapon. Would also be good if you hadn't read it for a while and had completely forgotten the context.

I'll give you this because I don't even understand what the benefit is.
By flipping through a book you're looking at information again, reinforcing it in your mind. If we're just talking about casual fiction reading, perhaps irrelevant. If your idea of a fun read is something more technical, then it can help reinforce your learning. If I pick up a book for the first time (again, this won't apply necessarily to fiction), then I'll do lots of random flipping and allowing my brain to take in section headers, figures, perhaps any results/theorems that are highlighted, which I can do more easily with fingers and thumbs than a scrollbar.

My son and I often read the same book at the same time and discuss the story.
Your son is not a stranger and probably already knows how to use the e-book software. The average non-technical friend might not appreciate having to be tutored on using your hardware just to share a few pages from a book.

I thinking this is stretching the issue and looking for items to add to the list.
On the contrary, probably my main reason for preferring physical books is that I recall better from something I've read on printed paper than from a display.

You use an index when reading fiction?
We're definitely at cross purposes :D. I'm referring to all kinds of reading, as is probably obvious by now.

It's not. You can adjust font size and brightness to suit your needs.
I could do that on a hypothetical e-book reader on my digital watch, but the screen is still smaller and offers a different lighting. No amount of typeface changing/light beaming into my eyes is going to make it easier to read.

The ipod is also easy to read with one hand. Something I often do while lying on my side.
I prefer a stand, and holding with zero hands. ;)

the book never goes into landfill - I would guess that the carbon footprint for printing a book, delivering it to a store, driving there to get it and return home is greater than downloading the digital copy.
The fact that it was possible to get books centuries ago pretty much confirms that the infrastructure, and corresponding energy consumption, required to build and power your e-book reader and deliver you an electronic book... I'll stick with walking to my local library :D.
 
I guess it really doesn't bother some people, but this is beyond me, and I've had a similarly-sized Psion Series 3a (still the nicest screen and keyboard of any palmtop I've ever used) since about 1993. It's not just that two full pages mean I don't have to use my hands so often, but that my head takes in information better with more context in a fixed layout and sometimes I like to re-read the previous paragraph or whatever.

When I'm reading maths, which is more often than not, the lack of context would make such a small screen intolerable, but I accept that it may be more acceptable for fiction read sequentially.


Do you find it's as easy on your eyes as paper? I'm the type of person who turns his display brightness to the minimum comfortable for reading, so I'll end up changing it two or three times per day as the daylight changes. But for books I prefer moderate sunlight or a good amount of rear light for technical work - the clearer the contrast the better I take in information - and a dimmer light for fiction. Maybe I'm just odd :D.

No, not as easy as paper, but close enough that I didn't care. I read enough to tell you that after 3 days of reading (about 4hrs a day), my eyes did not feel any more tired than reading a paperback (I'm 40 and don't wear glasses). Reading for 4hrs on my iphone took about 1/3 of my battery life with the default AUTO backlight settings and wifi left on. I'm familure with the Psion you mentioned and there is no contest in the screens. The pixel density of the iphone really allows for razor sharp fonts and the default one with Stanza looks exactly like what you'd find in a paperback. I would only recommend the iphone for fiction/paperback novels, not for more more technical formats.

The Kindel with e-ink is a better reader, no doubt, but not enough for me (casual reader) to buy one. If it handled PDF's perfectly, I might be interested as I have lots of technical manuals in PDF that I would love to have easy access to.
 
As to the price argument. Yes, the Kindle is expensive but it includes a lifetime wireless subscription. For someone that might buy 2-3 hard cover books a month at a cost of $50 it's not really an expensive option to buy a $359 Kindle and then spend $9.99 for books that can be displayed in the same font size as a hard cover novel.

As I mentioned earlier, the price isn’t all that bad if you only need one. It’s been my experience, however, that households don’t only have one person who reads. If you have two parents and two children who all read, it would cost over $1400 for each to have their own Kindle. That’s outrageously expensive. Sure, they could share, but what happens when they all want to read at the same time?

The price simply has to come down or this really will be a niche product. I’ll ask the question again: is Amazon trying to make money selling readers or selling books? Selling hardware or selling content?
 
Ironic isn't it?

Many are bashing the Kindle, despite its tremendous success, yet in another thread they will praise :apple:TV which isnt exactly a barn burner.

I wonder what reception this device would have it an :apple: logo was on it? I wager everyone would line up to get one.

I am contemplating getting one with my first quarter bonus. 300 would be a more palatable price point
 
I wouldn't read novels on an iPhone, just like I wouldn't use Kindle for long-term internet browsing (they have free access to Wikipedia, and access to blogs).

And really, anyone who's saying that they can read novels off the iPhone have either never tried to read off their mobile phone for hours, or don't know the benefits of an eReader. The device requires no power unless I "flip" pages. That's why this device can last for weeks at a time. The only thing that prevents the device from lasting forever is batteries lose charge over time, even when they're not being used. That's it.


And yes, Steve Jobs is wrong. People read, but not only novels. Lots of people who don't read novels will read a newspaper or magazine. You can subscribe through Kindle and it'll automatically be delivered to you. How nice. ;) Also, people read blogs, and you can subscribe to them on Kindle.


Saying that, Amazon needs to get the Kindle outside of the US, possibly in Canada, and then Europe. Personally, I'm still waiting for an A4 sized e-reader.
 
Apple should...

Regardless of whether Apple thinks the dedicated reader market is a good one or not. Apple should come out with a standard Reader Application and e-Book format so this segment of the App Store is sorted out... Currently there are many different readers of many different books this is clearly mad.
 
And 3G seems like overkill for a device that's delivering small amounts of text. Isn't EVDO cheaper and more reliable? Is there some plan to shut down the EVDO network? 3G reliability just isn't there yet.

EVDO = 3G. EVDO is the term Sprint (as well as Verizon) use for there 3G network.
 
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