Apple Accuses Epic Games of Wanting a 'Free Ride'

[Ethosik]

Windows is bad in that it has a lot of issues caused by people loading software without checks.

Over decades I've spent countless hours reinstalling Windows and fixing issues with other people's computers because they clicked on a link, opened an email or installed something they thought was safe.

I dont get that on Mac.
And not ever on iOS devices.

Agreed. I think things should be more locked down. I had to deal with constant issues with my grand parents Windows system every month. It would be filled with malware. I finally got them a Windows S system which is more locked down and it helped drastically.

We should have a system so open where simply viewing a malformed PDF causes an entire company's business at risk. I had to deal with severely aggressive ransomware and data recovery from that from multiple clients. To one of the biggest YouTube channels also being impacted by this - Linus Tech Tips.

I have to deal with constant elderly people getting their Android phones infected.
I do not have to deal with any iOS infections.

 

[tucupeis]

It's not a "free ride" when they're paying the developer fees. If Apple wants to use this logic, then apps selling physical goods and services will need to be booted too but they're not doing that.

99$ developer fee seems enough compensation to you? or they pay more developer fees than the rest of developers?

 

[turbineseaplane]

99$ developer fee seems enough compensation to you? or they pay more developer fees than the rest of developers?

Apple is the one setting the developer fee! Lol

If they want more, they should charge more.

None of this justifies them getting a cut of all transactions

 

[Ethosik]

Apple is the one setting the developer fee! Lol

If they want more, they should charge more.

None of this justifies them getting a cut of all transactions

So okay, let's play this out. Sure, let's get rid of the 30% fee. Now you get nickel and dimed.

$99 certificate "Developer fee"
$200 listing on App Store + Promotions (could be multiple tiers)
$100 international payments
$100 for support costs
...

I pay multiple thousands a month in CDN costs alone for my items. 30% fee is well worth it to not have that constant cost to deal with.

Point is, this will change from $99 and 30% to maybe dozens of different "Tiers" and packages and line-items. It will be like your phone or cable bills.

And it will NOT be cheaper than it is now.

 

[Happy_John]

So okay, let's play this out. Sure, let's get rid of the 30% fee. Now you get nickel and dimed.

$99 certificate "Developer fee"
$200 listing on App Store + Promotions (could be multiple tiers)
$100 international payments
$100 for support costs
...

I pay multiple thousands a month in CDN costs alone for my items. 30% fee is well worth it to not have that constant cost to deal with.

Point is, this will change from $99 and 30% to maybe dozens of different "Tiers" and packages and line-items. It will be like your phone or cable bills.

And it will NOT be cheaper than it is now.

That’s a very valid point.

For the record, I do think that both Apple and Epic are only focused on revenue, all other arguments either side is making is simply to reach that end. Neither have the interests of the end-ussr at hear in this dispute.

But pragmatically, fir the end-user this is probably the important issue, and the one that’s bring ignore - not the cost in re venue to Apple and Epic, but the cost, both financial and in convenience/lack of transparency, to the end-user.

Both Apple and Epic have their ideal outcomes in this- but which is better ( or at least “less worse”) for the end-user.

NOTE: when I’m saying “end-user” of app stores, I mean both the consumers of the apps sold and the developer’s of the apps sold.

 

[Haiku_Oezu]

I really dislike Epic Games but how is Apple demanding 30% of purchases that don’t involve any kind of hosting on their part not “a free ride” as well?

 

[Bigbuddy1]

So okay, let's play this out. Sure, let's get rid of the 30% fee. Now you get nickel and dimed.

$99 certificate "Developer fee"
$200 listing on App Store + Promotions (could be multiple tiers)
$100 international payments
$100 for support costs
...

I pay multiple thousands a month in CDN costs alone for my items. 30% fee is well worth it to not have that constant cost to deal with.

Point is, this will change from $99 and 30% to maybe dozens of different "Tiers" and packages and line-items. It will be like your phone or cable bills.

And it will NOT be cheaper than it is now.

