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Not going to change my opinion that greedy is a weasel word with purely a baised definition.

There are broad similarities over industries about how marketing consumer goods are done.

All of this will be decided in due time. And yes, producing products that people want to buy for decades does give one a hefty war chest.
Again not biased I deal in facts not feels
It’s factual to say apple are a greedy company as evidenced by the Tim Cook era numbers don’t lie.

Again don’t compare apple to a games console maker and when its pointed out use whataboutery by mentioning other industries because that shows your losing the discussion

As Francis Albert once sang and now the end
Is near for the iOS App Store where it be commissions or side loading or 3rd party app stores it’s only a matter of time it doesn’t matter if it’s epic or Spotify or governments one bit at a time Apple’s rules and regulations are getting torn down because it’s getting brought into the open.
 
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Again not biased I deal in facts not feels
It’s factual to say apple are a greedy company as evidenced by the Tim Cook era numbers don’t lie.
I guess that's where our disagreement is. Greedy an overprices are completely subjective and you are dealing with opinions and not facts. You're in the valley of wrong my friend.
Again don’t compare apple to a games console maker and when its pointed out use whataboutery by mentioning other industries because that shows your losing the discussion
The business models are very similar, in fact, too similar.
As Francis Albert once sang and now the end
Is near for the iOS App Store where it be commissions or side loading or 3rd party app stores it’s only a matter of time it doesn’t matter if it’s epic or Spotify or governments one bit at a time Apple’s rules and regulations are getting torn down because it’s getting brought into the open.
I agree. All of this to be decided in the future and we will have to wait for the denouement to see what happens. Nobody here is "Carnac"
 
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Eu can’t make any regulation they want. The memberstate still hold most responsibility
And the DMA is much more expensive
1: that is just about unimaginable more complicated to do, and they don’t want it to be for everyone that are impactful for. Hence why Xbox, PlayStation or Nintendo isn’t covered because they don’t have enough business partners that are involved.
2&3: that’s already part of it and existing IP law.

But I agree the DMA could have been more restrictive in some respects. Such as stating that undertakers aught to have the ability to install software without needing permission from the provider of the hardware/os and engage in free contract engagement with any middleman.

Hence why Apple is saying a 15-30% fee is fair and reasonable. Or the CTf they had before was also fair and reasonable according to them.

And EU doesn’t have the civil servants to go after everyone. It’s not th US. At least 600.000 work for the U.S. federal government (excluding postal and military) while perhaps 50-100.000 work for EU)
Not sure if it is the Netherlands or Denmark, but one of them is suing Sony over their digital stores game cost. Saying that their citizens have been unfairly charged more money than they should have been, because the only digital store on PlayStation is the PlayStation store.

So no, my 1 isn’t impossible, the issue is that Sony, and Nintendo aren’t worth it money wise. Also as both companies are Japanese, and I don’t think the EU and Japan have much in the way of business/trade, going after Sony and Nintendo wouldn’t mean much in the political realm.
 
I guess that's where our disagreement is. Greedy an overprices are completely subjective and you are dealing with opinions and not facts. You're in the valley of wrong my friend.

The business models are very similar, in fact, too similar.

I agree. All of this to be decided in the future and we will have to wait for the denouement to see what happens. Nobody here is "Carnac"
Having a 28% market share in your line of work but making the most profit is not an opinion it’s a fact that makes you greedy
Unless apple don’t have a 28% market share & make the most money because the last time I checked they did.

If apple’s business model is the same as the car industry then it’s not the same as the console industry then is it
 
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Having a 28% market share in your line of work but making the most profit is not an opinion it’s a fact that makes you greedy
No it makes you good at your job and selling popular merchandise that people want to buy. As opposed to your neighbor with a bigger market share but not able to move profitable merchandise the same way.
Unless apple don’t have a 28% market share & make the most money because the last time I checked they did.
seems people can’t wait justifying a false criticism of apple.
If apple’s business model is the same as the car industry then it’s not the same as the console industry then is it
The marketing model that is.
 
