'Antennagate' Reactions: RIM, Nokia, Taiwanese Animation

[-aggie-]

Insults, for when you have no actual rebutals to offer.

I'm here because I like my Apple products. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything that Apple PR puts out, nor does it mean I can't critique it. Sorry if you don't like it and consider "disagreing" as trolling.

What do you consider disagreeing as, if not trolling? I’ve had you mischaracterize my posts or just ignore my responses, like when I responded to this post from you (and a number of other posts):

Over a misquoted percent that is posted in a way to create misinformation. You're quite to post rebutals yet you cry when others do the same thing ? And you wonder why I lump you in with Dmann and Max(IT) ?

I can only take that as an insult to me, since it is obvious what your feelings are to those two. I don’t care about that as much, but when you seem to want to pick and choose what you respond to and ignore points being made, I can only assume you have some agenda.

 

[KnightWRX]

There is no rebuttals to offer to someone not listening ...
In 5 minutes I could easily report here an hundred of your post about apple, iPhone, iOs and so on. All with the same basic attitude: bashing.
This is NOT "disagreeing", this is fighting a personal war.
And you know it.

Sure you could, but you'd have to ignore all the posts which got me labeled an Apple fanboy about the Mac. I have always made it clear that I disagree on Apple about the AppStore policies and that I disagree with anyone stating the iPhone is "the best phone everyone wants", because the appstore wall garden is something no free software advocate likes (and I have been in the FOSS community for close to 11 years now) and "the best phone everyone wants" is really a disingenuous label for a 3rd place contestant.

You just see the bashing posts because that's what you want to see. Go ahead, make a list of all my posts, I stand behind 100% of them. I call it like I see it. I have as much reason to be here as you do (or believe you do) and agreeing 100% with Apple is not a requirement to post on this forum unfortunately for you.

It seems to me the only one with a personal war here is you, and it seems to be against me. Harassment much ?

It's not my fault if Macrumors hardly posts Mac news anymore and there's just nothing to discuss about the products I like.

What do you consider disagreeing as, if not trolling?

Trolling is not disagreeing, that's a common misconception many of the Apple lovers on this forum have. Trolling is posting to elicit a response, usually emotional and inflammatory. The fact that I think the Apple press conference was a spin job is not trolling, it's an opinion. Trolling would be saying things like "0.55% of people have the issue!" getting rebutted by someone saying "no, that's the number of people who called Applecare about it" and then continue saying "0.55% of people have the issue!" ad nauseum just to laugh at the people who try to post rebuttals at me over and over again.

I can only take that as an insult to me, since it is obvious what your feelings are to those two. I don’t care about that as much, but when you seem to want to pick and choose what you respond to and ignore points being made, I can only assume you have some agenda.

Or I ignore the points for which I have no rebuttals or which require no response.

As for the insult part, I'm glad to hear you find being lumped in with those 2 is an insult to you, makes my point that much more valid about their attitude on this forum. And yes, since you told me you aren't one of those foaming at the mouth Steve Jobs worshipper, I have kept an open mind reading your posts. Hence the many times I pointed out to you posts that contradicted your views that the Apple PR wasn't being misused like I claimed it was.

 

[cmaier]

I don't care about that HTC craphone. What I know is that iPhone 4 actually WORKS for almost all the owners out there, and all this BS is just an attempt to bash Apple for its successful release,

no. It's an attempt to bash apple's failure to accept responsibility for a broken phone and an attempt to make enough noise to get apple to fix it.

 

[Max(IT)]

no. It's an attempt to bash apple's failure to accept responsibility for a broken phone and an attempt to make enough noise to get apple to fix it.

Except there is no failure at all, and Apple already took responsibility for something actually working, giving free bumpers just to please customers (and try to calm down all this mess).
BTW your attitude in that question is quite different from KnightWRX or Aiden, so I have no problem in understanding your feelings.

Sure you could, but you'd have to ignore all the posts which got me labeled an Apple fanboy about the Mac. I have always made it clear that I disagree on Apple about the AppStore policies and that I disagree with anyone stating the iPhone is "the best phone everyone wants", because the appstore wall garden is something no free software advocate likes (and I have been in the FOSS community for close to 11 years now) and "the best phone everyone wants" is really a disingenuous label for a 3rd place contestant.

