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Anyone else abandoning ship?
- Thread starter ibivibiv
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Yet Apple is clearly doing this, with price points that exceed the average consumer, weaker features/performance and usability for heavy professional users who are willing to pay $4K-$5K or more as long as the value exists. All topped off with questionable reliability solely due to aesthetics, potentially self vanity
I agree it makes no sense, equally sometimes history simply repeats...
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I don't agree that the plan is fewer units with higher margins. I think Apple is looking to expand their profitable iPhone/iPad designs, methods and model of operation, to their laptops and desktops/AIOs. iOS devices run on Apple CPUs, they're glued and soldered together, they're non-upgradeable, they're pretty much unrepairable (they even went as far as deliberately crippling devices that had 3rd party home butoon replacements at one point) and are disposable appliances locked to an annual merry-go-round of incremental 'upgrades'. Their laptops are heading in the same direction, and the mythical new Mac Pro may well follow suit. Microsoft are trying it too, with the Surface Laptop.
What Apple have failed to grasp, however, is that the market demographic for laptops and desktops isn't the same as the one for phones and tablets, and that a great many computer buyers are a lot more discerning than phone buyers, and they will not accept Apple's closed, proprietary nonsense, especially with their inflated prices in an already-expensive sector, and their underwhelming performance.
If you purchase the “Haptic Touch-bar” app it will add haptic feedback and display the escape key. But otherwise yeah, the touch-bar is pretty much useless and came at the expense of the Fn I did use. If I had the option to order my MBP without the Touch Bar I would have.
I used to be very favorable to the 2016+ design. Better screen, thinner, lighter, usb-c is the future, much improved speakers, faster, best visual design ever, etc. I actually love the butterfly keyboard too - it’s my favorite keyboard I’ve used. I even prefer not having a glowing Apple logo (yeah yeah, I know). I still would choose these models over the 2015 year and older models, but I’ve come to realize there are just a few things that have me apprehensive towards these models and where the MBPs are going in the future.
I don’t like the touchbar. I can see what Apple was thinking with it, but it’s not thought through. You can use more functions with the same space, but you now have to look down every time you do it, making it completely anti-ergonomic. The functions change for each app so there’s no muscle memory and there is no physical indication of what you’re touching either. It makes the experience worse while using up more battery and raising costs. I hope this is removed or at least optional in the future because I really just don’t want it.
The reliability issues are obviously very scary. There are just so many issues. Keyboard issues, stagelighting, T2 chip, speakers popping or being ruined completely, etc.
The price is what got me to switch to Windows (which I used to say I’d never do again). The 15” Pros seem to be at a bare minimum $500 more than similarly specced Windows laptop. My XPS 15 was literally $1000 less than the comparable MBP and that MBP included an education discount and a 5% discount on top of that.
It bothers me because I really wanna go full Apple and invest more into the ecosystem. I miss macOS, iMessage on my computer, the apps, continuity, passwords saved across my phone, iPad, and computer, etc. I haven’t bought AirPods yet, but I plan to eventually and I’d love to have that seemless connecting experience to my computer too. But it’s just too expensive. It’s not even that I can’t afford it. It’s just that the value isn’t there. I would feel, literally, stupid to spend $1000 more on a computer with almost the same hardware.
I even tried doing a refurbished MBP for 2 weeks to see if it was worth selling my XPS for and switching back to Mac. Even with hundreds of dollars off due to the refurbished condition and knowing I’d get a good amount of it covered by selling my XPS, I couldn’t do it. It still was just a stupid amount of money.
I don’t like the touchbar. I can see what Apple was thinking with it, but it’s not thought through. You can use more functions with the same space, but you now have to look down every time you do it, making it completely anti-ergonomic. The functions change for each app so there’s no muscle memory and there is no physical indication of what you’re touching either. It makes the experience worse while using up more battery and raising costs. I hope this is removed or at least optional in the future because I really just don’t want it.
The reliability issues are obviously very scary. There are just so many issues. Keyboard issues, stagelighting, T2 chip, speakers popping or being ruined completely, etc.
The price is what got me to switch to Windows (which I used to say I’d never do again). The 15” Pros seem to be at a bare minimum $500 more than similarly specced Windows laptop. My XPS 15 was literally $1000 less than the comparable MBP and that MBP included an education discount and a 5% discount on top of that.
It bothers me because I really wanna go full Apple and invest more into the ecosystem. I miss macOS, iMessage on my computer, the apps, continuity, passwords saved across my phone, iPad, and computer, etc. I haven’t bought AirPods yet, but I plan to eventually and I’d love to have that seemless connecting experience to my computer too. But it’s just too expensive. It’s not even that I can’t afford it. It’s just that the value isn’t there. I would feel, literally, stupid to spend $1000 more on a computer with almost the same hardware.
I even tried doing a refurbished MBP for 2 weeks to see if it was worth selling my XPS for and switching back to Mac. Even with hundreds of dollars off due to the refurbished condition and knowing I’d get a good amount of it covered by selling my XPS, I couldn’t do it. It still was just a stupid amount of money.
