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I was listening this weekend to the latest "Google Today" podcast on TWIT and they had two owners of fairly busy websites (I forget which they were but I knew of both of them). Both guests said their respective companies made business decisions to convert to HTML5 because they just couldn't justify not including the iOS devices as there were simply too many in the market to ignore...I think this is the way it is going...Site owners simply HAVE TO include the 100+ million iOS users if they want to compete...
 
I was listening this weekend to the latest "Google Today" podcast on TWIT and they had two owners of fairly busy websites (I forget which they were but I knew of both of them). Both guests said their respective companies made business decisions to convert to HTML5 because they just couldn't justify not including the iOS devices as there were simply too many in the market to ignore...I think this is the way it is going...Site owners simply HAVE TO include the 100+ million iOS users if they want to compete...

Right, web developers, if they have a choice, will be going to HTML 5. I think that only makes sense. What some people here have a problem with is that Apple is not giving us the choice to use flash or not. Is Flash dying? Is it growing? Who cares? The fact of the matter is that there are many, many websites out there that use flash that we cannot view on our ipad. Sure, flash on mobile devices leaves a lot to be desired, but what is the harm in giving us the option to have it on or off? Or allowing a third party browser to have flash?
 
Right, web developers, if they have a choice, will be going to HTML 5. I think that only makes sense. What some people here have a problem with is that Apple is not giving us the choice to use flash or not. Is Flash dying? Is it growing? Who cares? The fact of the matter is that there are many, many websites out there that use flash that we cannot view on our ipad. Sure, flash on mobile devices leaves a lot to be desired, but what is the harm in giving us the option to have it on or off? Or allowing a third party browser to have flash?

I get your point and i don't necessarily disagree although personally I haven't missed Flash at all on my iOS devices but I know there are some who do and I don't begrudge them their right to gripe. If it's a deal breaker, those that have a need or strong want for Flash will migrate to such devices that enable it...
 
I get your point and i don't necessarily disagree although personally I haven't missed Flash at all on my iOS devices but I know there are some who do and I don't begrudge them their right to gripe. If it's a deal breaker, those that have a need or strong want for Flash will migrate to such devices that enable it...

I generally don't miss it, but it can be annoying. Yesterday I was trying to make a reservation for dinner, and, as you know, 93% of all restaurants seem to have Flash-based websites. Talk about annoying. Then I tried to look for new apartments... and yes, some developers and buildings use flash sites. Generally I don't miss it, like I said, but I would have loved to have been able to just turn it on for that hour or two.
 
I generally don't miss it, but it can be annoying. Yesterday I was trying to make a reservation for dinner, and, as you know, 93% of all restaurants seem to have Flash-based websites. Talk about annoying. Then I tried to look for new apartments... and yes, some developers and buildings use flash sites. Generally I don't miss it, like I said, but I would have loved to have been able to just turn it on for that hour or two.

Did it devastate your evening when you had to put down your iPad and walk all the way over to your computer to make your reservation?
 
I generally don't miss it, but it can be annoying. Yesterday I was trying to make a reservation for dinner, and, as you know, 93% of all restaurants seem to have Flash-based websites. Talk about annoying. Then I tried to look for new apartments... and yes, some developers and buildings use flash sites. Generally I don't miss it, like I said, but I would have loved to have been able to just turn it on for that hour or two.

Fair enough...
 
Did it devastate your evening when you had to put down your iPad and walk all the way over to your computer to make your reservation?

Of course not, much like it wouldn't devestate my evening if the ipad didn't include email, or couldn't connect to the internet, or could only display things in black & white. The ipad is a convenience device, as all tablets are. When we must rely on other products to perform a fairly basic task, then it becomes inconvenient for some. You honestly don't understand this?
 
Of course not, much like it wouldn't devestate my evening if the ipad didn't include email, or couldn't connect to the internet, or could only display things in black & white. The ipad is a convenience device, as all tablets are. When we must rely on other products to perform a fairly basic task, then it becomes inconvenient for some. You honestly don't understand this?