You just see the bashing posts because that's what you want to see. Go ahead, make a list of all my posts, I stand behind 100% of them. I call it like I see it. I have as much reason to be here as you do (or believe you do) and agreeing 100% with Apple is not a requirement to post on this forum unfortunately for you.

It seems to me the only one with a personal war here is you, and it seems to be against me. Harassment much ?

It's not my fault if Macrumors hardly posts Mac news anymore and there's just nothing to discuss about the products I like.

Again with the "I love my Mac" smokescreen ?
You don't like AppStore? You don't like iPhone? Well, it's your choice, it's absolutely right.
So why are you keep posting hundreds of messages on those arguments ???
This is my only point, it not a war against you.
You don't like iPhone. I'm fine with that, absolutely fine. I like it, and I don't like Evo 4G.
I'm not going to sign up on an HTC forum to keep saying Evo's battery is a joke.
I think I should really report here your posts, but I have better things to do and this OT is really annoying ...

 

[KnightWRX]

no. It's an attempt to bash apple's failure to accept responsibility for a broken phone and an attempt to make enough noise to get apple to fix it.

Actually, at this point, free bumpers and full refund the most fix we'll get, until June 2011. However, there's nothing wrong in pointing out the misuse of quoted Apple PR statistics because that is spreading misinformation and trying to bury the issue in lies.

I very much agree most of what you and I have been doing is not bashing the iPhone 4 release or product, it's mostly just ranting and venting about our anger towards Apple attitude and pointing out what a PR mess this has been.

Again with the "I love my Mac" smokescreen ?
I think I should really report here your posts, but I have better things to do and this OT is really annoying ...

This will be my last reply to you as you are headed to my ignore list :

Anything you copy paste from me, you will filter to make it prove your point. It is invalid. You can believe or not that I do like Macs and you can believe or not that it is not a smokescreen for my presence on this forum, I couldn't care less, just like I don't care you believe you have a degree in IT.

I know that my time is better spent on forums that are of interest to me rather than on forums for things I don't like and that's all that really matters. This little vendetta you have against me is your problem. Deal.

 

[-aggie-]

snippy
Trolling is not disagreeing, that's a common misconception many of the Apple lovers on this forum have. Trolling is posting to elicit a response, usually emotional and inflammatory. The fact that I think the Apple press conference was a spin job is not trolling, it's an opinion. Trolling would be saying things like "0.55% of people have the issue!" getting rebutted by someone saying "no, that's the number of people who called Applecare about it" and then continue saying "0.55% of people have the issue!" ad nauseum just to laugh at the people who try to post rebuttals at me over and over again.



Or I ignore the points for which I have no rebuttals or which require no response.

As for the insult part, I'm glad to hear you find being lumped in with those 2 is an insult to you, makes my point that much more valid about their attitude on this forum. And yes, since you told me you aren't one of those foaming at the mouth Steve Jobs worshipper, I have kept an open mind reading your posts. Hence the many times I pointed out to you posts that contradicted your views that the Apple PR wasn't being misused like I claimed it was.

snip

You missed the point of my post. I’m saying you seem to consider disagreeing to be trolling as much as you say Max(IT) does. At least that’s why you lumped me with them when you misunderstood a previous post when I wasn’t even addressing the 0.55% from Apple that a number of people seem to be hung up on, but for some reason you thought I was disagreeing with you and saying the 0.55% meant more than it does. Did you forget this?

The second paragraph above, you just twist my words. You seem to do that a lot, no? It’s fairly difficult to “discuss” anything, if you’re usually taking words, changing them around, and then responding in a way that has nothing to do with the original intent of a post.

As far as considering my posts don’t require any response: Am I to take that to mean you agree with the posts when you don’t respond?

 

[Max(IT)]

You missed the point of my post. I’m saying you seem to consider disagreeing to be trolling as much as you say Max(IT) does. At least that’s why you lumped me with them when you misunderstood a previous post when I wasn’t even addressing the 0.55% from Apple that a number of people seem to be hung up on, but for some reason you thought I was disagreeing with you and saying the 0.55% meant more than it does. Did you forget this?