If you really want to get nickel and dimed
Then numbers don’t lie
If you want to compare and contrast then let’s break it down
Since you’re mentioning the consoles
Sony PlayStation 5 released 2020
You can’t purchase a PS6 the now in 2025
Apple released the iPhone 12 series in 2020
And yet we are now on the iPhone 17 series
Now let’s tackle the App Store it’s a generic store that doesn’t do anything to support the games industry as a whole with no reinvestment back into the games industry
That’s the difference

 

[apple2022]

I want the choice to be able to load whatever i want in my devices.

Either stop your hypocrisy (its for your safety, not for our profits) censorship or allow proper sideloading.

Again, I dont understand apple's customers that insist in having LESS options, which conveniently works in favor of Apples coffers and worse, they insist in taking that option away from the ones that do want that option.

If I paid over 1 thousand dollar for a device, I should be able to do with it whatever I like, not what Tim Apple and Jobs ghoul spirit decides.

Edit thanks for confirming my point.

Buy an Android. We don’t want windows store or play store slop.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

There’s a reason why many people prefer to game on consoles over PCs, despite the latter being more open and offering more versatility.

The reason is primarily price and availability. Can walk into Best Buy and pick up a Switch 2 with whatever bundled game for $500. A PC that provides similar graphics performance is much more expensive than that - plus you'd need a keyboard, mouse, monitor, etc. Even the Mac Mini (probably one of the best value computers one can buy rn) is more expensive, and that's before adding on the peripherals to make use of it.

Gamers don't buy consoles because they're locked down. They buy consoles because the financial barrier to entry is lower.

 

[Ethosik]

That’s a very valid point.

For the record, I do think that both Apple and Epic are only focused on revenue, all other arguments either side is making is simply to reach that end. Neither have the interests of the end-ussr at hear in this dispute.

But pragmatically, fir the end-user this is probably the important issue, and the one that’s bring ignore - not the cost in re venue to Apple and Epic, but the cost, both financial and in convenience/lack of transparency, to the end-user.

Both Apple and Epic have their ideal outcomes in this- but which is better ( or at least “less worse”) for the end-user.

NOTE: when I’m saying “end-user” of app stores, I mean both the consumers of the apps sold and the developer’s of the apps sold.

Of course Apple and Epic are out for the money. And Apple is fighting this as they legally should. They are legally required to appease the shareholders. And many shareholders, especially in big tech, want to see "graph go up infinitely". So Apple NEEDS to fight this until they are legally told "no". Otherwise, they can get hit from legal issues from their shareholders.

We are effectively in late stage capitalism and it is frustrating. We are seeing 5+ year old gaming consoles also increase in price, every subscription service increase, etc. "graph needs to go up"

 

[Ethosik]

If you really want to get nickel and dimed
Then numbers don’t lie
If you want to compare and contrast then let’s break it down
Since you’re mentioning the consoles
Sony PlayStation 5 released 2020
You can’t purchase a PS6 the now in 2025
Apple released the iPhone 12 series in 2020
And yet we are now on the iPhone 17 series
Now let’s tackle the App Store it’s a generic store that doesn’t do anything to support the games industry as a whole with no reinvestment back into the games industry
That’s the difference

But you can by the PS5 Pro, and their monthly subscription services. AND the PS5/Pro INCREASED in price.

 

[Ethosik]

The reason is primarily price and availability. Can walk into Best Buy and pick up a Switch 2 with whatever bundled game for $500. A PC that provides similar graphics performance is much more expensive than that - plus you'd need a keyboard, mouse, monitor, etc. Even the Mac Mini (probably one of the best value computers one can buy rn) is more expensive, and that's before adding on the peripherals to make use of it.

Gamers don't buy consoles because they're locked down. They buy consoles because the financial barrier to entry is lower.

Nope not always. When the game performs well on console, I usually prefer it. I enjoyed my 4k 60 fps experience with Persona 3 Reload on PS5. On my $3,500 gaming PC that game stuttered like crazy.

 

[Happy_John]

Of course Apple and Epic are out for the money. And Apple is fighting this as they legally should. They are legally required to appease the shareholders. And many shareholders, especially in big tech, want to see "graph go up infinitely". So Apple NEEDS to fight this until they are legally told "no". Otherwise, they can get hit from legal issues from their shareholders.

