+ 1. It's also funny reading people complaining about the price on a mac forum.
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Amazon Unveils Kindle 2, eBooks for the iPhone?
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+ 1. It's also funny reading people complaining about the price on a mac forum.
I think in the end, most of the complaints about the Kindle come down to one thing: the price.
Early in the message thread, I said that if Amazon were to offer a version of Kindle 2 that deleted the EVDO modem in favor of the USB 2.0 port to upload content, it would surprisingly sell well, since it may substantially cut the cost of the device. I mean, would you buy a Kindle 2 if it cost US$200 to US$220 because of no EVDO modem and the supporting cost of EVDO wireless access?
One thing I do really like about the Kindle is you can adjust the font size, which means people with poor vision can still read the book. I cite for example Tom Clancy's really long novel Executive Orders--in the original hardback version, it is written in such a small font that it's impossible to read for many readers without a magnifying lens or a really good pair of reading glasses. With something like a Kindle, you can adjust the font display size so even people with poorer vision can read it comfortably.
Early in the message thread, I said that if Amazon were to offer a version of Kindle 2 that deleted the EVDO modem in favor of the USB 2.0 port to upload content, it would surprisingly sell well, since it may substantially cut the cost of the device. I mean, would you buy a Kindle 2 if it cost US$200 to US$220 because of no EVDO modem and the supporting cost of EVDO wireless access?
One thing I do really like about the Kindle is you can adjust the font size, which means people with poor vision can still read the book. I cite for example Tom Clancy's really long novel Executive Orders--in the original hardback version, it is written in such a small font that it's impossible to read for many readers without a magnifying lens or a really good pair of reading glasses. With something like a Kindle, you can adjust the font display size so even people with poorer vision can read it comfortably.
I have an Iphone but would never read a book on it. I am considering buying a Kindle. The only thing making me hesitate is the very limited choice of books. Iphone screen is not suitable for book reading. Not just the size, but LCD is not made for reading, and I certainly don't want to worry about battery when I'm reading.
The idea of using an Iphone as an ebook reader is just as ridiculous as using the Kindle to make phone calls.
What does how much were paying for internet or phone service have to do with buying a device that none of us actually need?
Nobody needs an e-reader. It is a device that is trying to get people to change the way they do something now. Now, we read books. The e-reader is supposed to make us want to give up real books for virtual books. When most people who read books dont want to change from real to virtual, things like the initial cost of investment matter a great deal. Who wants to pay a bunch of money for something theyre not sure they need and theyre not sure theyre going to like?
And what about households with multiple readers? Every reader in the house really needs their own. Should a family of four spend over $1400 to properly equip their household? Thats a great deal of money to most families, especially if its something they dont really need.
I had that hope, too. However, the second generation Kindle costs the same as the first. That is an unusual way to try to grow a market.
Ill ask the question once again: is Amazon trying to make money selling e-readers or books? Selling hardware or content?
In my opinion, in order for something like the Kindle to really take off, the price has to come down significantly and Amazon has to find some way for families to get multiple units at a discount.
I think Amazon is more interested in selling the milk than the cow.
If Kindle 2 can continue to generate buzz and focus attention on downloadable books, Amazon would be more than happy to sell a device with tiny market share and dominate the market for selling the actual books.
Since Apple is more interested in selling devices than content and Amazon already has a critical mass of book content, I could definitely see a next-gen, larger iPod touch being marketed the way the current touch is now with the addition of the ability to easily download and read books from Amazon.
You could say the same for iPhone/current touch, but I don't think book-reading is going to become a big hit on smaller devices.
Actually all the books are $10 including current hardcover only books.
Plus you get the covenience of buying sold out books.
Humor noted, but the broader point is the differences in the technologies for their compatibility to potentially hostile environments.
Key question here is the owner's willingness to risk an expensive device that has a catastrophic failure mode versus a cheap device that doesn't have as ugly of a crash?
