Apollo Now Offers Option to Decline Refund Ahead of June 30 Shutdown

[motorazr]

What intellectual property? The users provide the content.

Exactly. Reddit profits of the intellectual property of all users.

This app provided a better window and easier way to interact with the platform, essentially generating more content to profit from or train Ai or whatever nowadays.

Can’t imagine Reddit won’t notice it gone, but alas, the next platform may emerge from the ashes.

 

[noiramnesiac]

This dev is such a jackass and a liar. There have been muktiple posts from him where he posts rants several pages long over things that are NOT even close to true. He constantly tries to make himself some huge victim. One post headline was something completely untrue and when someone actually read the source and commented on it he said he “read between the lines.” Still the thread was 99% people getting outraged over his like that wasn’t even that bad.
The guy made a lot of money off Reddit while paying nothing and now he’s throwing a temper tantrum because it’s coming to an end. It’s not great, but it’s not horrible or unexpected and it’s kind of reddit‘s fault they hadn’t addressed this sooner for their own sake. Businesses and website HAVE to make money to survive and to exist People will vomit up the response that the contexnt comes from users or whatever, but so does all of the internet, so does Google, SO DOES THIS WEBSITE. cut out the ad revenue and there is no site. And the people who say Reddit doesn’t make content are somehow okay with mods removing or deleting content that isn’t theirs. That’s the worst and most hypocritical part of this.

 

[Krizoitz]

Developer speaking for ops guys about the cost of infra? Nice one.

I don’t need to be an ops person to have seen the budget involved…

Reddit is greedy but also this is a business that wants to monetize its product? Nothing new.

So? It’s still ****** and wrong.

 

[Krizoitz]

The API is not intended for stuff like Apollo.

And yes, Apollo was leeching, making money of an other company while Reddit has to pay for all the server costs of 900.000 users everyday of which Reddit receives no dime, only a huge bill that Reddit has to pay for Apollo.

And it is no surprise that this same Apollo wants its users to pay his bills for a refund.

Um, yes the API was exactly intended for stuff like Apollo. If it wasn’t Reddit wouldn’t have updated it, supported it, and advertised it as such for years.

And no Apollo was not leeching. They used the API exactly as advertised in a way that was totally compliant with the rules.

No one is arguing that Reddit can’t charge for API access. Lots of services do and app developers pay for it. The problem is Reddit promised one thing and then did something completely different. They said the rates would be at a reasonable level. They aren’t. They are orders of magnitude higher than other, similar types of service (like Imgur). Then when no one bought their lie they FINALLY admitted the truth. This was done to shut down 3rd party apps.

And no one is arguing Reddit doesn’t have the legal right to do that either. But doing it so suddenly is a scummy move because it leaves developers like this one, not to mention Reddits users and moderators, ie the people who ACTUALLY make Reddit valuable and useful, in the lurch.

Meanwhile you realize Apollo also has bills to pay right?

This would be like your boss coming to you after years of positive reviews and saying “Look, times are a little tough, we might need to make some small cuts to everyone’s pay to keep things going for awhile”. You’re a team player, you want the company to do well, you understand. It’s not ideal but you understand. You bought a house recently so you’ve got a new mortgage but you can make it work even if your pay goes down a little. Then your boss walks in a week later and just fires you. Turns out he just wanted to raise his own salary, the budget cuts were a lie he hoped you’d buy.

I’m willing to bet in that situation you wouldn’t just shrug your shoulders and say “Well I should have known he’d fire me without warning, that’s on me!”

 

[Krizoitz]

This dev is such a jackass and a liar. There have been muktiple posts from him where he posts rants several pages long over things that are NOT even close to true. He constantly tries to make himself some huge victim. One post headline was something completely untrue and when someone actually read the source and commented on it he said he “read between the lines.” Still the thread was 99% people getting outraged over his like that wasn’t even that bad.
The guy made a lot of money off Reddit while paying nothing and now he’s throwing a temper tantrum because it’s coming to an end. It’s not great, but it’s not horrible or unexpected and it’s kind of reddit‘s fault they hadn’t addressed this sooner for their own sake. Businesses and website HAVE to make money to survive and to exist People will vomit up the response that the contexnt comes from users or whatever, but so does all of the internet, so does Google, SO DOES THIS WEBSITE. cut out the ad revenue and there is no site. And the people who say Reddit doesn’t make content are somehow okay with mods removing or deleting content that isn’t theirs. That’s the worst and most hypocritical part of this.

