Anyone else think Snow Leopard... sucks?

[sidewinder]

Snow Leopard isn't a rewrite either. I don't understand why people think they rewrote millions of lines of code for SL.

Yes, Snow Leopard is a rewrite.

Did they rewrite every line of code? Of course not. The code did not need to be rewritten was obviously left alone. What they did do was rewrite the OS so the layers of code written to change the behavior of the base code are all gone. The OS is now clean with new integrated technologies and is a new base to work from.

S-

 

[revs]

Yes, Snow Leopard is a rewrite.

Did they rewrite every line of code? Of course not. The code did not need to be rewritten was obviously left alone. What they did do was rewrite the OS so the layers of code written to change the behavior of the base code are all gone. The OS is now clean with new integrated technologies and is a new base to work from.

S-

I have read that they 'touched' 90% of the code. Thats not re-written, but they went through a lot of the code and re-factored and improved.

The alternative of course was to make us wait 3 or 4 yrs until the next OS X release (i.e. time to do what they did for Snow Leopard and then time to add new UI features). So I'm happy we got SL.

 

[dpw2atox]

While Snow Leopard isn't a full rewrite I already can see its use from an end user perspective. I installed 10A432 about 2 days ago and since then it has run great.

I found a few bugs here and there but nothing serious. Are there a ton of new UI features? No. That's ok though. A lot of the code was optimized, PPC code was removed, a lot of apps were rewritten in 64bit and finally finder isn't a steaming pile of crap.

Finder i think got some of the most attention application wise. It was rewritten in Cocoa and also is 64 bit now. I think the only mistake Apple did with the new Finder is not changing the UI more since by looking at it you wont notice any difference. Still the moment I fired up finder, I noticed right away that it is a lot faster, espcially browsing network shares.

Could Apple have done more? Yes but this is an evolutionary upgrade not a revolutionary.

 

[Richard1028]

Why do they NEED to make changes? Are you bored with the current Finder? I don't see anything wrong with it.

Finder sucks.

Make cut/paste work with files. Apple knows it should do this... knows it makes sense but refuses to add this functionality simply because Windows does it. (And all you, "mouse-happy-drag-and-droppers" can defend Apple's reasons for not doing this and you'll be wrong).

And while they're at it... make the freaking app/document/folder open when I press the ENTER key.

There's a ton of other things but these two really chap my arse because omitting them is just plain stupid.

 

[cmaier]

That quote on the Snow Leopard page, 'The completely new, exactly-the-same Finder' just blows my mind.'

So Apple took the trouble of completely rewriting the finder, which they're so incredibly proud of doing, without bothering to improve it or add features to it in any way, even though it sorely needs an overhaul. Its amazing. Whats wrong with adding tabs, like Safari? The list can go on forever. You'd think they can make some changes if they're rewriting it completely. Same with many of the other apps they rewrote.

No no no no no. NO TABS IN FINDER. YUCK! Please, read this: http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2003/04/finder.ars

 

[cmaier]

Finder sucks.

Make cut/paste work with files. Apple knows it should do this... knows it makes sense but refuses to add this functionality simply because Windows does it. (And all you, "mouse-happy-drag-and-droppers" can defend Apple's reasons for not doing this and you'll be wrong).

And while they're at it... make the freaking app/document/folder open when I press the ENTER key.

There's a ton of other things but these two really chap my arse because omitting them is just plain stupid.

Argh! I'm a windows user since 1.0, but what the heck does it mean to "cut" a file? It destroys the metaphor. The existing finder sucks, don't get me wrong, but the fix is to make it more like the old mac finder (albeit with 21st century improvements), not to make it like windows explorer.

 

[TheSpaz]

Finder sucks.

Make cut/paste work with files. Apple knows it should do this... knows it makes sense but refuses to add this functionality simply because Windows does it. (And all you, "mouse-happy-drag-and-droppers" can defend Apple's reasons for not doing this and you'll be wrong).

And while they're at it... make the freaking app/document/folder open when I press the ENTER key.

There's a ton of other things but these two really chap my arse because omitting them is just plain stupid.

So you think the Finder is stupid because it doesn't behave like Windows? Get over it. You're using a Mac now... not Windows. Just because Apple didn't implement something that Windows has, doesn't mean that they're only doing it because Windows already did it.