The second paragraph above, you just twist my words. You seem to do that a lot, no? It’s fairly difficult to “discuss” anything, if you’re usually taking words, changing them around, and then responding in a way that has nothing to do with the original intent of a post.

As far as considering my posts don’t require any response: Am I to take that to mean you agree with the posts when you don’t respond?

You deserve a "well done".
You are a very polite person, with great patience

I envy you

 

[-aggie-]

You deserve a "well done".
You are a very polite person, with great patience

I envy you

Thanks, but it’s the only way to be here. We’re “supposed” to set examples for the newbies. I try.

I’m also willing to listen to both sides of an argument. I obviously lean towards Apple in all this, but I see the issues those have with all this reception crap. One of the more unfair things Apple has done is put iPhone 4 owners in a bind, since if they decide to return the iPhone 4 and buy a 3GS, then they’re out an upgrade next year. I’ve lobbied Apple to do something about this, but I’ve heard nothing after two emails.

 

[*LTD*]

Where are the long lines of users returning the iPhone 4? Where are the demands for a recall by angry consumers?

There aren't any. Which explains Apple's position on the matter perfectly.

Unlike Windows, for instance, the iPhone 4 sells because it's actually a great product. And also because of that little detail about less than a percent of units being less than perfect. And keep in mind, Apple only sells *one* (at most, two) phones, with 25% of the U.S. smartphone market.

Consumers, by their actions, have again proven Apple correct.

Enjoy.

 

[Max(IT)]

Thanks, but it’s the only way to be here. We’re “supposed” to set examples for the newbies. I try.

I’m also willing to listen to both sides of an argument. I obviously lean towards Apple in all this, but I see the issues those have with all this reception crap. One of the more unfair things Apple has done is put iPhone 4 owners in a bind, since if they decide to return the iPhone 4 and buy a 3GS, then they’re out an upgrade next year. I’ve lobbied Apple to do something about this, but I’ve heard nothing after two emails.

You Are right, but that is valid in US only. Here, in Europe, you can buy an iPhone without a contract (for quite a big amount of money, right), so you are not tied with the operator for 24 months.
The worst thing about iPhone, and I mean ALL generations, is the exclusive partnership with At&t for you Americans. Most of the complains are related to that operator, in my opinion, including a lot of this issue about signal reception.

 

[cmaier]

Where are the long lines of users returning the iPhone 4? Where are the demands for a recall by angry consumers?

There aren't any. Which explains Apple's position on the matter perfectly.

Exactly. Apple is willing to trade away some of its brand trust and reputation for quality for immediate money in the bank. There is now a percentage of the population that has a little bit of doubt about whether Apple, when it makes a mistake (as all companies do) will stand behind its failures.

Will the next Apple product I buy have a Deathstar-like spot of death? Will the graphics chip self destruct? Will the screen be yellow? Will the power supply give out after 18 months? Will microcracks form? There's always been a good chance that there could be such a design or manufacturing flaw. But Apple had the reputation of dealing with these issues, fixing the problem, and making things right by the customers.

This time they blamed their competition (thus reminding everyone that Apple products are not in a class by themselves) and handed out rubber bands without ever admitting that i4 has a unique problem.

It will have a negligible short term effect, but let's see how much press adoration and good word of mouth they have going forward.

 

[Max(IT)]

Exactly. Apple is willing to trade away some of its brand trust and reputation for quality for immediate money in the bank. There is now a percentage of the population that has a little bit of doubt about whether Apple, when it makes a mistake (as all companies do) will stand behind its failures.

Will the next Apple product I buy have a Deathstar-like spot of death? Will the graphics chip self destruct? Will the screen be yellow? Will the power supply give out after 18 months? Will microcracks form? There's always been a good chance that there could be such a design or manufacturing flaw. But Apple had the reputation of dealing with these issues, fixing the problem, and making things right by the customers.

This time they blamed their competition (thus reminding everyone that Apple products are not in a class by themselves) and handed out rubber bands without ever admitting that i4 has a unique problem.

It will have a negligible short term effect, but let's see how much press adoration and good word of mouth they have going forward.