We are effectively in late stage capitalism and it is frustrating. We are seeing 5+ year old gaming consoles also increase in price, every subscription service increase, etc. "graph needs to go up".

Essentially, yes. This isn’t a case of „Apple good, Epic bad” or “Apple bad, Epic good”, it’s a case of Apple and Epic fighting over how to dividere the revenue pis between them, none of this is about lowering the oct ti end users of their services ( developers and consumers).

On the while „let capitalism” argument, there’s some very simple and obvious was the plebs (us end-users) can do to mitigate the negative effects of „number must go up”, and number one is stop buying into the stupidity of promoting and pushing users to upgrade every year and suggest that you must upgrade frequenctly to new hardware that is higher than your needs.

The vast majority of currents thread on this forum repeatedly enable „number go up”, which is a pity, because the real value of this forum are the less „newsworthy threads” that give. Lot of practical advice about how to keep older hardware going and reducie the need to buy more stuff.

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

Stores charge more than 30%. This is a deal. And it's a price that never went up. Which gave every developer access to billions of devices, worldwide. Instantly. There is a cost to doing this yourself, Apple was simply first to implement it and make it super easy to do so. Developers made billions. Apple never asked for more. The developers (EPIC in particular) "IS" asking for more. They want a free ride.

You're conflating markup profit with credit card transaction fees. Stores DO NOT charge 30% to run a CC charge.
In-app purchases have nothing to do with the App Store so why should Apple get 30%?

It's the same tiresome argument, over and over. Fact is, developers are FORCED to distribute their apps in Apple's App Store ONLY. Exclusively. Makers of food and goods can choose where to sell their stuff, so that is hardly a good argument.

Restaurants buy food from distributors, then turn around and make something and sell it to their customers at a profit as a meal. Should the restaurants pay the distributors 30% of the menu price when someone buys a meal at their restaurant?

 

[Bigbuddy1]

But you can by the PS5 Pro, and their monthly subscription services. AND the PS5/Pro INCREASED in price.

Again that’s not the same thing that’s just an updated ps5 not a new generation of console
That’s like having an iPhone 12 and then buying an iPhone 12 Pro Max then if that’s your point then that’s the same thing but we all know that it’s not.
Again you’re argument is after 5 years of the
PlayStation 5 being out there have put it up in price by £40 pounds but individuals like yourself have no issue consistently giving apple about $1000 dollars every year for a new device or every couple of years but yeah that’s the exact same as how consoles work.
That’s why it’s disingenuous to say it’s exactly the same business model & that the App Store is run the same way because it’s not on different levels

 

[harrisondavies]

I want the choice to be able to load whatever i want in my devices.

Either stop your hypocrisy (its for your safety, not for our profits) censorship or allow proper sideloading.

Again, I dont understand apple's customers that insist in having LESS options, which conveniently works in favor of Apples coffers and worse, they insist in taking that option away from the ones that do want that option.

If I paid over 1 thousand dollar for a device, I should be able to do with it whatever I like, not what Tim Apple and Jobs ghoul spirit decides.

Edit thanks for confirming my point.

The thing is, you knowingly bought into a walled garden. You could have went elsewhere and load whatever you want on the device. You can't and shouldn't have it both ways

 

[Ethosik]

Again that’s not the same thing that’s just an updated ps5 not a new generation of console
That’s like having an iPhone 12 and then buying an iPhone 12 Pro Max then if that’s your point then that’s the same thing but we all know that it’s not.
Again you’re argument is after 5 years of the
PlayStation 5 being out there have put it up in price by £40 pounds but individuals like yourself have no issue consistently giving apple about $1000 dollars every year for a new device or every couple of years but yeah that’s the exact same as how consoles work.
That’s why it’s disingenuous to say it’s exactly the same business model & that the App Store is run the same way because it’s not on different levels

So what do you want? A law stating that Apple cannot make a new device unless X years have passed?

Or are you saying because Apple releases a new product (which NOBODY is forced to buy) that they now are somehow prevented from a 30% cut?

Do you know how slippery slope EITHER scenario is?

 

[Bigbuddy1]

So what do you want? A law stating that Apple cannot make a new device unless X years have passed?

Or are you saying because Apple releases a new product (which NOBODY is forced to buy) that they now are somehow prevented from a 30% cut?