You bought an iPad knowing full and well Flash will never be on it. And yet you continue to bitch and moan about it. You honestly don't understand this?
 
You bought an iPad knowing full and well Flash will never be on it. And yet you continue to bitch and moan about it. You honestly don't understand this?

You are trying too hard. We get it - you love Apple/the ipad. Guess what? We do too. That doesn't mean we can't hope for improvements or new features. Stop making a fool of yourself by being ultra-aggressive and making asinine posts.
 
You are trying too hard. We get it - you love Apple/the ipad. Guess what? We do too. That doesn't mean we can't hope for improvements or new features. Stop making a fool of yourself by being ultra-aggressive and making asinine posts.

I love that instead of acknowledging the fact that you consistently post about the lack of Flash (something you knew about the iPad before you bought it) you insult me instead. It takes a true fool to buy a product that doesn't have the features they want, and then complain about it afterwards.

In response to the above: Apple adding Flash to the iPad would neither be a feature nor an improvement. It would be a fault and a declination of the product. Apple will never add Flash to the iPad. If you think they will, you are absolutely out of your mind.
 
much gnashing of teeth in this thread. coffins with undead, neo-luddite flash hippies, and lots of fools.

join steve in the future, because no one wants to live in the past! when computers were invented, did we keep using pencils? when the ipad was invented did we keep reading paper books? when the mp3 came out did we keep listening to cds? of course not. these aren't media choices (the toggle switch would just confuse you and ruin the ipad aesthetic), but flawed straightjackets holding us in.

smart consumers moved on to a brave new world and left the old one behind. at least, those of us who matter did. anyone who still has flash on their sites must be part of a past i don't want to remember. to infinity, and beyond!
 
I love that instead of acknowledging the fact that you consistently post about the lack of Flash (something you knew about the iPad before you bought it) you insult me instead. It takes a true fool to buy a product that doesn't have the features they want, and then complain about it afterwards.

In response to the above: Apple adding Flash to the iPad would neither be a feature nor an improvement. It would be a fault and a declination of the product. Apple will never add Flash to the iPad. If you think they will, you are absolutely out of your mind.

Probably because I haven't consistently posted about the lack of flash? Just a few posts up I clearly state that it's not a big issue for me, but can be annoying at times.

To infinity, and beyond!!
 
much gnashing of teeth in this thread. coffins with undead, neo-luddite flash hippies, and lots of fools.

join steve in the future, because no one wants to live in the past! when computers were invented, did we keep using pencils? when the ipad was invented did we keep reading paper books? when the mp3 came out did we keep listening to cds? of course not. these aren't media choices (the toggle switch would just confuse you and ruin the ipad aesthetic), but flawed straightjackets holding us in.

smart consumers moved on to a brave new world and left the old one behind. at least, those of us who matter did. anyone who still has flash on their sites must be part of a past i don't want to remember. to infinity, and beyond!

Again, sarcasm. Do you guys have an actual point to make?

Buying an iPad knowing it doesn't have Flash, and then complaining about it afterwards is like buying a motorcycle and then complaining that you can't use it to move heavy furniture.

You are arguing for Apple to add a feature which they have explicitly stated will not come. Steve Jobs even wrote a public letter giving his opinion on Flash and why Apple wants no part of it.

Spending time on the internet arguing in favor of Flash on a iDevice is an exercise in futility. The same goes for your attempt at humor. I got douche chills reading your post.
 
Again, sarcasm. Do you guys have an actual point to make?

Buying an iPad knowing it doesn't have Flash, and then complaining about it afterwards is like buying a motorcycle and then complaining that you can't use it to move heavy furniture.

You are arguing for Apple to add a feature which they have explicitly stated will not come. Steve Jobs even wrote a public letter giving his opinion on Flash and why Apple wants no part of it.