As such, while the eBook might open some doors, it isn't without its trade-offs that close others. FWIW, in addition to environmental hazards of rain, let's not forget beach sand, suntan lotion and heat soak (sunny beach, or inside a parked automobile in the summer) as well as simply being dropped. These environments are killing off a good number of latptops, cellphones and digital cameras each year.
It does, but also doesn't, solve these things.
Acquisiton: costs are the same (to higher), depending on retention criteria.
Transport: yes, you can transport more per unit mass/volume. However, how frequent/common is the need to simultaneously transport more than just a few? And when there is such a need, is it relegated to a particular niche? For example, as a student, I would have loved to have had a Kindle replace having to carry 3-4 big textbooks at once. However, if college textbooks aren't commercially available in e-form (and capable of being notated), then the technology isn't really able to be leveraged.
Storage: while technologically more compact, is it as survivable? Specifically, how many of us make adequate redundant backups of our hard drives now?
In any event, this assumes that the eBook is going to be kept ad-infinitum after purchase, and not taken down to the used book store to recoup storage space AND part of its original purchase price. Pragmatically, the only time that I'm carrying more than 2-3 books is:
a) On my way home from the bookstore
b) Packing for a vacation.
c) Transporting technical material for business (previously: a stack of textbooks in school)
For (b), we often pack our books "one way", giving them away to people we meet en route, which lightens our luggage for the return trip home (room for souveniers, if applicable).
For (c), this is similar to what I mentioned above with school textbooks: the more specialized source material, the less likely it is to be digitized, etc.
I would say "Value", although these are very similar things ... and FWIW, I don't have an iPhone for the same reason.
The only way that it would appear to me that the Kindle is a good financial value is for the reader who routinely buys all New York Times bestsellers as soon as they become available ... but who actually follows-through and reads all of their purchases promptly, before the first run hardbacks go on discount. Afterwords, they have to then place that volume in their library or otherwise give away / lose the book without recovering any of its residual value.
-hh
I must disagree with Apples' view that there isn't much of a market in reading. Every time I go into a Barnes and Noble or Borders, the stores are packed. People hang out there, drink coffee and enjoy themselves.
I read an average of 6 books a month. I buy from half.ebay.com for 75 cents plus shipping. Or from local library bookstores. This is about half of what it would cost to purchase these from Amazon. With the initial outlay to buy the Kindle, plus the book costs, it just isn't cost effective.
I have two ebook readers on my iPhone. They are adequate for my needs. I will be chomping on the bit while waiting for an application for my iPhone that will allow me access to new titles.
I read an average of 6 books a month. I buy from half.ebay.com for 75 cents plus shipping. Or from local library bookstores. This is about half of what it would cost to purchase these from Amazon. With the initial outlay to buy the Kindle, plus the book costs, it just isn't cost effective.
I have two ebook readers on my iPhone. They are adequate for my needs. I will be chomping on the bit while waiting for an application for my iPhone that will allow me access to new titles.
Please don't generalize Americans with "people".
I read a few novels a week. I have a friend who read a book or 2 a day.
Kindle has many Terry Pratchett paperbacks, but the cost savings vs a hardcopy is less than $1 each. Its going to take a long time recoup that $360 Kindle.
Getting a sold out book merely requires some patience. And even so, that's not the same thing as a book that's "Out of Print".
For example, while Kindle does have the recently published "Castles of Steel" (Massie; 2003), it doesn't have "U-Boat War in the Caribbean (Gaylord Kelshall; 1994), nor do I expect it to get Kelshall's work anytime soon: it simply isn't cost effective.
Trying to be a bit less specialized, looking at travel guidebooks (an area where it is nice to have "5 books" with you, there's zero Kindles on Rough Guide or Lonely Planet. A few Rick Steves (all newest editions); will have to wonder how his ink illustrations do. Looking south to the Caribbean, there's several recent & current guidebooks in printed form for scuba diving in the Cayman islands ... by Lawson Wood, Steven Frink, Bill Harrigan, Jesse Cancelmo, Tim Rock, Skip Harper & others ... which are all absent from Kindle. At first glance, it would appear that a color-illustration centric work is probably a major void for Kindle at present.