You quoted almost every recently discovered defect about apple's products. Do you think that list is impressive? It's not. At all. They are not perfect, as Jobs said a week ago. We know it, they know it.
Apple actually IS a company with a good reputation, and the commercial success of iPhone 4, with its large majority of satisfied customers, will just improve it.
Bad press easily disappear when a customer buy an iPhone and .... it just works. While you are here keep saying iPhone 4 has a problem, people out of this geek forum is still buying it. And they are not returning it.
In a couple of day, apple will open 17 new markets all around the World (mostly European main countries plus Canada): huge markets.

BTW there is not press adoration about Apple, and all this mess about NOTHING is here to demonstrate it.

 

[cmaier]

You quoted almost every recently discovered defect about apple's products. Do you think that list is impressive? It's not. At all. They are not perfect, as Jobs said a week ago. We know it, they know it.
Apple actually IS a company with a good reputation, and the commercial success of iPhone 4, with its large majority of satisfied customers, will just improve it.
Bad press easily disappear when a customer buy an iPhone and .... it just works. While you are here keep saying iPhone 4 has a problem, people out of this geek forum is still buying it. And they are not returning it.
In a couple of day, apple will open 17 new markets all around the World (mostly European main countries plus Canada): huge markets.

BTW there is not press adoration about Apple, and all this mess about NOTHING is here to demonstrate it.

I didn't say the list is impressive, but would you pay extra to buy a product that is likely to have such a problem if you didn't think the problem would be resolved to your satisfaction? I think not.

Re: "BTW there is not press adoration about Apple, and all this mess about NOTHING is here to demonstrate it"

It's clearly not nothing. I have three i4's to prove it. Second, this press reaction is the exception, not the rule. And it proves my point - up until now, for the last several years, Apple has had a free ride (actually not so free - they earned it by churning out superior products and great customer service).

You are thinking like a fanboy - remember that most of the world doesn't sit on this board all day. All they know is they've heard apple iphones suck as phones, and those who bothered to pay attention heard something about apple not planning to fix them and instead giving out free rubberbands. This sort of thing will make people think twice about Apple, particularly when the rabid press now begins to pay more attention to the next "yellow screen" or "melting nvidia gpu" or "slow computer when playing audio" problem.

 

[daze]

Well, I think the PR problem is Apple's but I think the technical problem is everyone's. Not one of them have said what Steve Jobs said is actually false. If Steve had lied they would have sued, no question. Nokia's response even confirms what he said. So, Nobody thinks he's lying. And if, from that, we can assume what he said is true, why are people still saying it's an iPhone 4 problem. Since this 'story' broke I have tried every phone that comes into my home (I have a poor reception where I live) and they all do this to some extent. I don't have an iPhone 4 but I'm planning on getting one in the very near future. This is a non issue for me. I think the people still moaning about this are just riding the backlash bandwagon. I'm not just being a fanboy. If RIM, Nokia had come out and said 'Steve lied and is wrong' I wouldn't have wrote the above and would be questioning the validity of Steve's words (even though my own tiny experiment seems to indicate that all phones do this). But I think Apple's competitors are basically saying 'We have been in the business a lot longer than Apple, have spent millions on antenna R&D and we still have this problem. Please Apple, keep this information to yourself as it is your product that has brought it to the fore'. Please let me know if I've missed anything as I'm confused by peoples response to this other than backlash fever.

Nicely put.

 

[Max(IT)]

I didn't say the list is impressive, but would you pay extra to buy a product that is likely to have such a problem if you didn't think the problem would be resolved to your satisfaction? I think not.

you are not paying any "extra". You are just paying apple's prices.
Can't you afford them ? Buy something else.
Don't you think is a reasonable price for what you get ? Buy something else.
Simple like that.

Re: "BTW there is not press adoration about Apple, and all this mess about NOTHING is here to demonstrate it"

It's clearly not nothing. I have three i4's to prove it. Second, this press reaction is the exception, not the rule. And it proves my point - up until now, for the last several years, Apple has had a free ride (actually not so free - they earned it by churning out superior products and great customer service).