Found the Reddit shill

 

[laptech]

People supporting or agreeing with reddit clearly have no idea how a CEO should behave in running a business and the only reason why businesses survive with a CEO behaving like that is because the business provides/offers something that users/customers really really want otherwise the business would be dead in the water.

 

[Krizoitz]

Can you blame Reddit for saying "yah umm.... you are profiting off our intellectual property, so um like we are stopping that". ? It is entirely legitimate stance & frankly every rationale person in this room would have done the same.

Um yes, yes I can because:
A ) Reddit profits of its user intellectual content

B ) Reddit was the one who provided an API and encouraged people to make apps using that API for YEARS. Apollo et. al. weren’t stealing. They weren’t breaking any of Reddit’s rules. They weren’t even opposed to the idea of paid API access. The issue is Reddit LIED to them about how much that would cost. Also they gave app makers nowhere near enough time to respond in a way that isn’t going to hurt users. On top of which they are charging exorbitant amounts nowhere close to what other services charge.

C ) Not to mention the fact Reddit has, in many ways, depended on those Apps since they are HEAVILY used by the completely unpaid moderators who keep Reddit functioning to begin with. You want to talk about leeching off other people’s work, that’s where you should start.

D ) When it’s users and moderators (aka the people who generate the IP and do most of the work for Reddit) protested, Reddit went straight gestapo on them and said “back down or we will take your subreddits and accounts from you”.

Reddit is wrong in so many ways here. There is no good faith argument in their defense. None.

 

[ninethirty]

Um, yes the API was exactly intended for stuff like Apollo. If it wasn’t Reddit wouldn’t have updated it, supported it, and advertised it as such for years.

And no Apollo was not leeching. They used the API exactly as advertised in a way that was totally compliant with the rules.

No one is arguing that Reddit can’t charge for API access. Lots of services do and app developers pay for it. The problem is Reddit promised one thing and then did something completely different. They said the rates would be at a reasonable level. They aren’t. They are orders of magnitude higher than other, similar types of service (like Imgur). Then when no one bought their lie they FINALLY admitted the truth. This was done to shut down 3rd party apps.

And no one is arguing Reddit doesn’t have the legal right to do that either. But doing it so suddenly is a scummy move because it leaves developers like this one, not to mention Reddits users and moderators, ie the people who ACTUALLY make Reddit valuable and useful, in the lurch.

Meanwhile you realize Apollo also has bills to pay right?

This would be like your boss coming to you after years of positive reviews and saying “Look, times are a little tough, we might need to make some small cuts to everyone’s pay to keep things going for awhile”. You’re a team player, you want the company to do well, you understand. It’s not ideal but you understand. You bought a house recently so you’ve got a new mortgage but you can make it work even if your pay goes down a little. Then your boss walks in a week later and just fires you. Turns out he just wanted to raise his own salary, the budget cuts were a lie he hoped you’d buy.

I’m willing to bet in that situation you wouldn’t just shrug your shoulders and say “Well I should have known he’d fire me without warning, that’s on me!”

The Imgur argument is getting old, fast. Facebook, Twitter, etc, all charge about what Reddit is going to be charging. The rates are reasonable. Selig decided to throw in the towel because now he'd have costs and HAVE to make money, as opposed to everything being pure profit like before.

It is absolutely mind blowing that people are protesting on behalf of a millionaire who made his millions on the backs of others.

 

[Zest28]

Um, yes the API was exactly intended for stuff like Apollo. If it wasn’t Reddit wouldn’t have updated it, supported it, and advertised it as such for years.

And no Apollo was not leeching. They used the API exactly as advertised in a way that was totally compliant with the rules.

