Anyone else think Snow Leopard... sucks?

[nutmac]

I think it took Apple a lot of guts to release "refactored" release of Mac OS X. I think Apple was looking at lose-lose situation with 10.6 for various reasons:

• Multiple architectures (Power PC, Intel 32-bit, X86) and APIs (Cocoa, Carbon) are taxing Mac OS X and developers with suboptimal foundation and frameworks.
• Modern CPUs and GPUs work quite differently and require much more complex programming to leap full benefits.
• Adding more visible features, such as new user interface, would justify higher price tag and more buzz, but that requires more time and/or development efforts.
• Focusing on visible features in past Mac OS X releases have resulted in lots of bugs "under the carpet" that require more substantial back-end changes. Adding more visible features often hamper these fixes.
• Meanwhile, Microsoft is set to release Windows 7 in Q3 2009.

If you have programmed before, you know the drill. For one reason or the other, Apple had to put a break on features. And the result is $29 Mac OS X 10.6 "Snow Leopard". Love it or hate it, it had to be done to move Mac OS X forward and when 10.7 is released, most of us will thank Apple for it.

 

[jaw04005]

These threads always turn into Apple vs. Microsoft. But I do find it funny that some believe Apple couldn't add new features AND rewrite OS X at the same time.

They've did it before. In 10.2, Apple completely rewrote the OS's printing engine integrating CUPS. Additionally, we've gotten new developer features in every version of Mac OS X. Quartz Extreme (10.2), Core Audio (10.2), Core Video (10.4), Core Image (10.4), Core Data (10.4) and Core Animation (10.5) all came directly as the result of a new Mac OS X release.

Hell, Xcode didn't exist until 10.3. I would bet Apple's OS feature and framework teams are completely separate teams anyway.

If anything, Snow Leopard represents Apple's current attention (and resource diversion) toward the iPhone platform. That's where the growth is at the moment.

It's no secret that the Mac division has sort of taken a back seat the last few years. It's their "mature" division, and as such is not Apple's (or more reasonably Steve Jobs') primary focus right now. Snow Leopard is the result. It essentially gave Apple's engineers a two-year excuse to focus on the iPhone.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with 10.7 and whether or not it's discussed at WWDC '10.

 

[VirtualRain]

I'm fine with just changes under the hood, but I would have liked one thing that the mac has never had: a decent file manager. Finder is just disgraceful. They should have used this SL opportunity to re-think how file managing should be done. Re-think from scratch. You can't "fix" Finder. It is conceptually fatally flawed and so painful to use in everyday life that I experience panic attacks just thinking I have to invoke it. It is hard to get any work done with Finder. Moving files is an unparalleled horror. Even windoze does it better. Browsing files - horror. Try seeing where everything is at a glance - you can't. At least in a tree system you can.

Apple should have called their brightest minds, and said: re-think the whole concept. Find us a brand new way of managing files that will revolutionize the entire field. Make it as profound a change as any. Because in the end, that's what a file manager is: it is the central function of a OS - this is where we interact with our data. Astonish us, Apple. Don't disgust us, as with Finder. Finder = FAIL.

Agreed. This is one of the most important areas of OSX they could and should have addressed with this release.

I could care less about UI, and stupid features like stacks, and cover flow, but one essential function of an OS is file management, and that's where OSX is weak.

The fact that Pathfinder is on the shortlist of nearly every Mac power user's preferred apps list, is a testament to how bad the Finder sucks.

Windows users exploring OSX for the first time at Best Buy or the Apple store are likely to try doing some basic operations in the finder and simply go WTF?! and go back to Windows.

It's horrible. Finder = EPIC Fail!

 

[rpp3po]

When you read many posts in this thread is it no surprise that an internal term at Apple for its customer crowd is "bozos".

 

[sammy2066]

The most important takeaway from this thread is that : Finder = FAIL.

Seriously, what's taking so long?

 

[MarkCooz]

FWIW, I installed 10A432 on my Late 2008 MBP - 2.4Ghz, 4GB RAM - and not only did I recover 20+ GB of space, but it is *lightning* fast. Leopard was perfectly quick IMO, but the responsiveness of this system is unreal. Super fast.

that is super true!
It freed up like 20GB of space, when i upgraded to SL.
it's fast and i think it's really reliable.
lets just hope it won't crash or unstable my editing softwares

 

[nutmac]

These threads always turn into Apple vs. Microsoft. But I do find it funny that some believe Apple couldn't add new features AND rewrite OS X at the same time.

They've did it before. In 10.2, Apple completely rewrote the OS's printing engine integrating CUPS. Additionally, we've gotten new developer features in every version of Mac OS X. Quartz Extreme (10.2), Core Audio (10.2), Core Video (10.4), Core Image (10.4), Core Data (10.4) and Core Animation (10.5) all came directly as the result of a new Mac OS X release.