Having a 28% market share in your line of work but making the most profit is not an opinion it’s a fact that makes you greedy
Unless apple don’t have a 28% market share & make the most money because the last time I checked they did.

If apple’s business model is the same as the car industry then it’s not the same as the console industry then is it
Are you arguing for socialism, because isn’t that the point of free-market capitalism? The correct price to charge is the highest price the market will bear. Making products that people like so much that you are very profitable is what success looks like!
 
Having a 28% market share in your line of work but making the most profit is not an opinion it’s a fact that makes you greedy
Unless apple don’t have a 28% market share & make the most money because the last time I checked they did.

If apple’s business model is the same as the car industry then it’s not the same as the console industry then is it
Having 28% market share and selling more apps means your customers trust you and the environment more than the competing product.

Personally I have had Apple and Android devices and installed apps.

I am happy that Apple stores my credit details.
I used store bought gift cards when I want an Android app.

The difference in open and closed environments makes me do this.
 
Having 28% market share and selling more apps means your customers trust you and the environment more than the competing product.

Personally I have had Apple and Android devices and installed apps.

I am happy that Apple stores my credit details.
I used store bought gift cards when I want an Android app.

The difference in open and closed environments makes me do this.
Context having only 28% in your field of work but making the most profit is greed that’s why in relation to this case about epic and the commission when comparing it to console makers like Nintendo that is one of the points in this case
 
Are you arguing for socialism, because isn’t that the point of free-market capitalism? The correct price to charge is the highest price the market will bear. Making products that people like so much that you are very profitable is what success looks like!
No don’t compare your company to a console maker by saying it’s the same & when it’s pointed out that it’s not on various different levels then apple & certain fans use whataboutery by bringing other industries into to say look they do that
This is classic when apple get challenged on anything they use whataboutery to try & get out of everything.
 
No don’t compare your company to a console maker by saying it’s the same & when it’s pointed out that it’s not on various different levels then apple & certain fans use whataboutery by bringing other industries into to say look they do that
This is classic when apple get challenged on anything they use whataboutery to try & get out of everything.
I'm not touching the 'can the console market be used as a comparison' argument. I'm too tired to give it the consideration I need to in order to decide one way or the other. I'm addressing your assertion that Apple, a company in a capitalistic environment, is greedy because it is profitable. You're arguing (insofar as I can tell) that the market should be heavily regulated in order to force Apple to change its behaviour, so I'm wondering if you're arguing for socialism.
 
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I'm not touching the 'can the console market be used as a comparison' argument. I'm too tired to give it the consideration I need to in order to decide one way or the other. I'm addressing your assertion that Apple, a company in a capitalistic environment, is greedy because it is profitable. You're arguing (insofar as I can tell) that the market should be heavily regulated in order to force Apple to change its behaviour, so I'm wondering if you're arguing for socialism.
No I’m not
The argument put forward by apple & certain fans of the company is this the console makers do it so why is it any different
Yet when it’s pointed out the differences that it’s not the same the apple argument falls apart & suddenly apple & said fans use whataboutery by bringing other industries into it when apple as a company like they always do is use whataboutery so they don’t get pinned down
 
Again just because you spend money at the start to get it up in running is very different to now customers are locked in to the generic store as they have no competition

I said "Apple risked billions in R&D and Epic just wants to take what Apple built and profit.". I made no comment on targeting then compared to now.

Competition is Android.
 
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I said "Apple risked billions in R&D and Epic just wants to take what Apple built and profit.". I made no comment on targeting then compared to now.

Competition is Android.
The competition is android only when it suits apple just like this oh yeah we are the same as the console makers like Nintendo and PlayStation but when it’s pointed out apple aren’t then it’s no we are like the car industry its very funny how when a company or government try and pin this company down it’s oh we are not this but we are this and use whataboutery to slither there way out of any corner
 
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1. Opting to expand their market. Their market. Expanding is a risk. It costs money, time, effort, resources to expand. There is the very real possibly they could have failed, and lost out to this market. Many were saying it would fail.

