nuckinfutz said:
Ahh it wouldn't be MacRumors without completely baseless overboard speculation.
Please do some research before making yourself look like an ass in the future.
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Apple adopts Blu-ray Technology
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Ahh it wouldn't be MacRumors without completely baseless overboard speculation.
Please do some research before making yourself look like an ass in the future.
Get your facts straight before you open your mouth.nuckinfutz said:
From http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/blu-ray3.htm :
The design of the Blu-ray discs saves on manufacturing costs. Traditional DVDs are built by injection molding the two 0.6-mm discs between which the recording layer is sandwiched. The process must be done very carefully to prevent birefringence.
-The two discs are molded.
-The recording layer is added to one of the discs.
-The two discs are glued together.
Blu-ray discs only do the injection-molding process on a single 1.1-mm disc, which reduces cost. That savings balances out the cost of adding the protective layer, so the end price is no more than the price of a regular DVD.
Why would you want only a little bump in storage?
I'd like each special edition LoTR on one Disc thank you.
Ever consider Sony is not going to announce companies to titles on the way to Blu-Ray until you know, they annouce players that can play the movies? Like oh, PS3 at E3, I'm sure there will be movie announcements there.
I'd like each special edition LoTR on one Disc thank you.
Ever consider Sony is not going to announce companies to titles on the way to Blu-Ray until you know, they annouce players that can play the movies? Like oh, PS3 at E3, I'm sure there will be movie announcements there.
Is this supposed to be a rebuttal?
Again Sony has given us promises that Blu-Ray is going to be cheap but they offer no proof nor have they mentioned any pricing. Open your eyes...HD-DVD has 89 announced titles while Sony sits on its hands and spews out conjecture about Blu-Ray being affordable. Their actions are speaking far louder than their words.
.
Thank you.
So tell me, how many discs has www.howstuffworks.com produced? That's right NONE. Show me ONE production plant that isn't owned by Sony saying the same thing. You all are lemmings. Sony has admitted to NOTHING. No pricing or delivery dates no movie title announcements yet many of you cling to this fantasy that they don't have serious issues beginning to surface.
BTW, optical disks aren't just for movies. I've heard of people installing software from them, and even backing up data onto them
So capacity is important for far more than just minutes of video.
Still, I do hope Apple hires all the people here who have researched the technical details of Blu-Ray better than Apple did
And I'm afraid 89 titles isn't consumer momentum. It's simply to early for it to be that simple. A format with 89 titles isn't worth most shoppers committing to any more than one with zero. Wait until there are enough titles to matter--at which time there will be plenty of titles in both formats.
So capacity is important for far more than just minutes of video.
Still, I do hope Apple hires all the people here who have researched the technical details of Blu-Ray better than Apple did
And I'm afraid 89 titles isn't consumer momentum. It's simply to early for it to be that simple. A format with 89 titles isn't worth most shoppers committing to any more than one with zero. Wait until there are enough titles to matter--at which time there will be plenty of titles in both formats.
nuckinfutz said:
Hold on there what are these studios going to do, put a film that fits in VHS and DVD onto a disc that is much larger in capacity, what a waste of a damn disc, unless they film them again in HD or something, who knows.
Also I'd like to point out that in my opinion a format won't make it because Film studios have announced a very small amount of titles, that means nothing to me, big big companies including Apple have support for Blu-Ray, looks like HD-DVD is on its way out, you better stock up on those discs you love so much.
Well, *film* doesn't come in SD vs HD, in comes in 16mm, 35mm, 70mm ... Film resolution is much higher than current SD and HD TV resolutions. The studios will remaster the original film for HD DVD resolutions; they don't have to refilm anything.abrooks said:
Just my feeling: whoever/whichever Sony chooses will be the winner... and no, it won't happen the same beta/vhs deal... times are different
I think apple has been supporting this secretly for a while now because not only did they announced they were backing it they were also immediately put on the main board of companies backing it so. Engadget.com puts it better then me:
http://engadget.com/entry/1234000327035372/
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050310/sfth060_3.html
Also Disney which churns out a crap-load of dvd's is backing Blu-ray, Also Fox is too so the means Starwars will be on Blu-Ray yay.
http://engadget.com/entry/1234000327035372/ said:
http://engadget.com/entry/1234000327035372/
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050310/sfth060_3.html
Also Disney which churns out a crap-load of dvd's is backing Blu-ray, Also Fox is too so the means Starwars will be on Blu-Ray yay.
