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Another Day, Another Panther Build (7B59)

Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by kwajo.com
i just started classic and launched 'SimpleText' (Ahhh, memories. . . ) to see if this was true. Result: no. they look the same as they always did. i can't tell you anything about performance because i never used it that much anyway. but classic launches really fast on my 17-inch powerbook, even without turning off extensions; a couple seconds, and it is done. sweet.
Click to expand...

Well that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping for tighter integration between OSX and Classic. The way it's done now is a big wart on an otherwise unblemished frog. I had heard someone mention that in Panther, Classic apps were Quartz aware, so you don't get that nasty eraser effect. Can you report on that?
 
Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I've been waiting for some word about how Classic will be supported in Panther. I'd expect some changes from Jaguar, or at least I'm hoping for some. What do we hear?
Click to expand...
Now there's a double video buffer, which means that you wont get those artifacts onscreen that have to be redrawn my moving something in place. (Hope you get my meaning)

Originally posted by Flynnstone
Perhaps there is two versions of 10.2.7, on for the G5 and one for G4, G3. To release this would be confusing. Perhaps 10.2.8 merges the two together.
Click to expand...
Oh no, 2x10.2.7 = Would be stupidest thing ever.
There is _one_ 10.2.7 and one 10.2.8.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Well that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping for tighter integration between OSX and Classic. The way it's done now is a big wart on an otherwise unblemished frog. I had heard someone mention that in Panther, Classic apps were Quartz aware, so you don't get that nasty eraser effect. Can you report on that?
Click to expand...
Look at my last post. This has nothing to do with Quartz-awareness.
 
Re: how is "boot up" defined?

Originally posted by AidenShaw
How is this measured?

Just to warn people that simple "subjective" impressions are important, but can be misleading.

For example, Windows XP "boots up" much faster than Windows 2000, when "boot up" is defined as "how long before the login window appears".

When you login, however, you find that "booting up" hasn't really completed, the disk is still clicking and things are finishing up in the background. The system can be a little slow until it all completes, and the system is really "booted".

All in all, the improvement is WinXP is significant -- but some of it is sleight of hand.... It's faster than Win2K - but not by as much as it would seem just by timing the login windows.
Click to expand...

let me give you the measurement.... on my D1GHz machine (with B49 build) - the boot panel (with the progress bar) is on the screen for all of 2 seconds before you are presented with the login panel. with Jaguar this number is more like 15 seconds for the boot panel. you'll see when you try it.
 
Originally posted by DGFan
From a math perspective I am not familiar with numbers containing two decimal points.

:confused:
Click to expand...

Originally posted by Edot
Actually, from a math perspective the zero in the number 10.2.10 IS significant. It is right of the decimal and right of a number. Don't we all love significant digits!!
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Of course there are no numbers with two decimal places. :) And of course, that trailing zero is significant. My mistake. if it were 1,028,000. The last 3 zeros would be insignificant. After a decimal place that ) is a sig fig. Thank you for the correction. :D
 
Classic? Not for me!

I'm hoping for the classic side of mac OS to just stop! Mac OS Classic is why I never used a Mac in the first place. Mac OS 8 & 9 is no better than Windows 98 and ME. Since the release of OS-X, I have loved the MAC. I wish they would just disable classic support in Panther all around. It's time to get out of the classic days for the Mac and time to get out of the DOS days for the PC! UNIX and NT is the way to go.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Well that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping for tighter integration between OSX and Classic. The way it's done now is a big wart on an otherwise unblemished frog. I had heard someone mention that in Panther, Classic apps were Quartz aware, so you don't get that nasty eraser effect. Can you report on that?
Click to expand...

The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead. The Classic feature of Mac OS X (TruBlueEnvironment, in other words) already works about as well as it ever will. Don't expect any future improvements to Classic specifically.

You may see future improvements that have nothing to do with Classic but that have neat side-effects related to Classic, but that's kinda neither here nor there.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.
 
Can any of you guys/girls running 10.3 tell me if Quicktime and or Itunes can produce variable bit rate AAC files? I know it is quassi VBR now (having specific bit rates)....but I was hoping that with Panther it went full VBR.. For example instead of 192 AAC you can get a 203 AAC (VBR) file.

Thanks!
 
Originally posted by Freg3000
If I am not mistaken, I think that Panther actually supports every computer than Jaguar did, less one.
Click to expand...
Less two: beige G3 and Wallstreet PowerBook.

HTH
WM
 
Re: Re: how is "boot up" defined?

Originally posted by bitfactory
let me give you the measurement.... on my D1GHz machine (with B49 build) - the boot panel (with the progress bar) is on the screen for all of 2 seconds before you are presented with the login panel. with Jaguar this number is more like 15 seconds for the boot panel. you'll see when you try it.
Click to expand...