No one is arguing that Reddit can’t charge for API access. Lots of services do and app developers pay for it. The problem is Reddit promised one thing and then did something completely different. They said the rates would be at a reasonable level. They aren’t. They are orders of magnitude higher than other, similar types of service (like Imgur). Then when no one bought their lie they FINALLY admitted the truth. This was done to shut down 3rd party apps.

And no one is arguing Reddit doesn’t have the legal right to do that either. But doing it so suddenly is a scummy move because it leaves developers like this one, not to mention Reddits users and moderators, ie the people who ACTUALLY make Reddit valuable and useful, in the lurch.

Meanwhile you realize Apollo also has bills to pay right?

This would be like your boss coming to you after years of positive reviews and saying “Look, times are a little tough, we might need to make some small cuts to everyone’s pay to keep things going for awhile”. You’re a team player, you want the company to do well, you understand. It’s not ideal but you understand. You bought a house recently so you’ve got a new mortgage but you can make it work even if your pay goes down a little. Then your boss walks in a week later and just fires you. Turns out he just wanted to raise his own salary, the budget cuts were a lie he hoped you’d buy.

I’m willing to bet in that situation you wouldn’t just shrug your shoulders and say “Well I should have known he’d fire me without warning, that’s on me!”

Reddit said it themselves that the API was not intended for apps like Apollo.

And yes, they were leeching making millions of an other company for free while letting the costs get paid by that other company too.

And what exactly did Reddit promise and not deliver? Thus far, Reddit is much cheaper than Twitter so the market price is reasonable. In the end, the market is always right.

 

[ninethirty]

Um yes, yes I can because:
A ) Reddit profits of its user intellectual content

B ) Reddit was the one who provided an API and encouraged people to make apps using that API for YEARS. Apollo et. al. weren’t stealing. They weren’t breaking any of Reddit’s rules. They weren’t even opposed to the idea of paid API access. The issue is Reddit LIED to them about how much that would cost. Also they gave app makers nowhere near enough time to respond in a way that isn’t going to hurt users. On top of which they are charging exorbitant amounts nowhere close to what other services charge.

C ) Not to mention the fact Reddit has, in many ways, depended on those Apps since they are HEAVILY used by the completely unpaid moderators who keep Reddit functioning to begin with. You want to talk about leeching off other people’s work, that’s where you should start.

D ) When it’s users and moderators (aka the people who generate the IP and do most of the work for Reddit) protested, Reddit went straight gestapo on them and said “back down or we will take your subreddits and accounts from you”.

Reddit is wrong in so many ways here. There is no good faith argument in their defense. None.

A) And? So does Facebook, Twitter, etc. It's a platform, that they built. The agreement between reddit and users is, "hey, here's this platform you can use for free, but we've gotta get something out of this also."

B) Point out how reddit "LIED." Reddit said the pricing would be reasonable, Selig disagrees. That's not a lie, that's a disagreement. The reality is, reddit's API pricing is in line with other major social media companies not named Imgur.

C) I don't even know what to say to this. If Reddit depended on those apps, they either would have bought Apollo, or left things the same. You might think reddit depends on that app, but reddit disagrees.

D) Reddit asked moderators to follow the rules they agreed to follow. The hyperbole is fun and all, but entirely unnecessary.

Reddit isn't wrong at all.

 

[jmho]

The Imgur argument is getting old, fast. Facebook, Twitter, etc, all charge about what Reddit is going to be charging. The rates are reasonable. Selig decided to throw in the towel because now he'd have costs and HAVE to make money, as opposed to everything being pure profit like before.

It is absolutely mind blowing that people are protesting on behalf of a millionaire who made his millions on the backs of others.

I don’t believe you’re a real person.

So the dev is a millionaire who is raking in millions and is quitting because, what, he suddenly hates money?

How does that make any logical sense?

There are thousands of ways he could financially benefit from this situation “giving up and voluntarily refunding everyone’s money” is not one of them.

 

[SexExpert]

The Imgur argument is getting old, fast. Facebook, Twitter, etc, all charge about what Reddit is going to be charging.

No, they dont, not even close in some cases.

The rates are reasonable.

Not according to anyone who uses their API.

Selig decided to throw in the towel because now he'd have costs and HAVE to make money, as opposed to everything being pure profit like before.

