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Another Day, Another Panther Build (7B59)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by Code101
One can hope so:) I hate classic! Classic is the downfall of Apple. OS-X is the only way to go!
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I have a solution. An application that reads and determines or asks the proper destination program and format, and CHANGES THE FORMAT to suit. Most "problem files" are Apple specific modified or files Apple has full specs for or access to full specs for.

As such Apple should make a "Classic Importer" application or task. Support Systems 4-9.

Rocketman
 
Just to clarify why they changed it to 10.2.8...

There were two 10.2.7 releases. One for G5s (build 6Sxx) and one for non-G5s (build 6Rxx). You can't install 10.2.7 6Sxx on non-G5s and you can't install 10.2.7 6Rxx on G5s. The non-G5 version was simply renamed 10.2.8, probably to avoid confusion that two different 10.2.7s would have caused. 10.2.8 still will not run on G5s. G5s can only run their version of 10.2.7 and Panther. 10.2.8 will only be for non-G5 Macs.
 
Originally posted by Art Vandelay
Just to clarify why they changed it to 10.2.8...

There were two 10.2.7 releases. One for G5s (build 6Sxx) and one for non-G5s (build 6Rxx). You can't install 10.2.7 6Sxx on non-G5s and you can't install 10.2.7 6Rxx on G5s. The non-G5 version was simply renamed 10.2.8, probably to avoid confusion that two different 10.2.7s would have caused. 10.2.8 still will not run on G5s. G5s can only run their version of 10.2.7 and Panther. 10.2.8 will only be for non-G5 Macs.
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Oh that is confusing. I sure hope the installer of each knows what it will and won't accept, and that people moving external hard drives to from between machines don't get surprised by a system that doesn't work with one or the other.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Sorry, no can do. I still run a few old applications, and for that I need Classic. It's not dead and buried anyway -- maybe you are thinking of OS9. Classic is very much is alive and kicking, and will need to remain so for some years to come.
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Really, this is not, and shouldn't be, Apple's problem. Developers should be modernizing their applications, and if they're not doing so, other developers should step in and grab the sales in that market.

Classic is to Mac OS X as old IBM mainframes running decades-old COBOL is to high-powered Sun machines running Oracle databases and other critical apps.

The technologies in Mac OS X are an order of magnitude better than the fundamental Classic technologies. There is no good reason not to Carbonize (and take advantage of other Mac OS X technologies in) an older application, or even to rewrite it in Cocoa: Sure it takes some time, but it's new revenue and really compelling new opportunities for users.

As for the few apps (like old games, or non-critical utilities) that won't ever be updated, I think that users should just deal with Classic the way it is. It works, for the most part very well, and it would be an awful waste of effort on Apple's part to re-engineer so much of that legacy code to make a small percentage of users using a small percentage of Mac applications happier.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead. The Classic feature of Mac OS X (TruBlueEnvironment, in other words) already works about as well as it ever will. Don't expect any future improvements to Classic specifically.

You may see future improvements that have nothing to do with Classic but that have neat side-effects related to Classic, but that's kinda neither here nor there.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.
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I think Apple should keep Classic the way it is now - it works very well for me, as I prefer using Illustrator 8 under Classic than Version 10 natively (too slow) or Version 8 under OS 9 (I just can't tolorate frequent freezes under OS 9 any longer - OS X really spoiled me). No quirks, I can Cut and Paste between two apps, etc. I don't know whether upcoming Version 11 will be good enough to abandon Classic entirely (if that's the case, great), but Classic is really a nice feature of OS X and should be included for now.
 
Originally posted by merges
Classic is to Mac OS X as old IBM mainframes running decades-old COBOL is to high-powered Sun machines running Oracle databases and other critical apps.
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You're on the right track with this analogy, I think, but you missed it slightly. If your G4 (or G5 or whatever) is an IBM mainframe, then Mac OS X is OS/390. Classic, on the other hand, is TPF running under VM. It's older than dirt, in relative terms, but it works, and some folks depend on it heavily. It's not going away, but don't expect any future development on it, either.
 
Originally posted by MrMacman

And what the hell is gonna happen to 10.2.7 --> are they gonna skip the release all together?

It seems pretty stable...
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It seems that apple will skip the 10.2.7 release, and keep that solely for the G5. But, the 10.2.8 Apple will release is the same 10.2.7 you have under a different name.

So I think. ;)
 
Re: Re: Re: how is "boot up" defined?

Originally posted by sososowhat

seconds
0 Power on
5 Beep
20 Fan kicks on loud briefly
24 Apple image
34 Twirly hourglass thing spins
57 Progress bar comes on
36 Screen goes blue
66 Desktop background appears
70 System quiet, ready to roll
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turned on automatic login and let it fly (7B49, Dual1GHz, 1GB ram)

0 Power on
1 Beep
6 Fan kicks in
10 Gray Apple Logo and circle spinning thingy
30 Apple Boot Panel
31 Progress Bar (Boot Panel)
32 Screen Blue
34 Desktop Picture
39 All desktop icons displayed - ready (with 2 external firewire drives mounted).

i also have Fontbook autoloading at startup.

the time to look at is the boot up panel... in Jaguar this was spent with items like "Initializing Network," "Starting Netinfo," etc...

now it happens so fast i wonder why its even part of the login process.
 