You can try and push for such a right. However, if you are not in control of the paint supply (in this example). There are companies that own a color for instance. Or own a patent on the chemicals that make up the paint. You may not have any right to any of that. It could have been sold to that car company as an exclusive. So neither would a 3rd party repair shop have access to it, without some kind of certification from them allowing them to work on it on their behalf. So while you "could" get it painted again by anyone. You "May" not be able to get the exact same paint color outside of the manufacture of the car. You bought what you bought. Not any-thing else. Do with it after what you will/can. But, the company is under no obligation to assist you outside of that or make it easy for you to do so. They have rights too.

Meaningless. It is a hack to get onto the iPhone. And Apple has every right to prohibit its use "BY" not allowing it to be able to hack its way on. You have every right to try to hack it on to YOUR phone. But, that is the limit for each party here. No different than saying Orange existed before iPhone 17. Why can't I have an orange phone before iPhone 17? Like Samsung BTS edition purple phone. Why can't I get that on an iPhone from Apple?

Proving the point we need not waste time with these rules to allow the 3rd party store. More importantly that Android already had/has the ability to let the end user have a 3rd party store. No need to force Apple to also have one.


It doesn't need the pressure. Only a small fraction of people "want" this just to tinker specifically ON an iPhone. Get a Droid. Have fun. And accept that Apple does NOT want to cater to that audience. That is not where they are focusing on. It is too small a market for them to even bother with, and have to work extra just to please. And, most likely fail at doing so.
1. And some things can’t be ”owned”. Example you can own whatever proprietary way you made the paint. But the paint itself is fairly free. Just as we use car examples, thers no part of the car that can’t be remanufactiree as an off label spare part without the logo. Or things are made FRAND compliant etc etc.

Because you bought what you bought the seller sold what they sold as a package Deal. And sometimes when you’re large enough with enough market impact you have to change your rules to prevent your own selfpreference harming the market.

Apple has a massive market share of about 30%~ Apple doesn’t need to cater, but in this regard stop getting in the way. Effectively make either self signed apps functional or allow unsigned apps do their thing.

And no Apple absolutely need the pressure because they have close to zero competition to make their store experience better for anyone as long as the phone itself is good enough it’s a service you have to use.
2.

If it does work out, they will eventually raise the price point. 1 million will go down to half a million. Royalties will go up from 5-10% or whatever in-between. And if they fail, Steam prices will go up. And on and on.

Perhaps. If it proves to be a big enough issue for them. They will. If not, they will move on to other things.

There is aways a markup on almost everything we buy. 27% may still be lower than what it would have been in a physical store. The MSRP or retail price could still be the same as a store as well. Since none of us are working for them to know the input costs, profit margins, taxes, tariffs, etc. Knowing it "is" 27% more than it otherwise would be is misleading. Not to mention IAP is generally something they created already being resold a million times over.


Qualcomm charges a lot, based on price of the device. And they own the patents for the tech that makes the cellular modem work. Bravo for them. Apple has to pay them. But, that cost is HIGH. And they fought over the cost with them. AND managed to come to an agreement (2 years or so later). HOLY CRAP! They didn't publicly shame or take out ads?? What in the world??? And now, they have an in-house modem chip based on tech they purchased from intel. So at some point, they will not have to pay Qualcomm anything. Because they will own their own modem. Not like Apple is going to sell its modem design to 3rd parties to compete against Qualcomm, just like they are not going to sell M chips to 3rd parties. They made it for themselves. I personally had no issue with EPIC going to court with Apple over the 30% or anything else they felt was "wrong". But they did it in public, and broke OUR access to playing the games or having EPIC anything going forward. THAT is the issue. I still got to make phone calls with my iPhone during the Qualcomm dispute.

30% is too much for you. The value is whatever you perceive it to be. We have different values. I don't want to open up the platform, as I chose this platform as it is. If you want it open, pick a platform that is more open. We both get what we want. Closer to what we both want rather.


This isn't Apple or Googles problem to solve. Neither can please everyone.