So you're saying he decided to stop making any money at all because he'd be making slightly less? That doesn't make any sense.

He actually threw in the towel because (1) he didnt feel he had enough time to make the nescessary changes and (2) he didn't want to give into Reddit's extortionate pricing.

Good on him for having a back bone, unlike some people here.

It is absolutely mind blowing that people are protesting on behalf of a millionaire who made his millions on the backs of others.

As opposed to protesting on behalf of a company worth billions?

My dude you're putting yourself through some incredible mental gymnastics to avoid admitting you got this one wrong. It's ok, it happens.

I’ve made more than Selig and in less time.

Sure, I believe you.

 

[RealMonster]

Well then if it is so easy why not start your own competitor to reddit?

Of all the incredibly bad takes you've posted in this conversation, I think this one has to be the worst.

Nobody said it was easy, but it is 100% factual that the content is generated by the users. Reddit's intellectual property is the infrastructure of the site, not the content.

 

[2540497]

Call me unsympathetic but this pity party is pathetic. "The refund is out of pocket", is actually a massive lie. A refund is simply returning funds you collected, I do not care that you spent the money. Personally I call it a big scam taking advantage of the "hate on reddit policy" and "kindness of people". Do not fall for it folks, actively tell this developer to go F himself for even asking. Give your money to a real charity, you owe this stranger nothing. He entered into a business and knew the risks getting in! He also likely enjoyed some very nice reward while the going was good, pathetic is my polite word, don't reward stupid.

Completely agree with every word you said, couldn’t have put it better myself.

 

[RealMonster]

"free labour" MY LORD. The users voluntarily posting their content, and the moderators volunteering their time moderating is not free labour. Nobody was forced to do anything. You are clearly stretching the truth to protect your whiny narrative. Business is business, the consumer votes, Reddit did nothing wrong.

It's labour, and it's not being paid for. It's the very definition of 'free labour'. If those things weren't done, there would be no value.

Like, labour is a value-generating activity. Just because something is your hobby doesn't mean it's not also labour. Moderation is something that other sites (Facebook, Twitter) PAY people to do. Reddit gets it for free. By all accounts, it's not always a very enjoyable job.

There is a bit of give-and-take, to be sure--if I post on Reddit, I get some value out of it, whether I'm asking a question or answering it. But in aggregate, we are doing labour for Reddit if our writing has any value, which apparently it does.

You're pretty condescending to other people considering how poorly you seem to understand the situation.

 

[thenahon]

As the developer, I just want to say, I don't think you're a bad person or anything if you take the refund, but I do really appreciate the folks who are kind in declining it.

For reference, 30 days ago Reddit was still being very promising with their claims for the API pricing to be equitable and based in reality, and 4 months before that Reddit told me they had no plans to change the API this year, so this level of refund really hit me out of nowhere.

It's a gut punch, and I loved building Apollo, but the kindness and support people have shown over the last few weeks really means a lot in making this easier to swallow, so I genuinely really do appreciate those folks considering declining the refund.

I'm not even seeing an option to decline the refund, but if it shows up I will be declining! Thank you dude!

 

[ninethirty]

I don’t believe you’re a real person.

So the dev is a millionaire who is raking in millions and is quitting because, what, he suddenly hates money?

How does that make any logical sense?

There are thousands of ways he could financially benefit from this situation “giving up and voluntarily refunding everyone’s money” is not one of them.

No, it's because things were about to get hard. Previously it was easy, access to reddit's API was free, and he'd hide ads. You could use Apollo for free, or you could pay a flat fee and it went directly to him.

Now, with reddit's API pricing, he can't just charge a one size fits all price, because it varies from user to user, based on how many API calls they're making. Billing users at the end of the month probably isn't a great option here, so he'd have to estimate monthly costs based on paying users, average the cost out, markup for himself, and then set high prices of things. We'd see really fast how much people really love Apollo.

He threw in towel.

 

[Treq]

"free labour" MY LORD. The users voluntarily posting their content, and the moderators volunteering their time moderating is not free labour. Nobody was forced to do anything. You are clearly stretching the truth to protect your whiny narrative. Business is business, the consumer votes, Reddit did nothing wrong.