Need panther

Does anyone have a select pass to the apple developer site and can gove me one of their extra apple seed keys?
 
Originally posted by FredAkbar
To the person that asked about whether installing Panther erases your hard drive:

When you install a new version of OS X, you have 3 choices:

Clean Install: deletes your old OS-related folders like System, Users, Library (I think), etc. and installs new, fresh versions of them. You would lose your users and home folders, but nothing else that might be on your hard drive.

Archive & Install: takes your old System folder and puts it in a folder on your hard drive called "Previous Systems" (which you can delete later, though it's not easy for an inexperienced user). This choice will preserve your old users and home folders automatically, and you can just continue to use them without any problems (unless I'm mistaken).

Erase & Install: erases your hard drive or hard drive partition that you've selected, and installs a fresh copy of Panther (in this case) on it.

Hope that clears it up for everyone :)
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how would i go about reseting to zeros a la classic? nothing better than a nuked HD. its like starting your life over.
 
Panther question

This is not too far off-topic. I have a question about Panther that I've asked around about and haven't yet gotten an answer. Anyone with the current build of Panther, if you would do this little test and tell me what happens, I would really appreciate it. This is an interface bug that I found in the Finder in column view that I submitted to Apple. They issued an urgent technote about it a week later and yet, despite several revisions to Jaguar since, the bug still persists.

Here it is.

In column view, hit Apple+shift+N to create a new folder. Name the folder "parent." Now, select "parent" (still in column view) and hit Apple+shift+N to create a subfolder in "parent." Name this new folder "child." Before finishing the naming of "child", hit Apple+delete as if you mean to move "child" to the trash. One would expect that child would be the "current" folder since you just created it and are currently naming it. But, if you watch, the Finder still has "parent" highlighted for whatever reason and summarily trashes the parent folder. I wiped out some very important files at work due to this bug several times (fortunately, there were backups) as it still happens to the parent folder even if you didn't just create it. That means, a folder full of very important stuff could be accidentally trashed without the user knowing. I would like to hear that Panther finally fixes this.

Thanks.
 
quote:
Originally posted by MrMacman

And what the hell is gonna happen to 10.2.7 --> are they gonna skip the release all together?

It seems pretty stable...



i used a 10.2.7 g5 at my local apple store a couple weeks ago. i was using soundtrack when the mouse would move by itself, and attempt to quit. after a few seconds, i could take control back. it did this several times until the possesed mouse took over, shut down soundtrack, then the computer turned right of. I tried restarting but it would freeze as soon as the desktop appeared. from my experience, 10.2.7 for the g5 is not stable at all.
 
Originally posted by Wonder Boy
i used a 10.2.7 g5 at my local apple store a couple weeks ago. i was using soundtrack when the mouse would move by itself, and attempt to quit. after a few seconds, i could take control back. it did this several times until the possesed mouse took over, shut down soundtrack, then the computer turned right of. I tried restarting but it would freeze as soon as the desktop appeared. from my experience, 10.2.7 for the g5 is not stable at all.
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Uhmm... was there Apple Remote Desktop or Timbuktu running on that machine? I know of know bug that would make the mouse move by itself.

Also, I've heard that there is a bug with Soundtrack and the G5s. Have you played with other apps?
 
Originally posted by hayesk
Uhmm... was there Apple Remote Desktop or Timbuktu running on that machine? I know of know bug that would make the mouse move by itself.

Also, I've heard that there is a bug with Soundtrack and the G5s. Have you played with other apps?
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No, nothing was running. i wanted to see how well it ran as the only opened app.

No, i didn't try another apps, soundtrack is the only one i am really interested in.
 
Originally posted by FredAkbar
To the person that asked about whether installing Panther erases your hard drive:

When you install a new version of OS X, you have 3 choices:

Clean Install: deletes your old OS-related folders like System, Users, Library (I think), etc. and installs new, fresh versions of them. You would lose your users and home folders, but nothing else that might be on your hard drive.

Archive & Install: takes your old System folder and puts it in a folder on your hard drive called "Previous Systems" (which you can delete later, though it's not easy for an inexperienced user). This choice will preserve your old users and home folders automatically, and you can just continue to use them without any problems (unless I'm mistaken).

Erase & Install: erases your hard drive or hard drive partition that you've selected, and installs a fresh copy of Panther (in this case) on it.

Hope that clears it up for everyone :)
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I always forget what to do when a new OS comes out...

so with clean install does a software like Office stay on the hard drive or gets deleted?
 