-hh
PS: the definitive grandaddy is Shlomo Cohen's "Cayman Diver's Guide" ISBN 965-362-0053 (1990). Available off of Amazon, if you do an advanced search to locate it.
Kindle vs. iPhone
The Kindle has a bigger, wider screen. I don't have one (it's still too expensive), but it looks like it would be reasonably comfortable for reading books on: it seems to provide a book-like experience, which is important to some of us.
The iPhone has a very nice screen, but I can't imagine sitting around and reading on it for more than say 20 minutes at a time or so. The screen is too small, which is not optimal for reading longer items.
Jim
The Kindle has a bigger, wider screen. I don't have one (it's still too expensive), but it looks like it would be reasonably comfortable for reading books on: it seems to provide a book-like experience, which is important to some of us.
The iPhone has a very nice screen, but I can't imagine sitting around and reading on it for more than say 20 minutes at a time or so. The screen is too small, which is not optimal for reading longer items.
Jim
I've decided to get an e-reader but now I'm wavering between the Bebook, the Cybook (because of your enthusiasm), and the Kindle. Could you give me (us) an idea of why you chose the Cybook over the alternatives? much appreciated
If I want a book, can I not just download it onto my iphone to read it? C'mon, to me that's pretty much a useless gadget; especially once the flexible oled screens hit the market. So something like the iphone makes the functionality of the kindle obsolete already and something like a flexible oled screen puts its design to shame, hence I give the kindle another two years to dwindle.
Exactly. I am actually surprised that people are buying that bag of hurt for such a ridiculously high price. For the moment, nothing replaces a real book (you can't read more than one at the same time, anyway). iPods are perfect to carry music and watch movies on the go; the same analogy does NOT apply for the Kindle and the act of reading a book on an electronic display.
No wonder Apple did not enter that market; the Kindle is DEAD.
While you cant actually read more than one book at the same time, it is not at all uncommon for people to be in the process of reading more than one book at a time (for instance, reading a novel and a work of non-fiction; many people have more than one book "in progress" at one time). Furthermore, in cases like vacations, its not unusual to want to bring multiple books along. The Kindle would be very handy for these scenarios.
One of the major features of the Kindle is the e-Ink display. Reading a display of this nature is much closer to reading print on paper than reading a backlit electronic display. It's obvious you have developed your opinion without having any experience with e-Ink displays.
Typical quote from someone who hasnt really looked into the particulars. It seems the vast majority of people who make comments like this have never held an eReader in their hands and experienced how nice these units can be.
Yes, the price is too high. There are, however, many reasons why the Kindle may eventually succeed; they have built a very nice device that does one thing really well.
And thats all it really needs to do.
Wow, Jobs sounds like an idiot: even if 40% of Americans read less than a book a year, this still leaves 60% who read more. And I doubt the ratio has changed drastically over the decades.
In any case, readers make up a much, much larger part of the population, than Apple purchasers and users. By his own logic, Jobs should just give up on making PCs.
Also, the iPhone sucks as an ereader. I have an iPhone, as well as two ereaders (both e-ink). Apart from being too small, the iPhone's screen will kill your eyes if you stare at it for extended periods of time.
The e-ink technology, on the other hand, is as good as a book page, if not better, on the eyes, in my experience. I actually much prefer reading a book on my ereader than a paperback (and even a hard-cover).
P.S. BRLawyer, you have no clue what you are talking about. Such strong opinions about ereaders, yet you don't know the most basic things about them. Have you even seen one close up?
In any case, readers make up a much, much larger part of the population, than Apple purchasers and users. By his own logic, Jobs should just give up on making PCs.