89 films doesn't sound like much. But it's a start that Blu-Ray hasn't had despite numerous showings of the hardware for the last two years.
The whole battle has been drawn along the lines of.
Codecs - initially Sony was only going to support MPEG2. Now they've added VC-1 and AVC.
Production Costs - Insiders in the industry new right away that Blu-Ray was going to be more expensive than DVD production. HD-DVD was specifically designed to build upon the DVD but Sony has eschewed this(primarily because WB gets more patent money from the DVD spec than they do) for a new format. Thus Sony has said "we will break from tradition and hopefully others will share the cost. HD-DVD gives me a format that meets the needs of movie distribution and keeps costs down so that I as a consumer may save.
Both formats will survive but those that keep claiming that Blu-Ray is superior do so from one vantage point or a total lack of understanding about the "behind the scenes" issues.
I'm not an insider but I'm into video production and thus I read what some of the insiders are saying and it's obvious that Blu-Ray has to deal with the cost issues before they start signing contracts.
The whole battle has been drawn along the lines of.
Codecs - initially Sony was only going to support MPEG2. Now they've added VC-1 and AVC.
Production Costs - Insiders in the industry new right away that Blu-Ray was going to be more expensive than DVD production. HD-DVD was specifically designed to build upon the DVD but Sony has eschewed this(primarily because WB gets more patent money from the DVD spec than they do) for a new format. Thus Sony has said "we will break from tradition and hopefully others will share the cost. HD-DVD gives me a format that meets the needs of movie distribution and keeps costs down so that I as a consumer may save.
Both formats will survive but those that keep claiming that Blu-Ray is superior do so from one vantage point or a total lack of understanding about the "behind the scenes" issues.
I'm not an insider but I'm into video production and thus I read what some of the insiders are saying and it's obvious that Blu-Ray has to deal with the cost issues before they start signing contracts.
lordmac said:I think apple has been supporting this secretly for a while now because not only did they announced they were backing it they were also immediately put on the main board of companies backing it so. Engadget.com puts it better then me:
http://engadget.com/entry/1234000327035372/
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050310/sfth060_3.html
Also Disney which churns out a crap-load of dvd's is backing Blu-ray, Also Fox is too so the means Starwars will be on Blu-Ray yay.
Show me where it says FOX is on board with either format... i thought they still had not decided.
"BD"
FYI, lots of info here:
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/
I stand corrected... HD-DVD does NOT have a simpler name than Blu-Ray discs... they're called BD's
BD-ROM - read-only format for software, games and movie distribution.
BD-R - recordable format for HDTV recording and PC data storage.
BD-RE - rewritable format for HDTV recording and PC data storage.
(I hope Apple doesn't use the term "BluperDrive" though.)
FYI, lots of info here:
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/
I stand corrected... HD-DVD does NOT have a simpler name than Blu-Ray discs... they're called BD's
BD-ROM - read-only format for software, games and movie distribution.
BD-R - recordable format for HDTV recording and PC data storage.
BD-RE - rewritable format for HDTV recording and PC data storage.
(I hope Apple doesn't use the term "BluperDrive" though.)
VHS! Betamax!
Blu-Ray! HD-DVD!
Tastes Great! Less Filling!
I'd be happy if Apple supported the existing dual layer plain old DVD drives already on the market.
Blu-Ray! HD-DVD!
Tastes Great! Less Filling!
I'd be happy if Apple supported the existing dual layer plain old DVD drives already on the market.
"Everything else is tenuous?" Quite a larf.nuckinfutz said:
Blu-ray is backed by Apple, with the Mac market. Also backed by Dell and HP, the two largest PC vendors in the world. Sony will also use it in their PCs, as well as in the PlayStation 3, and will be releasing their movies on it.
Blu-ray is also backed by MGM and Disney (including Buena Vista Home Entertainment and Miramax). Bandy around your '89 titles!' statistic all you like - then consider the entire Disney archive of films, animated and otherwise. Clearly, a per-title count is a pretty meaningless statistic.