What matters to me is time from power-on to desktop ready. The 2-second (or 15 second) progress bar is just a portion of that. On my 1GHz, single processor, 1.75G RAM, with only one account/no password here's what I time:

seconds
0 Power on
5 Beep
20 Fan kicks on loud briefly
24 Apple image
34 Twirly hourglass thing spins
57 Progress bar comes on
36 Screen goes blue
66 Desktop background appears
70 System quiet, ready to roll

Questions:
1) What's going on in the first 34 seconds? Is this not OS related?
2) What's happening between second 35 & 57?
3) How is this likely to change under Panther
4) How does this compare with other users of similar - or dis-similar Macs?

edits (spelling & one more question)
 
Originally posted by fantomas1976
Can any of you guys/girls running 10.3 tell me if Quicktime and or Itunes can produce variable bit rate AAC files? I know it is quassi VBR now (having specific bit rates)....but I was hoping that with Panther it went full VBR.. For example instead of 192 AAC you can get a 203 AAC (VBR) file.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

From my understanding it's AAC is a VBR format. I guess you're asking for more specific target bitrate options?

You want to target 203 instead of 192?

arn
 
To the person that asked about whether installing Panther erases your hard drive:

When you install a new version of OS X, you have 3 choices:

Clean Install: deletes your old OS-related folders like System, Users, Library (I think), etc. and installs new, fresh versions of them. You would lose your users and home folders, but nothing else that might be on your hard drive.

Archive & Install: takes your old System folder and puts it in a folder on your hard drive called "Previous Systems" (which you can delete later, though it's not easy for an inexperienced user). This choice will preserve your old users and home folders automatically, and you can just continue to use them without any problems (unless I'm mistaken).

Erase & Install: erases your hard drive or hard drive partition that you've selected, and installs a fresh copy of Panther (in this case) on it.

Hope that clears it up for everyone :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead. The Classic feature of Mac OS X (TruBlueEnvironment, in other words) already works about as well as it ever will. Don't expect any future improvements to Classic specifically.

You may see future improvements that have nothing to do with Classic but that have neat side-effects related to Classic, but that's kinda neither here nor there.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.
Click to expand...

Sorry, no can do. I still run a few old applications, and for that I need Classic. It's not dead and buried anyway -- maybe you are thinking of OS9. Classic is very much is alive and kicking, and will need to remain so for some years to come.

The behavior of the Classic Environment can definitely be improved, and it looks like it will be in Panther, though not as much as I'd hoped or expected.
 
Re: Re: Re: how is "boot up" defined?

Originally posted by sososowhat
Questions:
1) What's going on in the first 34 seconds? Is this not OS related?
2) What's happening between second 35 & 57?
3) How is this likely to change under Panther
4) How does this compare with other users of similar - or dis-similar Macs?
Click to expand...
1: The first step is memory tests, OpenFirmware initialization, and the finding/execution of the default system file (BootX in this case). This happens regardless of what system is installed.

2: BootX starts up the kernel, which discovers the hardware and load drivers, as well as mounts the boot drive r/w and starts standard UNIX daemons.
Hold down Apple-V at startup to see all the cool stuff that goes on during that time.

3: Not much will change, actually. Same boot process. Just streamlined even more.

4: 400MHz iMacs using my 10.2.6 image go from "bong" to NetInfo-bound login screen in 67 seconds.
The faster the machine, the faster your logins, but certain peripherals can slow it down too.
 
10.3 boots MUCH FASTER than Jaguar! I've timed it, on a 466Mhz iBook SE it boots 45 seconds faster for a couple of reasons, you can find this out by watching what it's doing through verbose mode (cmd+V on startup). First of all, it doesn't check the disk. It doesn't have to, added point of a Journaled file system. It gets through loading the kernel extensions about 4x faster than it used to, which is good.

It also works a lot faster in general. Hell, the scrolling no longer "lags" even.

I think Apple has finally gotten the optimization down. It took them a little while, but they finally got all the speed they could out of a machine, much like OS 9 did. OS 9 was so heavily optimized, it was nuts.

One last note: Where the hell are my advanced battery settings? Whatever happened to processor cycling? Reducing the amount of CPU time given to background apps? Grarrgh!
 
Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by kwajo.com
i just started classic and launched 'SimpleText' (Ahhh, memories. . . ) to see if this was true. Result: no. they look the same as they always did.
Click to expand...