Free labor is the correct term. Forcing someone to do labor for no pay would be slave labor. Doing it without being forced is free labor and redit did profit from that free labor.

 

[wigby]

That does not change the reality of business. He got his reward while the going was good, now it is time to find something else. This is life. Why would anyone give even a second of pity for this person? I do not care "how good his app was", that is irrelevant. He took on a business risk, the risk did not work in his favor, now he lives with consequences. End of story. Dont drag yourself down with him.

He is moving on. But in business (like in life) you can choose the way you move on. Asking for a headcount of loyal customers while you're leaving isn't some form of extortion or pity. Business is about forming relationships with vendors, customers and partners you trust, not just money. Business is also a two way street. Reddit is going public and burning bridges left and right to get there. They have already felt a mild backlash but the bigger one is yet to come when they are at the mercy of hothead shareholders that think like you.

 

[ninethirty]

No, they dont, not even close in some cases.


Not according to anyone who uses their API.


So you're saying he decided to stop making any money at all because he'd be making slightly less? That doesn't make any sense.

He actually threw in the towel because (1) he didnt feel he had enough time to make the nescessary changes and (2) he didn't want to give into Reddit's extortionate pricing.

Good on him for having a back bone, unlike some people here.


As opposed to protesting on behalf of a company worth billions?

My dude you're putting yourself through some incredible mental gymnastics to avoid admitting you got this one wrong. It's ok, it happens.


Sure, I believe you.

I never said slightly less, but he would make less. In order to cover his costs and be profitable his live would get a whole lot more complicated for sure, but hey, that's what happens when you build your own business, as opposed to making money off of someone else's rather easily.

It doesn't take a genius to see why he's noping out. He struck oil, but the well is dry.

 

[ninethirty]

He is moving on. But in business (like in life) you can choose the way you move on. Asking for a headcount of loyal customers while you're leaving isn't some form of extortion or pity. Business is about forming relationships with vendors, customers and partners you trust, not just money. Business is also a two way street. Reddit is going public and burning bridges left and right to get there. They have already felt a mild backlash but the bigger one is yet to come when they are at the mercy of hothead shareholders that think like you.

Translation: "Hey guys, my gravy train is gone and I'd really like it if you could please help poor old millionaire me here by declining a refund for the thing you paid for. When I'm laying on a beach somewhere while you're slaving away, I'll think of you and the relationship we formed."

 

[Krizoitz]

It is absolutely mind blowing that people are protesting on behalf of a millionaire who made his millions on the backs of others.

I agree, I can’t believe anyone is defending the Reddit CEO either.

 

[HornOfAbraxas]

Call me unsympathetic but this pity party is pathetic. "The refund is out of pocket", is actually a massive lie. A refund is simply returning funds you collected, I do not care that you spent the money. Personally I call it a big scam taking advantage of the "hate on reddit policy" and "kindness of people". Do not fall for it folks, actively tell this developer to go F himself for even asking. Give your money to a real charity, you owe this stranger nothing. He entered into a business and knew the risks getting in! He also likely enjoyed some very nice reward while the going was good, pathetic is my polite word, don't reward stupid.

I don't think I've ever cared this much about anything, let alone somebody else's third party app for a website allowing the option for partial refunds for a service they paid for that they will no longer receive. I mean what a strange hill to die on. I worry for your blood pressure when you encounter actually serious issues in your life.

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

which he's been profiting off of the hard work Reddit put in without paying a dime to Reddit.

perhaps there should be a button instead of cancelling a refund, it should be donated to reddit.

They were giving the API for free, don’t feel sorry for Reddit.

 

[trusso]

Many apps and services have come and gone over the years, and while I've sympathized with those affected, it's never inconvenienced me much since I didn't use them. Unfortunately, Apollo is/was far and away the best way to engage on Reddit, and an app I used very often. The first party app (which I have used on occasion) sucks, and the website (both old and new versions) is either ugly or slow & clunky. We need more apps like Apollo and more developers like Christian. It's a damn shame it has to end like this.