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Agree 1000%. If Apple charges customers $1000 plus on their notebooks over what I now have (Lenovo X1 Extreme), it had better be the absolute super duper computer with no simple issues like the keyboard, T2 chip, Flexgate. and some what useless Touchbar. But the MacBook Pro is not and that is a shame. Shame on you Apple and Tim Cook.
I tend to agree, if Apple could "lose" the Mac it would do in a heartbeat. Problem being the Mac still remains to be symbolic of Apple that many follow with or without ownership. IMO Apple has been cycling down the Mac for years, however the fans and the tech press are too vocal and Apple is very much about image.
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That's been my contention. In years past, Apple had a beautiful design, great trackpad, awesome display and wonderful
With the 2016 - 2018 model design, we have an even more expensive laptop that is showing itself to be less durable, has keyboard issues, and features that detract from its usefulness (touchbar). I rolled the dice with Apple for the 2018 model, and lost, because they failed to fix the flawed keyboard. Comparing my X1E, I paid 2286 (thanks to incentives) where as Apple would have charge me over 4,300 dollars for a similarly configured MBP.
I love my X1E, the design of the X1E, is not as sexy as the MBP, its a larger laptop to be sure, but I'll take a slightly larger form factor, 1/2 lbs heavier laptop that has a superior keyboard, better build quality imo and cost 2,000 then the MBP.
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Apple does this with hardware as it reduces production costs, it's also pushing prices. Bottom line to me Apple has a production and revenue target for the Mac and that's what it's achieving. Apple could easily have a far larger footprint with the Mac, however that's not the direction Apple is headed, nor has it been for a long time.
Mac Pro will simply be a showpiece for Apple to wheel out for the tech press, it will sell in few numbers, likely barely cover cost. What it will do is lessen the bashing from the tech press as Apple is very conscious of is it's image. Very likely the Trashcan all over again, although with some lessons learnt so it doesn't wheel round and backfire as the Trashcan did. it will be just as locked down as any other Mac as that's how Apple want's it's hardware to be as it want's full control.
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I honestly believe that there was an alternate universe scenario where Tim and the rest of leadership had thought and hoped that the iPad already would have taken over for the vast majority of current Mac usage.
I think there's some truth to that, the iPad has not taken hold to the degree i think Apple had hoped it would.
Yep.
That was the original “ARM transition” they had in mind.
... move the Mac users to ARM devices, not MacOS to ARM.
I still think it’s possible, but they would have to get radically better with their software and adapt much more to what people like to use the Mac for and also vastly expand the hardware there.
(i.e. iPad hardware that’s much more diverse with some much larger options and perhaps even some clamshell “MacBook” style devices with trackpads for cursor control of some kind at times, etc)
That said, I think we are now on an alternate path of the Mac going to ARM so who knows what that will result in at this point.
Apple and Huawei are still the only two companies having growth in the tablet market. In the case of Apple, it has been slow growth recently, but they do hold a huge marketshare lead over Huawei.
I wonder if it is a case of the novelty of the tablet has worn off? Or is Microsoft's Panos Panay correct when he says 98% of iPad owners also own a laptop? People are finding they just can't work with a tablet alone, so if choosing 1 device are not choosing the iPad? Maybe people just aren't seeing the value of having to have both anymore?
2-1 devices are set to see the largest growth trends in the next 5 years if Market Watch is correct in their predictions. That seems to be a market niche Apple has been resistant to follow.
I think there's a lot of truth in that, equally as long as iPad runs on a phone OS it's never likely to pose a threat to the likes of a notebook or a well designed 2in1.
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When I recently tumbled the idea of getting a new tablet either IOS or Android, I ended up opting for an Acer Switch 5 (i3, 4Gb, 128SSD + 256 microSD) with W10 as it was comparatively priced. It can do what neither IOS or Android devices can come close to being capable of, so the decision was relatively easy.
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Yes, the post pc era, remember? But you never know what is coming down the pike with tech. When Steve so proudly introduced the iPad and talked about the post pc, he didn't know that Microsoft of all companies was working to bring the Surface to light, and thus took off the 2 and 1 era. That also helped to take down Android (Samsung Note tablet) as people who had started to use them as mobile work units switched back to PC's. Now we have Windows, Chromebooks, and iPad pro... A very different reality from 2009.
I feel the same way, which is why I did a poll in another thread. The keyboard just sucks on my 2017 MB Pro. It's horrible. The trackpad way too big. The TouchBar a gimmick that is a problem in search of a solution.
That feature is an odd one, to be sure. I really don't understand the thinking or the motivation to make the trackpad so ginormous. To this day, I've not heard any good explanations. While I feel Apple's palm rejection is probably the best in the business, and I hadn't had any issues there, the fact that it was so large was and is an odd choice
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I'd say the majority of people needing to do work, own a laptop. There are dedicated folks who have embraced the post PC menality to be sure. The iPad has discussions on how people use the iPad as the main and only machine. My mother is another example. She's older does not want to deal with PCs. All she wants is to read emails and look at stuff on facebook. That class of people also iPad only.