Why doesn't Windows allow you to make a new folder with a keyboard command?

 

[whooleytoo]

Finder sucks.

Make cut/paste work with files. Apple knows it should do this... knows it makes sense but refuses to add this functionality simply because Windows does it. (And all you, "mouse-happy-drag-and-droppers" can defend Apple's reasons for not doing this and you'll be wrong).

And while they're at it... make the freaking app/document/folder open when I press the ENTER key.

There's a ton of other things but these two really chap my arse because omitting them is just plain stupid.

Cut and paste might be nice. I'm quite a happy drag 'n' drop guy and wouldn't use it, but it's nice to have options.

I disagree on the second point though. I don't see any reason for Apple to use "Enter" to open items; other than 'Microsoft did it differently so everyone has to copy them'.

That said, I have plenty of minor problems with the Finder/OSX UI.

- Bring back pop-up windows.. all the dock/stack feature they've tried still haven't replicated the functionality we used to have back in MacOS 9.
- When you're about to paste a file, it never shows the name of the item in the clipboard.
- In icon view, you can't drag and drop a file to it's parent without having two windows open.
- In list view and column view, if there are a lot of files, you can't right click in the folder to (say) create a new folder.
- Working with network shares can be a pain.

etc..etc..

 

[devburke]

Browsing files - horror. Try seeing where everything is at a glance - you can't. At least in a tree system you can

You mean kinda like this?

 

[xgman]

I'm finding that I already miss Leopard and am considering going back maybe until allot more apps have been updated. If you are a heavy 3rd party utility apps user, there are a great deal of incompatible apps that simply won't work on this yet. Also, it seems that there are some subtle differences in the way finder behaves that quite frankly I don't like at all. For one, now when you right click in a finder window, it outlines the folder or file you happen to be near and you can not just right click paste into the main area of the finder window unless you have empty space at the bottom of the window. I see no purpose in this new "outline" highlight in lieu of the regular highlight. It gets in the way. Also where did the extended "more" on the right click menu go? Gone. Anyway I had gotten so used to using 3rd party apps like, Smartscroll, Sticky Windows, Leopard Cache Cleaner, WinshadeX, and on and on and most just no longer work. I suppose that is to be expected as an early adopter, but in addition I see a lot of app crashes for no reason, Firefox, vlc, etc., and it seems to take longer to shut down now. I guess I'll get used to it and apps will be updated etc, but I'm not really sold on it as a worthwhile upgrade. I predict power users are in for some extended period of "issues".

 

[TheSpaz]

I'm finding that I already miss Leopard and am considering going back maybe until allot more apps have been updated. If you are a heavy 3rd party utility apps user, there are a great deal of incompatible apps that simply won't work on this yet. Also, it seems that there are some subtle differences in the way finder behaves that quite frankly I don't like at all. For one, now when you right click in a finder window, it outlines the folder or file you happen to be near and you can not just right click paste into the main area of the finder window unless you have empty space at the bottom of the window. I see no purpose in this new "outline" highlight in lieu of the regular highlight. It gets in the way. Also where did the extended "more" on the right click menu go? Gone. Anyway I had gotten so used to using 3rd party apps like, Smartscroll, Sticky Windows, Leopard Cache Cleaner, WinshadeX, and on and on and most just no longer work. I suppose that is to be expected as an early adopter, but in addition I see a lot of app crashes for no reason, Firefox, vlc, etc., and it seems to take longer to shut down now. I guess I'll get used to it and apps will be updated etc, but I'm not really sold on it as a worthwhile upgrade. I predict power users are in for some extended period of "issues".

Who the heck right-click's to paste? Just CMD-V.

Edit: In Tiger, when I right click a File, I still get the "Paste Item" option in the menu.

 

[Infrared]

i LOVE how people say snow leopard is not that much faster than leopard when there isnt even a official final build yet

This close to release you should have a pretty good idea how it
will perform. There should be no sudden changes. If there are it
means you are releasing it too early.

 

[Amdahl]

I found a few bugs here and there but nothing serious. Are there a ton of new UI features? No. That's ok though. A lot of the code was optimized, PPC code was removed, a lot of apps were rewritten in 64bit and finally finder isn't a steaming pile of crap.

PPC code wasn't removed. Snow Leopard still runs PPC applications.