Spending time on the internet arguing in favor of Flash on a iDevice is an exercise in futility. The same goes for your attempt at humor. I got douche chills reading your post.

Do you understand what "complaining" really means? Because simply pointing out that there are flash websites still in use doesn't really rise to the level of complaining. You keep saying that everyone else is here complaining about the lack of flash, but... who is? No one here is saying "ipad sucks because it doesn't have flash; I wish i had purchased a Galaxy Tab", as much as you seem to WANT us to say that. I appreciate the fact that you have chosen flash as your cause to crusade for - hey, we all need a cause - but you seem to be fabricating battles in your own mind.
 
Hi,

Here is Steve Jobs' "Thoughts on Flash"

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

Steve Jobs said:
Apple has a long relationship with Adobe. In fact, we met Adobe’s founders when they were in their proverbial garage. Apple was their first big customer, adopting their Postscript language for our new Laserwriter printer. Apple invested in Adobe and owned around 20% of the company for many years. The two companies worked closely together to pioneer desktop publishing and there were many good times. Since that golden era, the companies have grown apart. Apple went through its near death experience, and Adobe was drawn to the corporate market with their Acrobat products. Today the two companies still work together to serve their joint creative customers – Mac users buy around half of Adobe’s Creative Suite products – but beyond that there are few joint interests.

I wanted to jot down some of our thoughts on Adobe’s Flash products so that customers and critics may better understand why we do not allow Flash on iPhones, iPods and iPads. Adobe has characterized our decision as being primarily business driven – they say we want to protect our App Store – but in reality it is based on technology issues. Adobe claims that we are a closed system, and that Flash is open, but in fact the opposite is true. Let me explain.

First, there’s “Open”.

Adobe’s Flash products are 100% proprietary. They are only available from Adobe, and Adobe has sole authority as to their future enhancement, pricing, etc. While Adobe’s Flash products are widely available, this does not mean they are open, since they are controlled entirely by Adobe and available only from Adobe. By almost any definition, Flash is a closed system.

Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards. Apple’s mobile devices all ship with high performance, low power implementations of these open standards. HTML5, the new web standard that has been adopted by Apple, Google and many others, lets web developers create advanced graphics, typography, animations and transitions without relying on third party browser plug-ins (like Flash). HTML5 is completely open and controlled by a standards committee, of which Apple is a member.

Apple even creates open standards for the web. For example, Apple began with a small open source project and created WebKit, a complete open-source HTML5 rendering engine that is the heart of the Safari web browser used in all our products. WebKit has been widely adopted. Google uses it for Android’s browser, Palm uses it, Nokia uses it, and RIM (Blackberry) has announced they will use it too. Almost every smartphone web browser other than Microsoft’s uses WebKit. By making its WebKit technology open, Apple has set the standard for mobile web browsers.

Second, there’s the “full web”.

Adobe has repeatedly said that Apple mobile devices cannot access “the full web” because 75% of video on the web is in Flash. What they don’t say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264, and viewable on iPhones, iPods and iPads. YouTube, with an estimated 40% of the web’s video, shines in an app bundled on all Apple mobile devices, with the iPad offering perhaps the best YouTube discovery and viewing experience ever. Add to this video from Vimeo, Netflix, Facebook, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, ESPN, NPR, Time, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated, People, National Geographic, and many, many others. iPhone, iPod and iPad users aren’t missing much video.

Another Adobe claim is that Apple devices cannot play Flash games. This is true. Fortunately, there are over 50,000 games and entertainment titles on the App Store, and many of them are free. There are more games and entertainment titles available for iPhone, iPod and iPad than for any other platform in the world.

Third, there’s reliability, security and performance.

Symantec recently highlighted Flash for having one of the worst security records in 2009. We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash. We have been working with Adobe to fix these problems, but they have persisted for several years now. We don’t want to reduce the reliability and security of our iPhones, iPods and iPads by adding Flash.