That looks nice, but it is pricey, at least for what I would find useful. I'm liking the idea of a tablet as an adjunct to my laptop, i.e., note taking, emails, minor office tasks, while my main computer is focused on the heavier lifting. For me, that light and auxiliary need is not worth spending that much money. YMMV
That was in the same period Apple added the touch bar and also introduced the iPad pro with additional keyboard. In that period the Surface Pro line (including touch screen/convertible tablet/notebook options etc.) became more and more popular. Could the big trackpad, touch bar, keyboard with iPad Pro etc. be an effort from Apple to convince people that:
- a touch screen on notebooks is not necessary
- the iPad could be used as a 'pro' notebook as well?
Disclaimer: I am just speculating, I could be wrong.
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Without question, the iPad pro is apple's response to the surface pro line, everything that the surface pro was, found its way into the iPad Pro. As for the touchbar, I agree, it was apple's lame and unsuccessful effort to respond to the popularity of touch screen laptops.
My Switch 5 cost me $650 all in, keyboard & Pen are included and one of the attractions. A SP6 would be overkill and over twice the price, Surface Go underpowered and still a good bit more expensive once the keyboard & pen are factored in. Is the Switch 5 as polished as Surface? No equally it's not lightyears behind and basically equivalent of an SP5 with better cooling (i3 holds 2.7GHz as long as is needed, which beats SP5 with i5 as it will throttle).
So looking at a higher spec Android or IOS tablet the Switch 5 make a lot of sense as it's far more capable. Has full Pen & Touch input, USB C (charging capable), USB A, dedicated power port (barrel type), microSD Card slot (256Gb in mine) and fingerprint reader. I avoided the up sale of the i5 & 8Gb RAM as I knew the intended usage was lightweight, so far the Switch 5 has exceeded my expectations.
I never really considered the Switch 5, rather came across one by accident, at just $650 it was certainly worth a look. For the asking price the Switch 5 is a great utility device with little to complain about.
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For that, I'd say its doable, a quick goolgle at the price closer the 1,000 dollar mark.
I feel like I'm in between the SP6 and the Go, I don't mind the lack of performance but the smaller display I think gives me pause.
Ipad Pro is like a calculator with an A12 chip inside. Yes, we get it that it's powerful, but can it please get a proper OS?
I haven't kept up recently but what are some viable exodus PC laptops?
I hear the XPS has become quite a great machine? Any others like Lenovo? Or MS side?
I would think those would be where I'd look when and if my 2016 nTB becomes costly to repair and out of warranty (as it will be at end of this year, but got another year of protection against keyboard issues. would love an extra year or so for flexgate, but so far no acknowledgment of that issue sadly)
I hear the XPS has become quite a great machine? Any others like Lenovo? Or MS side?
I would think those would be where I'd look when and if my 2016 nTB becomes costly to repair and out of warranty (as it will be at end of this year, but got another year of protection against keyboard issues. would love an extra year or so for flexgate, but so far no acknowledgment of that issue sadly)
First hit $700 for the i5/8GB
The i3 at $650 is sweet as it's not at all far behind the i5 in IRL and has faster base clocks (no Turbo mind). As they are all passively cooled more is sometimes just too much (i7) (i5/8GB/256 being close to $1K for me)This was my situation, as 10" is fine Android, IOS and UWP Apps, not so much with full applications. I too was torn between the SP6 & Surface Go, with one being too much of everything, the other underpowered and small to the point of being cute and in my locale coming in at around $800 with KB & Pen. The Switch 5 is one price for all
I like the flexibility the Switch 5 offers (for me) as it has both USB A & USB C, so out and about visiting contractors facilities no need for dongles, just the one should I need to present. As my mobility requirement changes I would definitely consider the SP6/7 with a higher spec (i7/16/512) as a primary, however for a very much adjunct device that is out in all weathers in the field, I don't want to be overly concerned with an expensive unit.
I think it's worth opening the horizons for such an adjunct device as there's a lot of options out there for better price points than Surface. Switch 5 IMO I would place above an SP5 and below the SP6, so not too shabby. I could have bought SP6, equally I'd likely have opted for black, all in that's pushing $1400 and truth be known I wouldn't get any more use out of it for the additional cost
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Very much depends on your intended use as on the PC side the choice and options are very significant to say the least. Right now Lenovo's ThinkPad X1E & X1C are firm favourites with multiple members owning. Very much liking myself although currently I need both more and less performance from my portables, 17.3" hex core with big GPU & 12" 2in1 tablet form PC.
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The XPSses as well as various Lenovos seem good choices. Have a look at the HP Spectre x360 (MobileTechReviews "BOB" aka "best of the best") as well.
I'd personally stay away from Microsoft. Those machines are as glued down as Macs, I see no reason to leave one overpriced gluing company for another one of the same kind (with a known history of market power and personal data abuse)
It seems to me that if you’re interested in just getting stuff done and mainly concerned about the business end of that equation… A Thinkpad is the way to go.
I agree with the comments about not wanting to trade one glued down solution for another.
I agree with the comments about not wanting to trade one glued down solution for another.