Originally posted by arn
From my understanding it's AAC is a VBR format. I guess you're asking for more specific target bitrate options?

You want to target 203 instead of 192?

arn
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Well sort of... I am looking for AAC to act like VBR mp3 does. Where the bit rate you enter is the mininum bit rate that is encoded and if a song needs it can go higher for tougher to encode parts and lower for easier parts.. right now AAC, though not technically CBR or ABR (because it has a variable bit reservoir), behaves like it is. If i was to encode silence, under VBR mp3 I would get a "lower" bit rate where as in AAC I still get the same bit rate no matter the material I give it.. I heard that Apple was working on implementing true VBR AAC, but I was just hoping one of you could confirm if It was it Panther or not..
 
Originally posted by Freg3000
It seems that apple will skip the 10.2.7 release, and keep that solely for the G5. But, the 10.2.8 Apple will release is the same 10.2.7 you have under a different name.

So I think. ;)
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Cool!

Special Release!

:D

I'll keep it on my hard drive then.

'The OS That only the G5 Was suppose to have!'

:eek: :D
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by NicoMan
Not that I want to be annoying or anything, but I would say that Classic must be ranking pretty low on the Panther priority list. And you know what? As the new OSX versions come out (I mean puma, jaguar, panther...), It's gonna get lower and lower... and lower on that priority list.
Just my guess...
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I guess I'm just going to have to disagree completely with just about everybody here. Classic is absolutely essential to the migration process. Probably better then half of the Mac owners I know are still stuck in OS9. If they're forced to dump their entire investment in Classic applications at once in order to complete an OSX buy-in, they might as well get a Windows box -- which is what a lot of them will do if faced with that choice. I already have a tough enough time convincing some long-time Mac owners that they won't have to immediately repurchase all of their software if they make the move to OSX. So let's not suggest making it true would constitute an improvement.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by merges
As for the few apps (like old games, or non-critical utilities) that won't ever be updated, I think that users should just deal with Classic the way it is. It works, for the most part very well, and it would be an awful waste of effort on Apple's part to re-engineer so much of that legacy code to make a small percentage of users using a small percentage of Mac applications happier.
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting a major re-engineering effort. In working with people who are relatively new to the Mac, I find they react to the different OSX and Classic presentations as being jarring and confusing. Much of this is cosmetic and can be fixed, probably without a tremendous amount of effort. The number of people still using Classic applications is not small, and I'd suggest that these boards are not a good representative sample of what Mac owners are doing. If you want the OS9 holdouts to migrate, then Classic is essential, and better Classic looks and feels, the more likely they are to move.
 
Originally posted by naz
I always forget what to do when a new OS comes out...

so with clean install does a software like Office stay on the hard drive or gets deleted?
Click to expand...
No, the only way something like Office would be deleted was if you did an "Erase and Install."

But, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, clean install is apparently not an option in Panther...or something like that. I would think they would keep it in there, though.

[edit: now that I think of it, it is possible for a program to stop functioning properly once you upgrade, like if it's something that installs files in your System or Library folders. But most programs don't do that, and I wouldn't think Office does, other than maybe some pref/data files that would just be created again when you ran Office after you installed Panther. Can anyone clear this up more? I'm not positive about this whole thing.]

But pretty much the bottom line is, don't worry about losing your programs. Just do an "Archive and Install" and everything will be fine. There's no real reason to reformat your partition/drive when you install Panther, is there?
 
Question about Multiple Users

Since people chime in questions about Panther in these build related threads, I have one relating to WindowsXP.

I run a WindowsXP machine in multiuser mode besides my Mac and I have an issue with it's handling of multiple users.

The prefs are set so to switch from one running account to another the user has to enter their password. The problem comes up when a user decides to shut the computer down and other users are logged on. Windows throws up a plain-vanilla alert box saying that if you turn the machine off other users may lose unsaved work.

Now the problem, since I can't log into the other accounts (not having their passwords) I can't switch over and save their documents. So I either have to 1) leave the machine on until they all return and save their work, or 2) Turn the machine off and risk people losing unsaved documents. There's no way to tell Windows to save the documents (either the changes or as new files) and Windows itself doesn't tell me if there are document changes to lose. The same alert comes up whether the other users are simply logged in or if they have heaps of Word files open and typed in, unsaved.

My question is, how does Panther handle multiple users working on one machine? Does it even have the option to require the password again when changing to another account? If so does it have a better way of dealing with possibly unsaved work?
 
Originally posted by FredAkbar
No, the only way something like Office would be deleted was if you did an "Erase and Install."

But, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, clean install is apparently not an option in Panther...or something like that. I would think they would keep it in there, though.
Click to expand...
Maybe the erase and install will be only available once Panther is finalized. But also when you install OSX off a CD, when the first screen comes on, you can go to the menu bar and launch the disk utility, where you can do all the reformating you want...
 
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