Now when you're at it, could you try to swing a window in front of SimpleText. And moving the SimpleText window behind the Dock. Does the graphics still get messed up? (like in Jaguar, mine atleast...)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Well that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping for tighter integration between OSX and Classic. The way it's done now is a big wart on an otherwise unblemished frog. I had heard someone mention that in Panther, Classic apps were Quartz aware, so you don't get that nasty eraser effect. Can you report on that?
Click to expand...
Not that I want to be annoying or anything, but I would say that Classic must be ranking pretty low on the Panther priority list. And you know what? As the new OSX versions come out (I mean puma, jaguar, panther...), It's gonna get lower and lower... and lower on that priority list.
Just my guess...
 
Re: Classic? Not for me!

Originally posted by Code101
I'm hoping for the classic side of mac OS to just stop! Mac OS Classic is why I never used a Mac in the first place. Mac OS 8 & 9 is no better than Windows 98 and ME. Since the release of OS-X, I have loved the MAC. I wish they would just disable classic support in Panther all around. It's time to get out of the classic days for the Mac and time to get out of the DOS days for the PC! UNIX and NT is the way to go.
Click to expand...

I'm with you. I'd always hated the prior versions of the Mac OS, and even at work anytime i have to run classic my inner voice groans and stammers (to the point where i'll use fireworks more than photoshop because the PS they have will only run in classic)

My aim when i get my new G5 is to be able to run absolutely everything without having to downgrade to classic, and just forget classic as a remnent of the past.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by NicoMan
And you know what? As the new OSX versions come out (I mean puma, jaguar, panther...), It's gonna get lower and lower... and lower on that priority list.
Just my guess...
Click to expand...


One can hope so:) I hate classic! Classic is the downfall of Apple. OS-X is the only way to go!
 
Re: Re: Classic? Not for me!

Originally posted by iLife
I'm with you. I'd always hated the prior versions of the Mac OS, and even at work anytime i have to run classic my inner voice groans and stammers (to the point where i'll use fireworks more than photoshop because the PS they have will only run in classic)

My aim when i get my new G5 is to be able to run absolutely everything without having to downgrade to classic, and just forget classic as a remnent of the past.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree with you more:)

Bring on 10.3!!!
 
Re: Re: Re: how is "boot up" defined?

Originally posted by sososowhat
On my 1GHz, single processor, 1.75G RAM
Click to expand...
To add to what TylerL said, the more RAM you have, the longer it takes to check.

I believe the only single-processor 1 GHz Power Mac is a FW800, ergo non-OS 9-bootable. But if I'm forgetting something here and your Mac can boot 9, you can hold down Command and Option (?) while you open the Memory control panel and turn off Startup Memory Tests.
seconds
0 Power on
5 Beep
20 Fan kicks on loud briefly
24 Apple image
34 Twirly hourglass thing spins
57 Progress bar comes on
36 Screen goes blue
Click to expand...
Eh? Typo here?

FWIW
WM
 
I wonder if "rumours" such as tis Panther relelase are what Apple seeds to rumor sites to gain acceptance for future OS releases?

One would think Apple owed it to them to give them a bigger bone once in a while such as an exclusive, premiere, world renown release of some actual commercial product.

Get traffic up at rumor sites where bleeding edge types hang out and refer info to buyers daily.

Rocketman
 
Originally posted by FredAkbar
When you install a new version of OS X, you have 3 choices:

Clean Install: deletes your old OS-related folders like System, Users, Library (I think), etc. and installs new, fresh versions of them. You would lose your users and home folders, but nothing else that might be on your hard drive.

Archive & Install: takes your old System folder and puts it in a folder on your hard drive called "Previous Systems" (which you can delete later, though it's not easy for an inexperienced user). This choice will preserve your old users and home folders automatically, and you can just continue to use them without any problems (unless I'm mistaken).

Erase & Install: erases your hard drive or hard drive partition that you've selected, and installs a fresh copy of Panther (in this case) on it.
Click to expand...
I don't think your Clean Install is one of the options. Rather, I believe the third option is to simply upgrade--nothing aside from the system files will be affected. (My understanding is that this isn't the case with the Panther seeds, but it is how the previous OS X upgrades [Puma, Jaguar] have gone IIRC.)

HTH
WM
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about Classic?

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead. The Classic feature of Mac OS X (TruBlueEnvironment, in other words) already works about as well as it ever will. Don't expect any future improvements to Classic specifically.

You may see future improvements that have nothing to do with Classic but that have neat side-effects related to Classic, but that's kinda neither here nor there.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.
Click to expand...

Okay. fair enough for Apple Computer Inc.

But what about a third party like Dr Bott or Outpost.com or whoever.com?

THEY could make a series of products that bring legacy ports, peripherals, software to OSX from a variety of sources such as Apple II, NeXT, MacOS 4.2, Mac )S 6, Mac OS 7.2, Mac OS 8.6, Mac OS 9.2, Mac OS X10.3.

The G5 has several PCI-X slots, Firewaire and USB ports and whatever else might be needed including audio and video and display in and out.

Rocketman
 
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