Do you know how slippery slope EITHER scenario is?

No you’re taking it that way
It’s about facts not whataboutery
You can’t say on one hand it’s the same regarding the App Store & consoles
Yet when it’s pointed out that it’s different on various factors you come back with feels
To justify Apple’s stance regarding this.

 

[Ethosik]

No you’re taking it that way
It’s about facts not whataboutery
You can’t say on one hand it’s the same regarding the App Store & consoles
Yet when it’s pointed out that it’s different on various factors you come back with feels
To justify Apple’s stance regarding this.

Your comparison does not make any sense. Because Apple releases an iPhone every year that means they should NOT have a 30% fee?

Our point is -- A store is a store

PS, Xbox, Nintendo -- take 30% cut on games on their store.
Apple - 30% cut

Device production and yearly releases has NO impact on this type of discussion.

 

[Artemis70]

I want the choice to be able to load whatever i want in my devices.

Either stop your hypocrisy (its for your safety, not for our profits) censorship or allow proper sideloading.

Again, I dont understand apple's customers that insist in having LESS options, which conveniently works in favor of Apples coffers and worse, they insist in taking that option away from the ones that do want that option.

...

I don't care about options to side load. There aren't that many apps where I see an improvement for me as a customer.

I do care a lot about equal opportunities for other app builders to integrate into the system. For example, sleep cycle apps don't have an equal opportunity to create automations as the Apple sleep app. Same is true for many other types of apps.

So, if you ask me, the most benefit is in forcing Apple to provide access to APIs.

 

[ThailandToo]

So okay, let's play this out. Sure, let's get rid of the 30% fee. Now you get nickel and dimed.

$99 certificate "Developer fee"
$200 listing on App Store + Promotions (could be multiple tiers)
$100 international payments
$100 for support costs
...

I pay multiple thousands a month in CDN costs alone for my items. 30% fee is well worth it to not have that constant cost to deal with.

Point is, this will change from $99 and 30% to maybe dozens of different "Tiers" and packages and line-items. It will be like your phone or cable bills.

And it will NOT be cheaper than it is now.

I think for some companies it could be way cheaper. But Apple needs developers to innovate so it can steal the ideas and build them into their own apps or the os itself then cancel the app from the store saying it’s an essential technology included from Apple.

The problem is the world’s most valuable company (much of the time) gets to make its own rules which isn’t fair. The wealth discrepancy has only increased and will continue as long as companies like Apple focus on shareholders and payoff politicians to allow the ecosystem to run without competition or choice for consumers.

 

[I7guy]

Epic wants such. Free ride they are currently taking 0% fee for any sale in their store bellow 1 million.

So greedy they allow the developers keep 100% of the revenue below 1 million a year

And yet they attempted to rip off Apple. So there ya go. 👍

 

[I7guy]

[..]

The problem is the world’s most valuable company (much of the time) gets to make its own rules which isn’t fair. […]

It’s entirely fair. Apple built this up to the juggernaut that it is today. Giving devs a way to showcase their talents and make a buck. Apple also made a buck when the devs made a buck.

Now x years later that the iOS App Store is a success let’s just take it away from Apple and distribute it like freeware.

 

[Bigbuddy1]

Your comparison does not make any sense. Because Apple releases an iPhone every year that means they should NOT have a 30% fee?

Our point is -- A store is a store

PS, Xbox, Nintendo -- take 30% cut on games on their store.
Apple - 30% cut

Device production and yearly releases has NO impact on this type of discussion.

Here’s why it doesn’t make sense to you
No a store is not a store in relation to your
Point regarding a 30% take
There is a fundamental difference between apple and a console maker
There are different factors behind it
Like this video
And the other examples I’ve given
Not just feels

 

[Bigbuddy1]

It’s entirely fair. Apple built this up to the juggernaut that it is today. Giving devs a way to showcase their talents and make a buck. Apple also made a buck when the devs made a buck.

Now x years later that the iOS App Store is a success let’s just take it away from Apple and distribute it like freeware.

Just because you start something that helps both parties to start with
doesn’t mean that any form of legitimate criticism is not justified or warranted in relation to Epic’s points in relation to the iOS App Store & apple