Also, the iPhone sucks as an ereader. I have an iPhone, as well as two ereaders (both e-ink). Apart from being too small, the iPhone's screen will kill your eyes if you stare at it for extended periods of time.
The e-ink technology, on the other hand, is as good as a book page, if not better, on the eyes, in my experience. I actually much prefer reading a book on my ereader than a paperback (and even a hard-cover).
P.S. BRLawyer, you have no clue what you are talking about. Such strong opinions about ereaders, yet you don't know the most basic things about them. Have you even seen one close up?
Sure.
Besides the Kindle store on amazon.com, the MobiPocket format is the most widely used. It is owned by amazon, separate from the kindle store. What is important, though, is that a device with MobiPocket file format support has a lot of books to choose from. I also chose the Cybook because of the size; it's very small and light. It's about 60% of the weight of the Kindle 2, so it's a lot more comfortable to hold if you have your arms up and are lying on your back in bed or something.
That being said, I really think you need to eliminate the BeBook from your list. It doesn't have MobiPocket support, so you're limited to your documents in being .doc, .pdf, .txt, or .html. Not many publishers publish eBooks in those formats. They are all published in Kindle format (which happens to be MobiPocket format with different DRM), MobiPocket format, or what the Sony Reader uses. The BeBook would be extremely limited in that regard. It just doesn't have books to choose from that it can read.
Also, you should consider support. Bookeen (the makers of the Cybook) don't have the best support. They're pretty non-existent, but it's not too big of a deal considering mine works fine. The Kindle, if you can stand it's enormous size probably has the best features. You can count on Amazon persuading publishers to release eBooks so you'll always have a great selection, and it does offer some nice features.
Kindle
Pros: Good support, selection, features
Cons: Ugly, very large
Cybook
Pros: Great looking, small, light, good selection
Cons: Not great support, slightly worse selection than Kindle store
Bebook
Pros: None
Cons: You can't read books unless they were published in pdf, which is not nearly as good formatting wise as Mobipocket/Kindle/Sony formats.
As I said above, the main reasons for Kindle's failure are as follows:
- price, ridiculously high for a monochromatic display that serves only as a (bad) reader;
- people don't "shuffle" books as they do with music or movies; at most, they try to read 2 books at the same time. Whoever does differently is an exception - in fact, Jobs is absolutely right when he says that people read few books nowadays, mainly due to the information overload they face everyday;
- sorry, a grey-shade display doesn't do it for me and many more; books are published in a plethora of different paper types and colors, a versatility that does not exist with the bag of hurt called Kindle.
- again: $350 for a grey-shade reader? No go.
I like Amazon and order a lot of PAPER books from them...they should just stick to their core business.
Excuse me?! You read books with colored pages or type?!!! Figures....
"monochromatic display that serves only as a (bad) reader"?! You are apparently completely ignorant of the technology behind e-ink. It's supposed to look like paper, it's much easier on the eyes than any computer screen, and it draws practically no power when a page is displayed.
It is BETTER, IMO, than reading a book: the light is distributed evenly on a perfectly flat page, the font size can be adjusted to suit the user.
And what are you talking about, "...they try to read 2 books at the same time."?
You miss the point by a mile. Kind of like saying nobody should buy books to put on a shelf at home, because they can always check out 2 or 3 books at a time from the library. I like having a bunch of books with me, particularly when traveling, or if I just want to check something quickly.
The price is high, but for many it's worth it (the Sony PRS505 is around $270, as are a lot of the Hanlin-derived ereaders.) Similarly, some will argue that Apple products are overpriced, but there is obviously a market.
Again, don't spout about stuff with which you are so clearly unfamiliar.
Is Steve Jobs Nuts
He says "nobody" reads anymore. "40%" of the people read one book or less. So that means the MAJORITY of the people, 60% read! Duh. Jobs is a smart guy, but he's wrong on this one. eBooks on the iPhone (or larger iPhone device) would be a big hit in the market.