The idea that PPC support some how 'slows' or 'bloats' OS X is wrong. Was 10.2, 10.3, or 10.4.0 slower because there was secret Intel support in the code? No.

The vast majority of Objective-C code is exactly the same whether you compile it for PPC, x86, AMD64, or ARM.

 

[devburke]

PPC code wasn't removed. Snow Leopard still runs PPC applications.

Well yeah, but doesn't that require Rosetta, which is only an optional install with SL?

 

[contoursvt]

You cut out something from one place and put it somewhere else. This works great and it makes sense for files as well. If you can cut a bunch of text from inside a document, why doesnt it make sense for a file? You're not cutting up the actual file or anything. You're cutting it out of its container which in this case is a folder or a drive. The same was as a file is a container for text or graphics...seems to be no issue cutting out something from that type of container. Metaphor works for me for both instances

Argh! I'm a windows user since 1.0, but what the heck does it mean to "cut" a file? It destroys the metaphor. The existing finder sucks, don't get me wrong, but the fix is to make it more like the old mac finder (albeit with 21st century improvements), not to make it like windows explorer.

 

[Macinposh]

When you read many posts in this thread is it no surprise that an internal term at Apple for its customer crowd is "bozos".

Well,I´ll throw in then a bozos guess : SL is the final os in the OS X series.


After that,it time for something new. A total start for a new series. A big whoomp to get the masses focus back to the computers.
Let´s call it...11.


Why? Apple moves a bit with a Tick-Tock mode,it has it marketing focuses that changes depending on it´s products and markets. iPods,iTunes,iPhone,iSomething.
Last years they have been concentrating on the "other stuff" but they cant carry on that forever. If (and when) they will have their dry spell in that area they will still*make their presence known.
With the SL they now buy about 18-24months timeout to do something drastic on the groundwork they have done in the SL.
Then around 2011 it is time again for a big bang,lay out the new grand schemes and foundations for new item/service developement.


Do I sound like I am totally on crack?

 

[cmaier]

You cut out something from one place and put it somewhere else. This works great and it makes sense for files as well. If you can cut a bunch of text from inside a document, why doesnt it make sense for a file? You're not cutting up the actual file or anything. You're cutting it out of its container which in this case is a folder or a drive. The same was as a file is a container for text or graphics...seems to be no issue cutting out something from that type of container. Metaphor works for me for both instances

Multiple reasons it makes no sense. First, in non-computer life, people used to actually cut and paste things from documents. You don't "cut" a file out of a folder, you remove it. And you don't "paste" it in. You put it in.

Further, now you have a separate pseudo-clipboard thing going on. What happens if you cut a file from a folder and try to paste it into a word processing document? What would that even mean?

The fact that it cut/paste files makes sense to us who have used windows for all these many years doesn't mean it makes sense.

 

[xgman]

Who the heck right-click's to paste? Just CMD-V.

Edit: In Tiger, when I right click a File, I still get the "Paste Item" option in the menu.

Yes, I know cmd v, I'm probably not explaining the change very well. It's that SL handles Right click inside a "Details" view finder window different from Leopard and it will take some getting used to for me.

 

[pdjudd]

PPC code wasn't removed. Snow Leopard still runs PPC applications.

Yes they are. Rosetta isn't really considered PPC code since its just a software layer. However, thats all intel code. In snow leopard, almost all the programs are 64 bit, so they are either Fat universals or Thin intel only apps.

The idea that PPC support some how 'slows' or 'bloats' OS X is wrong. Was 10.2, 10.3, or 10.4.0 slower because there was secret Intel support in the code? No.

If a program isn't universal and uses Rosetta, it can affect program performance depending on the program. Of course all of the OS's you talk about are PPC systems that ran on PPC hardware. PPC software ruining on Intel chips require additional resources

The vast majority of Objective-C code is exactly the same whether you compile it for PPC, x86, AMD64, or ARM.

Except if you strip out older libraries, the programs are smaller and less bloated. Plus your statement isn't universally true of all apps.

 

[xgman]

Multiple reasons it makes no sense. First, in non-computer life, people used to actually cut and paste things from documents. You don't "cut" a file out of a folder, you remove it. And you don't "paste" it in. You put it in.

Further, now you have a separate pseudo-clipboard thing going on. What happens if you cut a file from a folder and try to paste it into a word processing document? What would that even mean?