You are thinking like a fanboy - remember that most of the world doesn't sit on this board all day. All they know is they've heard apple iphones suck as phones, and those who bothered to pay attention heard something about apple not planning to fix them and instead giving out free rubberbands. This sort of thing will make people think twice about Apple, particularly when the rabid press now begins to pay more attention to the next "yellow screen" or "melting nvidia gpu" or "slow computer when playing audio" problem.

no, you have only prove about how crap is AT&T network.

BTW, I'm not a fanboy, whatever you could think. I'm an apple customer since 1988, and a mostly happy customer. Nothing more.
I like apple products, but not all of them.
I think Time Capsule is flawed in its design, I think Apple TV is flawed in its concept, I think apple update policy is somewhat lazy, sometimes.
People don't think twice about apple products, and the NUMBERS says so. No one is growing like apple.
There aren't millions of fanboys , out there. There are millions of (mostly) happy customer.
Unfortunately not all of them

 

[-aggie-]

Well, I think the PR problem is Apple's but I think the technical problem is everyone's. Not one of them have said what Steve Jobs said is actually false. If Steve had lied they would have sued, no question. Nokia's response even confirms what he said. So, Nobody thinks he's lying. And if, from that, we can assume what he said is true, why are people still saying it's an iPhone 4 problem. Since this 'story' broke I have tried every phone that comes into my home (I have a poor reception where I live) and they all do this to some extent. I don't have an iPhone 4 but I'm planning on getting one in the very near future. This is a non issue for me. I think the people still moaning about this are just riding the backlash bandwagon. I'm not just being a fanboy. If RIM, Nokia had come out and said 'Steve lied and is wrong' I wouldn't have wrote the above and would be questioning the validity of Steve's words (even though my own tiny experiment seems to indicate that all phones do this). But I think Apple's competitors are basically saying 'We have been in the business a lot longer than Apple, have spent millions on antenna R&D and we still have this problem. Please Apple, keep this information to yourself as it is your product that has brought it to the fore'. Please let me know if I've missed anything as I'm confused by peoples response to this other than backlash fever.

I’m glad you’re post got attention by another poster, because I missed it earlier. Your post says it all.

 

[cmaier]

you are not paying any "extra". You are just paying apple's prices.
Can't you afford them ? Buy something else.
Don't you think is a reasonable price for what you get ? Buy something else.
Simple like that.

You are intentionally missing my point. Apple's prices are generally higher than the competition. It's a luxury brand. And my point is that if Apple doesn't treat its customers like luxury brands treat their customers, more people will NOT think the prices are reasonable and will buy something else.

My point is that Apple's response to this situation is broken, because they are devaluing their own brand. And in the long term, if they don't fix this, it will hurt them.

 

[Journojulz]

You are intentionally missing my point. Apple's prices are generally higher than the competition. It's a luxury brand. And my point is that if Apple doesn't treat its customers like luxury brands treat their customers, more people will NOT think the prices are reasonable

The overall experience seems to be convincing people that it is still worth it - despite the issue - which is after all easily avoidable.

My point is that Apple's response to this situation is broken, because they are devaluing their own brand. And in the long term, if they don't fix this, it will hurt them.

Apples response is right. Offer free cases or refunds.

If you are still whining (and lets be fair - you have been throughout this launch month) you will never be happy.

 

[cmaier]

The overall experience seems to be convincing people that it is still worth it - despite the issue - which is after all easily avoidable.

Says who? Who says sales haven't slumped since their press conference?

Apples response is right. Offer free cases or refunds.

The message that sends is "if you buy our product and don't like it, go buy something else." The message world class companies send is "if you buy our product and don't like it, we will do whatever it takes to make you happy."

The first message teaches people to compare your product to the competition, weight the trade-offs, and base your purchasing decision on the in-the-box product.

The second message teaches people to either not bother comparing, or if you do compare, compare the complete package - what's in the box and what's outside the box (support, ease of use, enjoyment, etc.).

Apple has only succeeded in the past with the second message.

If you are still whining (and lets be fair - you have been throughout this launch month) you will never be happy.

Why is it that when someone disagrees with you they are "whining?"

 

[Journojulz]

Sorry fella, but you do whine.

What would you have them do?

Stop all sales, recall all phones and relaunch in six months?

 

[cmaier]

Sorry fella, but you do whine.