He says "nobody" reads anymore. "40%" of the people read one book or less. So that means the MAJORITY of the people, 60% read! Duh. Jobs is a smart guy, but he's wrong on this one. eBooks on the iPhone (or larger iPhone device) would be a big hit in the market.
Boy this thread is making me feel ancient
I bought the Sony PRS 500 way back when, got B&H Photo in NY to send it to Europe. Having lived with reading a ton of books on the Palm Vx and descendants, it was a revelation. Yeah Sony's desktop crap-ware sucked, but their DRM laden store was even worse, so I never bothered using it and just uploaded directly via USB.
The thing is, I haven't bothered upgrading to the 505, or <shudder> the Kindle, because it works. I load 8-10 books on it (or more if necessary), recharge it once in a while, and otherwise treat it like a paperback. I would never treat my iPhone the way I treat the 500, and it's been everywhere (except underwater). It's easy on the eyes and, like my 'real' books, does one thing well -- lets me read.
The Kindle, on the other hand, may well be a success. I will not buy it, because it tries to do things that my phone or laptop does better, while having a godawful design that the 500 thankfully avoided. I'm waiting to see what Plastic Logic is going to come up with before I'll feel the urge to splurge.
On a final note: As a voracious book reader (at least a couple a week) I'm really astonished by some of the statements in this thread. To see if this was true, I randomly asked 17 colleagues in my office how many books they read in a month. Depressingly, only three said one or more. Baffling and sad. With this (admittedly non-representative) sample, what chance do the classics have? Harry Potter wins over Homer (no, not Simpson ).
Ech, didn't mean to go all..... whatever, it's just that the spreading illiteracy really bugs me (gaming, mags, rss, texting and twitter is great and all, but high literature it ain't). Anything Kindle can do to mitigate this is to be applauded. I just wish it looked more.... like a book?
I bought the Sony PRS 500 way back when, got B&H Photo in NY to send it to Europe. Having lived with reading a ton of books on the Palm Vx and descendants, it was a revelation. Yeah Sony's desktop crap-ware sucked, but their DRM laden store was even worse, so I never bothered using it and just uploaded directly via USB.
The thing is, I haven't bothered upgrading to the 505, or <shudder> the Kindle, because it works. I load 8-10 books on it (or more if necessary), recharge it once in a while, and otherwise treat it like a paperback. I would never treat my iPhone the way I treat the 500, and it's been everywhere (except underwater). It's easy on the eyes and, like my 'real' books, does one thing well -- lets me read.
The Kindle, on the other hand, may well be a success. I will not buy it, because it tries to do things that my phone or laptop does better, while having a godawful design that the 500 thankfully avoided. I'm waiting to see what Plastic Logic is going to come up with before I'll feel the urge to splurge.
On a final note: As a voracious book reader (at least a couple a week) I'm really astonished by some of the statements in this thread. To see if this was true, I randomly asked 17 colleagues in my office how many books they read in a month. Depressingly, only three said one or more
. Baffling and sad. With this (admittedly non-representative) sample, what chance do the classics have? Harry Potter wins over Homer (no, not Simpson ).Ech, didn't mean to go all..... whatever, it's just that the spreading illiteracy really bugs me (gaming, mags, rss, texting and twitter is great and all, but high literature it ain't). Anything Kindle can do to mitigate this is to be applauded. I just wish it looked more.... like a book?
The price is too high, but its not a bad reader. Youre mixing some valid points with some completely invalid points. The kindle actually is a good reader.
It is true that people dont shuffle books the way they do movies and music. However, there are many people who have a need or desire to be able to carry more than one or two at a time. Once again, you take a valid point and mix it with an invalid point.
While it would be nice to have a color display (and they are working on that; the technologys just not there yet), the vast majority of books Ive read do not have color imagery in them. Certainly there are cases (non-fiction with photographs, for instance) where this would be nice, but a gray-scale display is certainly adequate for a good percentage of books.