The fact that it cut/paste files makes sense to us who have used windows for all these many years doesn't mean it makes sense.

u h h . . . . huh?? Who cares what you call it. It is, always has been, and probably will be a glaring missing straightforward feature in Macs. What doesn't make any sense is all the dumb reasons people make up for why it is not enabled. We just get used to it and move on . . .

 

[cmaier]

u h h . . . . huh?? Who cares what you call it. It is, always has been, and probably will be a glaring missing straightforward feature in Macs. What doesn't make any sense is all the dumb reasons people make up for why it is not enabled. We just get used to it and move on . . .

What do you mean "who cares what you call it?" I don't call it anything. And if you can't provide a substantive response, resorting to calling the reasons "dumb" doesn't help your case any. Many experts on human machine interaction have thought long and hard about this. I'm guessing you're not an expert on much.

 

[contoursvt]

In non computer life people also used to ride around in horse drawn carriages. We make cars now without horses. Just because long ago we were used to having a horses ass in front of us, should we make cars to exactly simulate that too? No.

Cut and paste. Very simple. Removed from one place and put in another. Done.

Multiple reasons it makes no sense. First, in non-computer life, people used to actually cut and paste things from documents. You don't "cut" a file out of a folder, you remove it. And you don't "paste" it in. You put it in.

Further, now you have a separate pseudo-clipboard thing going on. What happens if you cut a file from a folder and try to paste it into a word processing document? What would that even mean?

The fact that it cut/paste files makes sense to us who have used windows for all these many years doesn't mean it makes sense.

 

[cmaier]

In non computer life people also used to ride around in horse drawn carriages. We make cars now without horses. Just because long ago we were used to having a horses ass in front of us, should we make cars to exactly simulate that too? No.

Cut and paste. Very simple. Removed from one place and put in another. Done.

Not simple. It doesn't at all address what happens when you try to paste someplace other than finder, or any of the other user interface issues.

But, the good news is Steve Jobs doesn't take his user interface advice from you, so I don't have to worry about 10.x coming out with windows-like interface nonsense.

 

[contoursvt]

It is very simple. You're not a developer. Those issues of "what if you try adn paste something other than finder" are not your concern. They are the concern of the developers to sort out. Very simply, if the function is not supported, then it just wont do it. Hows that for simplicity. I'm sure apple developers can figure out how to limit cut and paste of file operation to read and write media storage such as hard drives and flash drives.

90% of the planet uses windows in one shape or form and if cut and paste was such a complicated issue, they'd be all running around going "OMG how does this work??!!!" Fact it they dont. Also if you have a windows box somewhere close to you, please demonstrate any cut and paste flaws or bugs for us... Thanks.

Not simple. It doesn't at all address what happens when you try to paste someplace other than finder, or any of the other user interface issues.

But, the good news is Steve Jobs doesn't take his user interface advice from you, so I don't have to worry about 10.x coming out with windows-like interface nonsense.

 

[cmaier]

It is very simple. You're not a developer. Those issues of "what if you try adn paste something other than finder" are not your concern. They are the concern of the developers to sort out. Very simply, if the function is not supported, then it just wont do it. Hows that for simplicity. I'm sure apple developers can figure out how to limit cut and paste of file operation to read and write media storage such as hard drives and flash drives.

90% of the planet uses windows in one shape or form and if cut and paste was such a complicated issue, they'd be all running around going "OMG how does this work??!!!" Fact it they dont. Also if you have a windows box somewhere close to you, please demonstrate any cut and paste flaws or bugs for us... Thanks.

1) Yes, I am a developer.
2) This is not a "developer" issue. It's a designer issue. It isn't an issue of the code figuring out not to paste a file into a Word document. It is an issue of subjecting the user to such a messed up paradigm. Consider the following situation:

A) I copy text using cmd-C in a textedit document.
B) I copy a file using cmd-C in a finder window (by the way, did I "copy" the file, or did I copy the filename? What if I wanted to copy the filename and not the file?)
C) I hit cmd-V in a textedit document.

What happens? What does the user expect to happen? I'm not worried about the code knowing what to do; I'm worried about subjecting users to an inconsistent paradigm. And just because you understand how it will work doesn't mean the vast majority of computer users will.

Let's change (C). What if I cmd-V into a ftp program? Now what happens?

It's inconsistent and fraught with opportunities for confusion.