10.2 did not rewrite the Mac OS X in a significant way. It's an evolutionary step toward completing Mac OS X. 10.1 was considered "feature" complete of 10.0, which is pretty much all new (parts of it based on NeXT, Copland, etc.). As such, 10.2 did not have to rewrite major existing components. And CUPS is a UNIX printing engine that Apple merely ported in. 10.6 further completes CUPS support with Internet printing.

And if you want to talk about developer features like Core Audio, what do you think 10.6 is? Open CL, Grand Central Dispatch all have APIs to help developers get most out of modern Macs.

And if Apple could add more visible features while improving underpinnings at the same time, all within the same time frame, it would've. But Apple's OS engineering resource isn't as plentiful as it once was (spreading with iPhone and other component OS's).

 

[jaw04005]

As such, 10.2 did not have to rewrite major existing components. And CUPS is a UNIX printing engine that Apple merely ported in. 10.6 further completes CUPS support with Internet printing.

Replacing the current print engine with CUPS was a huge deal at the time. It required major work by printer manufacturers to adopt their drivers. It wasn't simply a port. And my point was Apple has in the past made significant changes to OS X including replacing/updating/rewriting parts of the OS while at the same time adding additional features. It's just the nature of OS development, and that didn't start with Snow Leopard.

And if you want to talk about developer features like Core Audio, what do you think 10.6 is? Open CL, Grand Central Dispatch all have APIs to help developers get most out of modern Macs.

Again, you entirely missed the point. Core Audio, Image, Animation, Quartz Extreme, etc were all added to their respective versions of Mac OS X in addition to new features.

And if Apple could add more visible features while improving underpinnings at the same time, all within the same time frame, it would've. But Apple's OS engineering resource isn't as plentiful as it once was (spreading with iPhone and other component OS's).

Which is exactly what I said. Although I don't buy your premiss that Apple's OS engineering resources are not as plentiful as they once were. In fact, I'm willing to bet Apple actually has more OS engineers now more than ever. They're just working on the iPhone OS currently instead of OS X.

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

When you read many posts in this thread is it no surprise that an internal term at Apple for its customer crowd is "bozos".

Great, why not stop development altogether...

 

[Kat King123]

i LOVE how people say snow leopard is not that much faster than leopard when there isnt even a official final build yet

 

[Stachelsk]

i LOVE how people say snow leopard is not that much faster than leopard when there isnt even a official final build yet

I don't see why people can't say it's faster than Leopard already...
Do you think Apple will purposely slow down the final build of SL?

 

[rpp3po]

Great, why not stop development altogether...

What does this speculative kindergarten discussion (well large parts of it) have to do with Apple's actual development? Do you really think anything of this has >0 influence on any development decision?

The majority of posts are pied sand castles built on a foundation of sciolism. And not because there would not be enough information, but because all kinds of deductions are drawn from concepts posters don't even seem to have grasped half-way.

 

[adr1974]

what's a pied sand castle? can SL do that?

 

[rwilliams]

A service pack???? They darn near rewrote the entire OS and included several significant new technologies. And you call it it a service pack?

With all due respect, Windows XP was basically rewritten for the release of Service Pack 2, and they included some major security features (well, major for Microsoft) that hadn't been seen before in a base Windows installation. That's exactly what the release of Snow Leopard feels like to me. Of course, many of you will disagree, and that's fine. To each his own.

 

[rwilliams]

And don't get me wrong - I will buy Snow Leopard, eventually. But the excitement of picking up a new OS on its release date is virtually nonexistent here. Since most of the benefits of having Snow Leopard won't be seen until several months down the road (when developers can release newer versions of their software), I'll wait until the new apps start to hit the marketplace before shelling out the $29 for SL.

 

[TheSpaz]

And don't get me wrong - I will buy Snow Leopard, eventually. But the excitement of picking up a new OS on its release date is virtually nonexistent here. Since most of the benefits of having Snow Leopard won't be seen until several months down the road (when developers can release newer versions of their software), I'll wait until the new apps start to hit the marketplace before shelling out the $29 for SL.

Shelling out a whole $29!?!?! WHOA now... don't do that.

Snow Leopard is going to be BETTER than Leopard on day 1. Why not just save up for a few weeks until you have 2,900 pennies and buy it when it comes out? What have you got to lose? If anything... you'll be only gaining even in the first hours of owning Snow Leopard.

 

[rwilliams]

Shelling out a whole $29!?!?! WHOA now... don't do that.

Snow Leopard is going to be BETTER than Leopard on day 1. Why not just save up for a few weeks until you have 2,900 pennies and buy it when it comes out? What have you got to lose? If anything... you'll be only gaining even in the first hours of owning Snow Leopard.

LOL. For one, I have Leopard running smooth and fast, and I'm not about to mess with that until I know for sure that Snow Leopard performs just as well. I'd like to wait and hear from others about how the release version performs. Secondly, since there are no "must have" features (for me, anyway) in SL at this point in time, then there's no harm in waiting until 10.6.1 is released to iron out any kinks in the OS. I remember reading about how people had serious problems with the initial release of Leopard. I'd rather not be one of those people.