If you believe a color display is necessary to make this device worthwhile, that is indeed a valid reason not to buy the present design. That doesn't mean that the Kindle will fail, just that it doesn't have every feature it needs just yet. If color is a requirement just wait until next year; Kindle 3 will almost certainly provide that capability.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the biggest issue with the Kindle (the price, not the gray-shade bit). Youre right, the price must come down.
If they stuck with their core business, they wouldnt be the largest e-tailer in the world.
I think Amazon is the one company that has a chance to make e-readers viable; they're the largest book retailer and one of the largest electronics retailers. In my opinion, the present design doesnt have any technical showstoppers (unless you consider color a requirement, in which case you need to wait a year). They do need to address the price and how they are going to get multiple units into multiple reader households.
i think this thing is too expensive. but i guess we'll see. i doubt we'll see books from it on the iphone, but i guess it could happen
You can already get a ton of ebooks on the iPhone from places like this http://www.lexcycle.com/ , but I am not sure why you'd want to.
The iPhone's screen is just not a good option for reading for extended periods of time. Not just too small, but also it will wreck your eyes in a hurry.
The e-ink screens are a totally different solution, one which is much closer to (and IMO, in many ways better than,) a paper page.
It's amazing how short peoples memories are. When the very 1st iPod came out, it was widely criticized for being an over priced boutique product.
The iPod was extremely expensive (costing $399 for the 5GB model) and had no wireless/download capabilities without being connected to a PC. There was really no "problem" that it was solving as the overwhelming majority of people at that time were perfectly happy carrying a small number of CDs with them to listen to on very inexpensive (almost disposable) portable CD players.
Apple stuck with it though and even did marketing blurbs on the wonder of the iPod with the likes of Seal telling people how it revolutionized how he listens to music.
See any similarities here?
Seriously folks, Amazon did a case study and determined that there IS a market for this type of product, and probably a bigger one than many people give credit for. Sure the price is too high, but surprisingly enough $359 (with free shipping and no sales tax) is really not that high of a price to many people. I know more than a couple of people who blow $100 or more a month on books so the thought of getting an e-reader with cellular wireless that they can use to stock up on books when they go on business trips, vacation, or even read at home, it's really not that big of an expense for them.
Over time the display quality will continue to improve and price will come down. The e-ink technology looks more like a printed page than any other technology including OLED. When we have relatively inexpensive color e-ink displays in a few years that make photos, magazines, newspapers AND books look fabulous people will wonder how we ever did without them..
........But, the technology has to start somewhere, and where it is starting is with the person who does a fair amount of reading and loves the idea of carrying and getting new content very painlessly.
Kinda like the iPod Gen 1!
The iPod was extremely expensive (costing $399 for the 5GB model) and had no wireless/download capabilities without being connected to a PC. There was really no "problem" that it was solving as the overwhelming majority of people at that time were perfectly happy carrying a small number of CDs with them to listen to on very inexpensive (almost disposable) portable CD players.
Apple stuck with it though and even did marketing blurbs on the wonder of the iPod with the likes of Seal telling people how it revolutionized how he listens to music.
See any similarities here?
Seriously folks, Amazon did a case study and determined that there IS a market for this type of product, and probably a bigger one than many people give credit for. Sure the price is too high, but surprisingly enough $359 (with free shipping and no sales tax) is really not that high of a price to many people. I know more than a couple of people who blow $100 or more a month on books so the thought of getting an e-reader with cellular wireless that they can use to stock up on books when they go on business trips, vacation, or even read at home, it's really not that big of an expense for them.
Over time the display quality will continue to improve and price will come down. The e-ink technology looks more like a printed page than any other technology including OLED. When we have relatively inexpensive color e-ink displays in a few years that make photos, magazines, newspapers AND books look fabulous people will wonder how we ever did without them..
........But, the technology has to start somewhere, and where it is starting is with the person who does a fair amount of reading and loves the idea of carrying and getting new content very painlessly.
Kinda like the iPod Gen 1!