Again, nothing is perfect. And you should care how they make their money, since this whole conversation is about MONEY. Who/m charges what and if that is too much or not enough. How fair it is to charge what is being charged, and or if there should be a charge at all. Facebook, and Google can offer a platitude of services for free, but those services aren't really free and they have found a way to make a good bit of coin without directly charging you for it. Best of luck to you to MacGyver your way around that. I truly hope you succeed. Just note that if enough of us figured out a way to do the same. Then we should expect Google and Facebook to go away at some point for not making any money.


If you built the device. But, you didn't. You bought the device. That device is yours to do with as you see fit. It gives you nothing more than that right to it. And it also works for Apple, they don't have to do anything for you other than support the device as they shipped it to you. You have no right to make another company make that same device work exactly how you want it to, when you want it to. They built it the way they wanted to. You decide if you like it enough to purchase it. That's it.
2. Steam has done close to nothing for the last 20~ years for their fees because the service has improved and reflected it to stay dominant. Epic have had their Unreal engine royalty for decades as well. While iOS AppStore has largely stagnated.

And no the 27% cost increase is above the price they have online through their own platform. Hence why they didn’t want IAP. And we know this costs because we can compare their statements and their price difference. Apple forced Protonmail to have a payed option or be removed. Developers don’t choose where their customers are located.

And no, Apple didn’t manage to get to an agreement, they acted like a spoiled child and refused to continue to pay the deal when Qualcomm refused to renegotiate the terms. And the tried to bring them to court so they didn’t need to pay because it was unfair to them and tried to call it a monopoly and anti competitive. Yet they lost the case and the legal battle is still ongoing.

It is their business strategy. I picked Apple because they aren’t Google, yet slowly Apple is becoming more like Google in their business strategy in monetizing my data. Something I paid a premium for.

If a service is offered for free they aught give the option of targeted adds and non targeted adds without using my data without explicit consent. And I make policy work pushing this to be less plausible and harder.

Well right to repair and environmental policy can still enforce some design rules. So they can’t design something that is artificially constraint like inkjet cartridges. Hence why you can put in whatever cartridge you want. Same should be with most of the replacement parts like your screen, back glass, battery etc etc without any syncing chips.

3. The Mac Studio is 100 watt full tilt. So still 5x less power for what would most likely equal or better performance based on your existing system spec. Now you can't upgrade it in the traditional sense, so you still would most likely prefer the PC for that reason alone. But typically PC video cards need more than the 75 watts that come from the slot. Usually in the 100 - 500+ watt range alone. And Micro$oft will most likely force you to upgrade your CPU before 10 years is done. Building is definitely cheaper than buying from a vendor like Dell. But, everything has its pro-con's.


The history of Mac gaming is the games are generally never well optimized for the Mac as a platform. When you take into account say a console. All games on the console tend to run well enough to justify its existence on the console. For Mac, it tended to have limited hardware options. Which like a console, shouldn't be a limitation. But, it is on the Mac. Mainly because the dev didn't really optimize it as well as they could or should have. Games are an afterthought for Mac. Usually a game comes out a year or more later. Games that came out with a simultaneous release was rare and still needed a relatively new Mac to run well. As it is now with M chips. They are at minimum as good as a Nintendo Switch is at running any game. And the future M5 Pro or Max will easily handle all the games available for the Mac. But, that's the other problem. Just not that many. Heck even CyberPunk 2077 can run on an M chip. Can it run it as well as a 5090? No. But, it's not 5 times worse either.
3. My PC is 4~ year already with the 5600G, 16gb DDR4 Ram and rtx3080, so around when the M1 was released. So my system probably is about 50-100watt when I don’t do heavy loads, so it probably can’t compete with apples M chips in any meaningful way. Before that I had my 2012 retina MacBook Pro.

Only upgrade I have done is just sticking in 2TB extra NVME storage over my existing 1TB NVME. Hence why I was hoping for the Mac Pro was going to allow dedicated GPU upgrade for. I can’t imagine Microsoft forcing me to upgrade as unwound just stay on whatever software it supports and hope Linux or Apple hardware is suitable when that day comes.