In addition, Flash has not performed well on mobile devices. We have routinely asked Adobe to show us Flash performing well on a mobile device, any mobile device, for a few years now. We have never seen it. Adobe publicly said that Flash would ship on a smartphone in early 2009, then the second half of 2009, then the first half of 2010, and now they say the second half of 2010. We think it will eventually ship, but we’re glad we didn’t hold our breath. Who knows how it will perform?

Fourth, there’s battery life.

To achieve long battery life when playing video, mobile devices must decode the video in hardware; decoding it in software uses too much power. Many of the chips used in modern mobile devices contain a decoder called H.264 – an industry standard that is used in every Blu-ray DVD player and has been adopted by Apple, Google (YouTube), Vimeo, Netflix and many other companies.

Although Flash has recently added support for H.264, the video on almost all Flash websites currently requires an older generation decoder that is not implemented in mobile chips and must be run in software. The difference is striking: on an iPhone, for example, H.264 videos play for up to 10 hours, while videos decoded in software play for less than 5 hours before the battery is fully drained.

When websites re-encode their videos using H.264, they can offer them without using Flash at all. They play perfectly in browsers like Apple’s Safari and Google’s Chrome without any plugins whatsoever, and look great on iPhones, iPods and iPads.

Fifth, there’s Touch.

Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers. For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover. Most Flash websites will need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices. If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript?

Even if iPhones, iPods and iPads ran Flash, it would not solve the problem that most Flash websites need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices.

Sixth, the most important reason.

Besides the fact that Flash is closed and proprietary, has major technical drawbacks, and doesn’t support touch based devices, there is an even more important reason we do not allow Flash on iPhones, iPods and iPads. We have discussed the downsides of using Flash to play video and interactive content from websites, but Adobe also wants developers to adopt Flash to create apps that run on our mobile devices.

We know from painful experience that letting a third party layer of software come between the platform and the developer ultimately results in sub-standard apps and hinders the enhancement and progress of the platform. If developers grow dependent on third party development libraries and tools, they can only take advantage of platform enhancements if and when the third party chooses to adopt the new features. We cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers.

This becomes even worse if the third party is supplying a cross platform development tool. The third party may not adopt enhancements from one platform unless they are available on all of their supported platforms. Hence developers only have access to the lowest common denominator set of features. Again, we cannot accept an outcome where developers are blocked from using our innovations and enhancements because they are not available on our competitor’s platforms.

Flash is a cross platform development tool. It is not Adobe’s goal to help developers write the best iPhone, iPod and iPad apps. It is their goal to help developers write cross platform apps. And Adobe has been painfully slow to adopt enhancements to Apple’s platforms. For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5. Adobe was the last major third party developer to fully adopt Mac OS X.

Our motivation is simple – we want to provide the most advanced and innovative platform to our developers, and we want them to stand directly on the shoulders of this platform and create the best apps the world has ever seen. We want to continually enhance the platform so developers can create even more amazing, powerful, fun and useful applications. Everyone wins – we sell more devices because we have the best apps, developers reach a wider and wider audience and customer base, and users are continually delighted by the best and broadest selection of apps on any platform.

Conclusions.

Flash was created during the PC era – for PCs and mice. Flash is a successful business for Adobe, and we can understand why they want to push it beyond PCs. But the mobile era is about low power devices, touch interfaces and open web standards – all areas where Flash falls short.

The avalanche of media outlets offering their content for Apple’s mobile devices demonstrates that Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content. And the 250,000 apps on Apple’s App Store proves that Flash isn’t necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games.

New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.

Steve Jobs
April, 2010

Anyone who believes that there's even a 1% chance that Apple will add a "toggle switch" for Flash is completely out of their minds. I hope we can bookmark this thread, because I'd like to check back in 6 months and 12 months to see how the web is evolving in terms of Flash vs. modern web technology.