The proof being that you say so.

What would you have them do?

Stop all sales, recall all phones and relaunch in six months?

No. Simply say "yes, we admit the i4 has a different problem than other phones, and it was caused by a tradeoff in the antenna design. We didn't foresee that, for some customers, this would make the i4 an inferior phone to the i3gs, and we apologize. We are working on a permanent fix, and when we find one, all existing i4 owners that are experiencing problems will get the fix for free. In the mean time, here are some bumpers."

That's not even close to what they said.

 

[Journojulz]

The proof being that you say so.

Well a third party opinion is usually involved in letting someone know they are whining. (I am not the first)

There is a subtle difference between complaining and whining - where "solving the problem" seems less of an issue than "not directly paying enough attention to how I feel".

No. Simply say "yes, we admit the i4 has a different problem than other phones, and it was caused by a tradeoff in the antenna design. We didn't foresee that, for some customers, this would make the i4 an inferior phone to the i3gs, and we apologize. We are working on a permanent fix,

That bit is the whine. Its not about the fix - its about you.

If you need it explicitly said that they are doing something as obvious as 'trying to fix the problem' - then you will never be satisfied.

and when we find one, all existing i4 owners that are experiencing problems will get the fix for free.

This is the part of your output that made me ask if you expecting a full recall.

Do you expect apple will call for a return of 3+ million phones for a clearly defined minor issue which has a very easy workaround that is cured with a freebie?

 

[cmaier]

Well a third party opinion is usually involved in letting someone know they are whining. (I am not the first)

You are a second party, not a third. And you are the first to accuse me of whining.

There is a subtle difference between complaining and whining - where "solving the problem" seems less of an issue than "not directly paying enough attention to how I feel".

That bit is the whine. Its not about the fix - its about you.

If you need it explicitly said that they are doing something as obvious as 'trying to fix the problem' - then you will never be satisfied.

This is not about how I feel. It's about how rational consumers will feel about the Apple brand in light of Apple's behavior at the press conference.

The obvious thing for apple to say is they will fix the problem. They didn't say it. That means they will not fix the problem (for existing customers, anyway).

This is the part of your output that made me ask if you expecting a full recall.

Do you expect apple will call for a return of 3+ million phones for a clearly defined minor issue which has a very easy workaround that is cured with a freebie?

First, I don't make predictions, which is what your question calls for. I told you what I think Apple SHOULD do. I didn't say anything about a recall ,and I didn't say anything about an action that would, in practical effect, reach 3+ million phones. I specifically talked about phones that are causing people problems. I told you exactly what I thought apple should do. You turned around and pretended I think apple should do something completely different. I talk about a fix. You talk about a recall. That is called a strawman argument, and it is an indication of someone who doesn't have facts on his side.

The workaround isn't a "cure." It's a band-aid. If you buy a BMW that, due to a design flaw, only operates over 50 MPH if you avoid putting your left foot on the foot rest, a free floormat is not an acceptable fix.

 

[Journojulz]

This is not about how I feel. It's about how rational consumers will feel about the Apple brand in light of Apple's behavior at the press conference.

I felt they did the right thing.

Offered a freebie that cures the problem or a refund if that wasn't good enough.

Choose one. You can always keep the refund to one side and wait for 4Gs.

I talk about a fix. You talk about a recall.

What if the only fix is a physical redesign of the phone?

 

[-aggie-]

The proof being that you say so.

No. Simply say "yes, we admit the i4 has a different problem than other phones, and it was caused by a tradeoff in the antenna design. We didn't foresee that, for some customers, this would make the i4 an inferior phone to the i3gs, and we apologize. We are working on a permanent fix, and when we find one, all existing i4 owners that are experiencing problems will get the fix for free. In the mean time, here are some bumpers."

That's not even close to what they said.

Whatever you want to call it, whining, complaining, or whatever, the media has moved on, Apple has moved on, so you might as well move on. Take it back and refuse to buy the next. If there are enough of you that do that, then Apple might try to do more, however I think they’re busy trying to make it better anyway.

Had Apple said what you wanted, word for word, I expect there would still be complaining on this site. We’d get threads like “DO you think they’ll fix it tomorrow?” The story would go on and on.