Furthermore, about your 'bringing out the big titles like LotR':
Straight from Vic Harasimow's mouth:
"There have been announcements from three or four major Hollywood studios to say that they will plan to launch about 90 movie titles in HD-DVD within 2005. However, we know this to be a non exclusive deal... They are free to release on any format."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/4216291.stm
Blu-ray burners have been demonstrated at trade shows by: Hitachi, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Zenith.
http://www.blu-ray.com/recorders/
Also, Microsoft will NOT be using HD-DVD in the Xbox2, they will be using a standard 12x DVD drive and DVD-9s. They will be using the VC-1 codec for HD content for cut scenes, but won't be able to playback HD movies.
Here's an interesting note: Because of the unique layer configuration, you can manufacture a Blu-ray disc with a complete dual-layer DVD contained in the same disc.
http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?...e_News&Action=Print_Article&Content_ID=210651
How's that for backwards compatibility?
My two cents:
Neither of these will catch on in the movie market, simply because regular DVD quality is more than good enough for a standard television. There's no reason for people to buy their collections all over again - DVD already gave them commentaries, cut scenes, alternate angles, etc. This so-called format war will languish for years like an underground coal fire, except Blu-ray will become the standard for computer data storage, and that's all we care about anyway. In a few years all our computers will be able to play CDs, DVDs, HD-DVDs, and Blu-ray interchangeably.
PS: I suspect nuckinfutz is trolling. Oh well, I bit.
WAANNNNNT.
4GB per disc is NOT enough space for all the data I have to keep indexed. 'Course, if R9 (dual layer) is any indication, it'll be 20 years before Blu-Ray media is cheap enough to actually use.
4GB per disc is NOT enough space for all the data I have to keep indexed. 'Course, if R9 (dual layer) is any indication, it'll be 20 years before Blu-Ray media is cheap enough to actually use.
radio893fm said:
Sony?
The same company that just had a massive reorg of their executive staff which includes putting an American in the top slot and demoting the guy that delivered the Playstation? The same company that failed to get Beta entrenched as a consumer format? The same company that bungled their lead in Walkmans or gave us useless formats like MicroMV or Digital8? The same company that has allowed SACD to stagnate?
I'm waiting to be impressed with Sony.
They haven't played well with their peers and quite honestly their peers have caught up and surpassed them in many areas. I want Sony to do well but they must lose the arrogance that got them in this position.
HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray is going to make it actually "cheaper" for consumers. I expect the war to cause a price errosion that will save us money. Eventually I expect Universal players to be developed when component costs come down.
Or maybe it's just that HD-DVD is coming out around 6 months sooner than blu-ray in the U.S. I'm sure at launch there will be plenty of blu-ray titles available from Columbia, MGM, and Disney, perhaps others as well. The deals may be non-exclusive, but I can pretty much guarantee that all Columbia and MGM (Sony subsidiaries) titles will be Blu-ray only unless blu-ray loses the format war, which I don't think will happen.
Well if we buy in to this argument then we don't need ANY new format as there are ways to make HD resolution movies fit on double layer, or even single layer standard DVDs. Some titles are already available in WM9 format or even Divx-HD.
More space means one of two things really, more audio/video, or higher quality audio/video. Just look at the supported bitrates for the formats:
DVD - 11.1mbps
HD-DVD - 36.5 mbps
Blu-ray - 54 mbps
That extra throughput could mean things like uncompressed audio rather than Dolby Digital or DTS. PCM is supported on DVD but rarely ever used. It may not happen, but there is potential for future growth, whereas HD-DVD is pretty much maxed out with a 2 hour movie. Seeing as how we're not likely to get another successful format for years to come, I would rather have the one with the most potential.
In my opinion, at the present time, HD-DVD will be the winner. Not because it is technically superior to Sony's Blu-Ray, but because it is a baby step in terms of implementation. All of the technology to make and distribute an HD-DVD is here, the Blu-Ray consortium still seems to be trying to figure out exactly how they will create these things,
"Well, gentlemen we need to figure out a way to set up facilities to manufacture the special coatings and disks, and on top of that we need to make sure that the manufacturing processes are efficient enough to spit these things out in sufficient numbers."
While all the materials and manufacturing processes already exsist for HD-DVD. This won't mean the death for Blu-Ray technology, it's just not completely ready right now.
Here's how I think the progression will go:
CD -> DVD -> HD-DVD -> Blu-Ray -> ?