For anyone who has to deal with a crappy, behind-the-times website that still deals with Flash, I highly suggest you email them and tell them that we are in the year 2011. Let them know that you're not interested in their 1990s web technology and that they need to get with the times.
 
Again, sarcasm. Do you guys have an actual point to make?

Buying an iPad knowing it doesn't have Flash, and then complaining about it afterwards is like buying a motorcycle and then complaining that you can't use it to move heavy furniture.

You are arguing for Apple to add a feature which they have explicitly stated will not come. Steve Jobs even wrote a public letter giving his opinion on Flash and why Apple wants no part of it.

Spending time on the internet arguing in favor of Flash on a iDevice is an exercise in futility. The same goes for your attempt at humor. I got douche chills reading your post.


sarcasm is the wit of fools. i agree with you wholeheartedly. buying an ipad and having a complaint about it or a desire for some feature is like buying an apple and expecting it not to come with a worm.

indeed, everyone is arguing for a feature that steve doesn't like. obviously that makes them wrong, just like when they whined about problems with mobileme. that was clearly just fine as it was and there was no need for some kind of crappy icloud service.

you and i both know that banging our fists against the keyboard railing against the ipad for not having flash is foolish. it's like starting a thread to celebrate the defeat of a competitor, perhaps the loss of some more jobs, and to ridicule devices that try to give customers a choice. that would be really silly.

a douche chill? i would think sarcastic comments are more like enemas, but to each his own.

to infiniti and beyond!
 
indeed, everyone is arguing for a feature that steve doesn't like. obviously that makes them wrong, just like when they whined about problems with mobileme. that was clearly just fine as it was and there was no need for some kind of crappy icloud service.

Even Steve Jobs admitted that a lot of MobileMe was a cluster****.

palpatine said:
a douche chill?

A douche chill is when someone says something so douchey it gives you chills. After reading some of the attempts at humor here, I must be coming down with the flu.
 
Even Steve Jobs admitted that a lot of MobileMe was a cluster****.

A douche chill is when someone says something so douchey it gives you chills. After reading some of the attempts at humor here, I must be coming down with the flu.

and my point is... that steve changes his mind on company policies.

customers, including myself, are thrilled with apple products. but, we believe they are not perfect and could be better, particularly in respect to policy decisions (as opposed to technical challenges). not including a toggle feature is a policy decision that (in my opinion) adversely affects my experience. obviously you disagree. i am not convinced, though, that supplying me with a choice adversely impacts your experience (a certain debate about sexual practices in the us comes to mind here).

wanting the ipad to do the dishes for you, and being disappointed when it doesn't is silly. but, that is not what we are saying. we want it to access content on the internet. that is not so much to humbly ask steve jobs to reconsider (in my opinion). yes, i have sent him emails.

anyhow, we have been talking past each other throughout the thread, so i guess there is nowhere to go now. i apologize for the sarcasm. perhaps it was a bit douchy. i'll get back to enjoying my ipad now.
 
and my point is... that steve changes his mind on company policies.

customers, including myself, are thrilled with apple products. but, we believe they are not perfect and could be better, particularly in respect to policy decisions (as opposed to technical challenges). not including a toggle feature is a policy decision that (in my opinion) adversely affects my experience. obviously you disagree.

But you know what? Adding a toggle for Flash would adversely affect my experience. How you say?

I don't want to use Flash. At all. I had enough of it crashing and making my laptop slow down to a crawl so at this point I don't even have it installed. And the fact that Flash isn't supported on iOS means that a lot of websites started providing Flash-free alternatives over the last few years, because they don't want to miss out on the market of millions of iOS devices.

So the fact that iOS doesn't support Flash at all means that over the last few years a lot more content started to be accessible to my devices.