I am genuinely excited about Apple M chips and other avenues they push hardware. But I don’t even think it’s fair to compare the M chips to a 5090 when we have the laptop versions or even the different 3060,4060,5060 or the 80s models. The M4 Max is worse than a 3080 desktop GPU, but equivalent to 4070 laptop version. Because the M4 max 40core is 5x worse than the 5090 chip

Apple for a long time just crippled themselves regarding gaming when they continued to be very behind the openGL standards and slow on driver support
4. This is the whole point. Might as well say. Xbox was designed for games, but is so much more now that we can't hold it to just gaming anymore...

Why does this matter? It's not exactly standard issue provided at birth.

Perfect

If you agree that Apple makes the device to a specification "they" came up with, and they should have the right to come up with whatever specifications they wish. So long as it doesn't harm the end user in some illegal way.
Apple also lets you do whatever you can do with your device. They just don't have to help you do it. So when you purchase the device. If you don't like what it does, how it does it or why it does it. And you have the means. You can do with it as you wish. You did buy the device.
4. Except the Xbox is exactly what it was designed for and have failed to become anything more than that despite Microsoft’s attempts. The smartphone is nolonger just a phone with some funny apps, it has become a fullfledged computer that we do everything with a tie in to the digital world. We do banking, government verification, ID, messaging, media consumption, online and offline shopping, wallet, smart home automation etc etc.

It matter in the same way electricity has become an important factor that we don’t allow utilities profiteering and interfering in services that depends on it. So Apple can control their store, but not alternative stores that wishes to be used by the user on the device.

Just how Nintendo can brick your device in the U.S. legally, but can’t do it in EU despite they want to do it.

Apparently the EU and other parts of the word think they are closing the can.
Well what cans of worms are there? Nobody think they are ”closing” it, but opening up more opportunities for the market and prevent undue rentseeking and limiting smaller entities innovation capabilities.
 
Not sure if it is the Netherlands or Denmark, but one of them is suing Sony over their digital stores game cost. Saying that their citizens have been unfairly charged more money than they should have been, because the only digital store on PlayStation is the PlayStation store.

So no, my 1 isn’t impossible, the issue is that Sony, and Nintendo aren’t worth it money wise. Also as both companies are Japanese, and I don’t think the EU and Japan have much in the way of business/trade, going after Sony and Nintendo wouldn’t mean much in the political realm.
Because there are legitimate reasons why not everything blankett should be covered without any room for nuance. As well as likelihood to mess with existing national laws and regulations.

Should a digital watch allow executables? Or powertool batteries that connects to the internet being tracked? Refrigerators and microwaves that shows some recipes should they also have the function to install software? How about your router? There’s millions of software deployed on hardware that can fall within the scope of ”capacity to search” the internet that lacks the software capability to even install software outside of perhaps updates. What if your phone doesn’t have the capability to search the internet untill you accept and install the browser executable and circumvent that capability?

Sony or Nintendo being worth the money has no bearing whatsoever. Microsoft is in the same manner completely ignored. Hence EU concentrates on anti competitive practices and the related issues that arise, and small firms largely sort it themselves.

Apple, Google, Microsoft, Meta etc as extremely large multinational companies are impacting the market and undertakings in very large ways that seem to behave like bottlenecks or even gatekeepers to the larger market.
 
The competition is android only when it suits apple just like this oh yeah we are the same as the console makers like Nintendo and PlayStation but when it’s pointed out apple aren’t then it’s no
I really don't know what argument you're making here.

It's always been competition as Android. When have I said Android is not competition?
 
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Context having only 28% in your field of work but making the most profit is greed that’s why in relation to this case about epic and the commission when comparing it to console makers like Nintendo that is one of the points in this case
greed is not illegal.
customers would not be buying Apple products or Services if they didnt value them.
just because your values are different to theirs does not warrant the words you used.
 