"Well, gentlemen we need to figure out a way to set up facilities to manufacture the special coatings and disks, and on top of that we need to make sure that the manufacturing processes are efficient enough to spit these things out in sufficient numbers."
While all the materials and manufacturing processes already exsist for HD-DVD. This won't mean the death for Blu-Ray technology, it's just not completely ready right now.
Here's how I think the progression will go:
CD -> DVD -> HD-DVD -> Blu-Ray -> ?
Never thought this would become such a heated discussion....
I'm just glad Apple followed the rest of the PC vendors. No more "Damn, burnt on a Mac, so won't play on my PC (or vice versa)"
Apple has to stay compatible with the rest no matter what.
If most PC makers will use HD-DVD... then so should Apple. They opt for Blu Ray? Good. So should Apple. Finally Apple didn't choose before the rest did
Any possibilities for a drive compatible with both?
I'm just glad Apple followed the rest of the PC vendors. No more "Damn, burnt on a Mac, so won't play on my PC (or vice versa)"
Apple has to stay compatible with the rest no matter what.
If most PC makers will use HD-DVD... then so should Apple. They opt for Blu Ray? Good. So should Apple. Finally Apple didn't choose before the rest did
Any possibilities for a drive compatible with both?
Nay. Nuck is an "old hand" here who just happens to be a contrarian when he can. I simply got tired of being told that Blu-Ray is superior. Yes I readily admit that Blu-Ray is superior in capacity. But beyond that the technologies even at best. I plan to own both formats because I love movies and buying two players is what I must do.
Most studios aren't going to give an exclusive to either format. Thus whatever format is demonstrably cheaper to produce will eventually see the lion's share of production. I believe that format to be HD-DVD.
Sony is the world leader in optical disc technology. Will that be enough. We shall see soon enough.
abrooks said:
Any movie shot on film could be transferred to an HD format. In fact many already have been mastered in HD.
When a film gets "tele-cined" for a video format the resulting master is often up to HD spec. If you see a current DVD that says "mastered in high definition" then an HD transfer for that film already exists. It was just down-rezzed when transferred to DVD.
More HD quality masters exist than are touted on the boxes.
A lot of old films are being transferred to HD for preservation as well, so HD masters of these are ready to go for whatever future format wins.
The tv network "HDNet Movies" has been showing many older films that have been transferred to HD, and Universal-HD has been doing the same.
In some cases there are certainly movies that will have to be re-transferred because the only video master is lower than HD resolution, but as long as the film copy still exists it would be possible.
On another subject : Extra space.
I would imagine some movies might benefit from a SuperBit-style treatment even after an HD disc standard is set. Although HD only requires a certain amount of bandwidth, what's to stop manufacturers from giving certain titles a little more for even better picture quality? That would eat up the extra GBs.
nuckinfutz said:
If it's superior in capacity and everything else is even, it's a better format. There's no "but" about it.
~J
You're being awfully short-sighted here. Sure, HD-DVD will be cheaper to produce at first, but blu-ray will come down as well. When the PS3 comes out there is going to be a high demand for blu-ray replication and that demand will find willing replication facilities. This will bring costs down. So far no game system has announced support for HD-DVD, it looks as though X-Box is going to have a standard DVD drive, and I doubt that Nintendo will use HD-DVD.
So by your logic,
HD-DVD - 89 titles announced, no game system
Blu-Ray - no titles announced, major game system with hundreds of guaranteed titles.
nuckinfutz said:
Well sure, I suppose it doesn't mean squat for those studios that have been overtaken by marketing BS and don't realize Blu-Ray will cost less in the long run. Being able to fit more on a Blu-Ray disc benefits everyone. They could put both versions of a movie (theatrical and director's cut) on a single disc plus all the extras and still not have to dumb down the bitrate. Also, the extra capacity will be very important to those who want to record HD content. People tend to forget about the recording aspect.
Look, it's obvious that HD-DVD is the absolute bare minimum needed for HD content. Is it ever safe to go with the bare minimum? Who knows what the future brings. It was thought DVD had enough capacity until extras and featurettes came along. Those who care about quality will want higher bitrates as well. Manufacturers and consumers alike need to look further down the road. If a HD format is to last more than a couple years it must offer more that the bare minumum.
Microsoft is to HD-DVD as Apple is to Blu-Ray. Think about it.