If you want Flash there are plenty of alternatives.
 
much gnashing of teeth in this thread. coffins with undead, neo-luddite flash hippies, and lots of fools.

join steve in the future, because no one wants to live in the past! when computers were invented, did we keep using pencils? when the ipad was invented did we keep reading paper books? when the mp3 came out did we keep listening to cds? of course not. these aren't media choices (the toggle switch would just confuse you and ruin the ipad aesthetic), but flawed straightjackets holding us in.

smart consumers moved on to a brave new world and left the old one behind. at least, those of us who matter did. anyone who still has flash on their sites must be part of a past i don't want to remember. to infinity, and beyond!


Yes, people still use Pencils, Yes people still read paper books and yes people buy CD's

What planet are you living on?

Just because I buy a bicycle does not mean I never ever walk anywhere.
Just because I buy a VCR does not mean I never go to the cinema
Just because I but a frozen TV dinner does not mean I don't make a meal from individual fresh ingredients ever again.



The iPad is just an alternative to other formats.

And generally it's an inferior alternative.
That does not make it a bad product, it's just a low power and limited portable device that's trying it's best to offer the best it can.
 
Is this really still a discussion?

As consumers, we can vote with our wallet and as it stands, it appears a majority of Internet traffic (at least at night) is tied to "non Flash" enabled iOS devices...

As for Adobe and Apple, let them fight out this BUSINESS issue and let us (the consumers) know we're all in this together.

Without competition, there would be no innovation.

Without fanboi's, there would be no Internet Warz.
 
All mobile devices win when flash is not used, not just iOS. Even devices that can use flash suffer poor battery life and crashes when browsing flash websites. I personally get annoyed by flash ads and crazy animations; I just want to get what I need from the website and move on.
 
Sorry, but I'm completely unimpressed by your post. You have a MacBook, iPhone, iPad and PS3 (and other gear listed in your signature). And you plan on buying another tablet next year. And your complaint about the iPad is that you can't stream pirated movies and have to use your MacBook while sitting on your bed, all because you're too cheap to rent a movie from iTunes. If you can't afford to rent those movies, who bought all your other gear? Honestly I'm just disgusted.

kudos to the unnecessary aggression. Hopefully by now your bout of disgust has subsided and you've been able to see this is no life or death situation. We're talking about flash, a tech you've deemed "unnecessary" on an ipad, perhaps the most unnecessary device ever made, but which we all seem to own. talk about disgust.

Nobody is here bitching and moaning about regretting getting an ipad. What we're saying is that having the option of flash would be better. Maybe not for you. But you seem intent on not understanding others, thus the point of a thread decimating a technology simply because your god said it sucks. And when apple users show up with their own opinions and experiences, you retort like a 5 year old. pathetic.

What can we do? Keep the product as is and use it for its great benefits. What can I do? Squander, or not, my money in a way which satisfies me. As I said before, I will probably be buying another tablet next year, just because I can, and it will not be an ipad 3 if flash happens to be fully functional in an alternative tablet.

Just typed up on my ipad: megavideodotcom, my university's blackboard service, its webmail, its account management system, and it's webspace (a facebook-like service), my restaurant's ordering page and menus, 6 websites which i use weekly if not daily that I cannot access via the ipad. Your argument?

Yeah, didn't think so.
 
First off, as mentioned iSwifter does a pretty good job for when I have no alternative.

As for the nail in the coffin... that seems silly. IF Apple were to put any type of nail in anyone's coffin. It would be a "magical" nail, in a Vessel or Resting (with unicorns). Unicorns of course, will defeat Flash, not some rusty nail.
 
Nobody is here bitching and moaning about regretting getting an ipad. What we're saying is that having the option of flash would be better. Maybe not for you. But you seem intent on not understanding others, thus the point of a thread decimating a technology simply because your god said it sucks. And when apple users show up with their own opinions and experiences, you retort like a 5 year old. pathetic.

Hi, person who steals content from others without paying for it and yet buys a ridiculous amount of expensive technology but is still in college and probably his parents buy him everything, the point is that Apple will never make an option to enable Flash. It's an absolutely ridiculous idea.
 
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