 

[sidewinder]

With all due respect, Windows XP was basically rewritten for the release of Service Pack 2, and they included some major security features (well, major for Microsoft) that hadn't been seen before in a base Windows installation. That's exactly what the release of Snow Leopard feels like to me. Of course, many of you will disagree, and that's fine. To each his own.

No, you are wrong. XP SP2 was not not a rewrite. Heck, Microsoft keeps putting layer upon layer of code on top of their core code. They did this when they went from XP to Vista and they are doing now when going from Vista to 7. This is why their OS is so bloated. Microsoft has been unwilling or unable to do what Apple is doing with Snow Leopard.

S-

 

[uberamd]

No, you are wrong. XP SP2 was not not a rewrite. Heck, Microsoft keeps putting layer upon layer of code on top of their core code. They did this when they went from XP to Vista and they are doing now when going from Vista to 7. This is why their OS is so bloated. Microsoft has been unwilling or unable to do what Apple is doing with Snow Leopard.

S-

Truth. Windows is very bloated for this exact reason.

 

[Slurpy2k8]

Agreed. This is one of the most important areas of OSX they could and should have addressed with this release.

I could care less about UI, and stupid features like stacks, and cover flow, but one essential function of an OS is file management, and that's where OSX is weak.

The fact that Pathfinder is on the shortlist of nearly every Mac power user's preferred apps list, is a testament to how bad the Finder sucks.

Windows users exploring OSX for the first time at Best Buy or the Apple store are likely to try doing some basic operations in the finder and simply go WTF?! and go back to Windows.

It's horrible. Finder = EPIC Fail!

That quote on the Snow Leopard page, 'The completely new, exactly-the-same Finder' just blows my mind.'

So Apple took the trouble of completely rewriting the finder, which they're so incredibly proud of doing, without bothering to improve it or add features to it in any way, even though it sorely needs an overhaul. Its amazing. Whats wrong with adding tabs, like Safari? The list can go on forever. You'd think they can make some changes if they're rewriting it completely. Same with many of the other apps they rewrote.

 

[uberamd]

That quote on the Snow Leopard page, 'The completely new, exactly-the-same Finder' just blows my mind.'

So Apple took the trouble of completely reqriting the finder, which they're so incredibly proud of doing, without bothering to improve it or add features to it in any way, even though it sorely needs an overhaul. Its amazing. Whats wrong with adding tabs, like Safari? The list can go on forever. You'd think they can make some changes if they're rewriting it completely. Same with many of the other apps they rewrote.

Use Pathfinder then.

 

[TheSpaz]

That quote on the Snow Leopard page, 'The completely new, exactly-the-same Finder' just blows my mind.'

So Apple took the trouble of completely rewriting the finder, which they're so incredibly proud of doing, without bothering to improve it or add features to it in any way, even though it sorely needs an overhaul. Its amazing. Whats wrong with adding tabs, like Safari? The list can go on forever. You'd think they can make some changes if they're rewriting it completely. Same with many of the other apps they rewrote.

Why do they NEED to make changes? Are you bored with the current Finder? I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[rwilliams]

No, you are wrong. XP SP2 was not not a rewrite. Heck, Microsoft keeps putting layer upon layer of code on top of their core code. They did this when they went from XP to Vista and they are doing now when going from Vista to 7. This is why their OS is so bloated. Microsoft has been unwilling or unable to do what Apple is doing with Snow Leopard.

S-

Then I stand corrected, good sir.

And I thought that at one point, Microsoft completely did away with the Longhorn code because it had become an unmanageable disaster and rewrote Vista from scratch, basing it on the same core code as Windows Server 2008. Is that not the case?

*EDIT* - Ok, no that's not the case. Server 2008 is based on the Vista core, and even though Longhorn was scrapped and the development reset, it wasn't a complete rewrite. Parts of Vista were completely rewritten (networking stack), but not the entire thing.

 

[Slurpy2k8]

Why do they NEED to make changes? Are you bored with the current Finder? I don't see anything wrong with it.

Maybe you don't, but many, many others do. Am I 'bored' with it? What a silly question. Its an extremely crappy and limited file managament system in this day and age. I'll never understand some of you apologizers, who deem it necessary to clap and applaud even when Apple does absolutely nothing, then go out of their way to bash those who expect some improvement. Its rather pathetic.

 

[wankey]

Then I stand corrected, good sir.

And I thought that at one point, Microsoft completely did away with the Longhorn code because it had become an unmanageable disaster and rewrote Vista from scratch, basing it on the same core code as Windows Server 2008. Is that not the case?

*EDIT* - Ok, no that's not the case. Server 2008 is based on the Vista core, and even though Longhorn was scrapped and the development reset, it wasn't a complete rewrite. Parts of Vista were completely rewritten (networking stack), but not the entire thing.

Snow Leopard isn't a rewrite either. I don't understand why people think they rewrote millions of lines of code for SL.