Let’s start with Nintendo’s 30% and the lack of sideloading on their platform. If there is a way for developers to sidestep the commission they need to pay the platform, I am all ears.
They're not Apple, so it's ok.

Context having only 28% in your field of work but making the most profit is greed [snip]
Having only 28% in your field of work but making the most profit is good capitalism. Or is capitalism going out of fashion? Who sets the limit on profitability? The government? How much government intervention is required before it tips over into either socialism or fascism?
 
They're not Apple, so it's ok.


Having only 28% in your field of work but making the most profit is good capitalism. Or is capitalism going out of fashion? Who sets the limit on profitability? The government? How much government intervention is required before it tips over into either socialism or fascism?
Again don’t say that apple are the same as console makers because they are not
When a console maker releases a generation like the switch it’s on the market from 2018 to 2025 and money made is then reinvested to improve the games industry as a consequence of that where as apple and certain supporters claim that apple are the same as console makers but apple as a company don’t do any of that they use whataboutery like oh we are the same as the games industry but when it’s pointed out it’s different suddenly it’s oh we the same as the car industry and now it’s all about capitalism the Apple strategy use whataboutery
 
greed is not illegal.
customers would not be buying Apple products or Services if they didnt value them.
just because your values are different to theirs does not warrant the words you used.
Don’t compare yourself to console makers as a company to justify your actions and then when it’s pointed out you’re not and you’re greedy in comparison to these console makers on various different levels which is the point of this 30% commission in relation to this case don’t use whataboutery
 
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I really don't know what argument you're making here.

It's always been competition as Android. When have I said Android is not competition?
Because this case is about 30% commission on fees with epic and Apple’s & certain FANS of there’s say they are the same as the games industry to justify their claim but as is consistently pointed out they are not the same as the games industry on various different levels however apple & certain FANS use whataboutery to slither out of issue
It makes no difference to apple if a game is successful or not on the app store as any money made from that is not getting reinvested into the games industry to then improve it as they are not in that industry so it makes no odds to them as it’s a generic store and then compare and contrast the business model on different levels then it’s fundamentally different so don’t compare yourself to the console makers
 
Because this case is about 30% commission on fees with epic and Apple’s & certain FANS of there’s say they are the same as the games industry to justify their claim but as is consistently pointed out they are not the same as the games industry on various different levels however apple &

I have no idea what this is about.

I've always maintained PS5/Xbox/Nintendo are competitors just as much as iOS and Android are competitors.

I find it odd that Epic doesn't complain about Nintendo not allowing Epic Game Store on Switch but they complain Apple not allowing Epic Games Store on iOS.
 
I have no idea what this is about.

I've always maintained PS5/Xbox/Nintendo are competitors just as much as iOS and Android are competitors.

I find it odd that Epic doesn't complain about Nintendo not allowing Epic Game Store on Switch but they complain Apple not allowing Epic Games Store on iOS.
Again Apple’s justification for this commission of 30% on epic in relation to this case is they are the same as console makers and that is fine but they are not the same as console makers on various different levels meaning that as has been consistently pointed out that money made from the console makers are reinvested into the games industry to make it better where as it makes no odds to apple regarding this industry because it makes odds to them.
Epic have consistently said they do have an issue with the commission on console’s however the way the console business is setup then they understand because unlike apple and google when they bring out a console generation it’s out for about 6 to 7 years
Unlike apple & google every year that’s why it’s different because it makes no odds to them as they are guaranteed that income regardless
 
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Again Apple’s justification for this commission of 30% on epic in relation to this case is they are the same as console makers and that is fine but they are not the same as console makers on various different levels meaning that as has been consistently pointed out that money made from the console makers are reinvested into the games industry to make it better where as it makes no odds to apple regarding this industry because it makes odds to them.
Epic have consistently said they do have an issue with the commission on console’s however the way the console business is setup then they understand because unlike apple and google when they bring out a console generation it’s out for about 6 to 7 years
Unlike apple & google every year that’s why it’s different because it makes no odds to them as they are guaranteed that income regardless
Epic wants to pay $0
 
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