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Hate to quote Mr. Dvorak, but here's what he said in a recent article taken from http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1750098,00.asp

When new technologies emerge, there are always competitors, and the current battle raging between the Blu-ray DVD standard (HP, Panasonic, Sony, etc.) and the newer HD-DVD technology (NEC, Sanyo, Toshiba) is no exception. A clear winner hasn't emerged, but looking at the history of this sort of battle, it's apparent to me that HD-DVD will win. Here's why.


Both technologies are targeting the same market: HDTV and data storage. HD-DVD emphasizes HDTV, with a 30GB capacity and a smoother backward compatibility with current DVD technology. A Blu-ray disc holds a whopping 50GB on two layers; Sony has announced an eight-layer drive to hold 200GB. The latter sounds like an ideal backup medium, but making a drive with four writable layers on each side that works outside the lab seems far-fetched.


The scene is further complicated by the competing compression schemes. The recently ratified H.264 (or H.264/AVC), otherwise known as MPEG-4 Part 10—the latest iteration of the MPEG-4 standard—can produce images of better quality than MPEG-2 (used by DVD technology), with twice the compression. HD images require around seven times the disk capacity of SD (standard definition) TV images when recorded. (I derived this number by using an HD-DVR.) With H.264 and 30GB, you have the MPEG-2 equivalency of about 60GB, which should easily hold an HD movie. The Blu-ray has much more leeway.




If H.264 isn't good enough, then there is the Microsoft VC-1 codec, derived from Windows Media 9 technology. By all accounts, it's at least as good as, if not better than, H.264. It's so good that the Blu-ray specification calls for it to be used jointly with H.264. From an objective standpoint, we have a superior technology in Blu-ray competing with something not as good. It sounds like the Betamax versus VHS battle. But there I would argue that the definition of superior was in the eyes of the beholder. That's the problem with judging technology based on one's perception or definition of superiority. Users found VHS technology was superior, because the tapes could hold more hours of programming. And this was more important to them than image quality.


We must examine technologies in terms of what I call practical superiority: the differentiation that is responsible for eventual success in the marketplace. Then we must consider secondary issues of politics and promotion. If all things are equal, can one technology overtake the other with superior marketing?


If we look at capacity alone, Blu-ray is clearly superior. I suspect that just as the image-quality gap was eventually closed between VHS and Beta, the capacity gap will close here too. So what is HD-DVD's practical superiority? It's cheaper to make and more easily made backward-compatible. Cheaper to make is the key here, especially in a world where the emphasis is shifting to places like India and China. If image quality is the same, the cheaper product will win. Thus the major Hollywood studios have said they'll support HD-DVD. Sony Entertainment, of course, won't (yet).


Then there are the politics of this—the most interesting aspect. First, the DVD Forum has endorsed HD-DVD and not Blu-ray. The Sony-led Blu-ray consortium probably didn't think this was important, after witnessing the emergence of DVD+RW without any support from the DVD Forum.


Another subtext is the copy-protection mechanism. The HD-DVD system is being sold as uncrackable. True or not, it sounds good to Hollywood. Blu-ray seems more liberal in its approach, with "limited-copy" mechanisms similar to those found on DAT recorders. This factor alone could kill Blu-ray among the paranoid Hollywood types. One copy, even if legal, is to be avoided as far as they are concerned.


Then there are the codecs. Manufacturers have to pay for each one installed in every unit. So how long will VC-1 and H.264 coexist in the same boxes when they do the same thing? Do we need two formats? I sense the cheap-thinking HD-DVD folks are ready to scrap VC-1, while Blu-ray is not.


The final factor is the arrows-in-the-back phenomenon, which occurs when a technology comes out too far ahead of the curve—as Blu-ray did. It's been around for years without getting any traction. This makes it seem old—or as if it never worked right. "Blu-ray, I've heard of that. Did they ever get it to work?" Meanwhile, HD-DVD is new and jazzy.


When you put these factors together, along with Sony's track record for being on the wrong side of the technology split, it's hard to see Blu-ray winning this one. Hello, HD-DVD!
 
Or maybe it's just that HD-DVD is coming out around 6 months sooner than blu-ray in the U.S.

Or perhaps the pricing and production facilities for Blu-Ray aren't at a point where studios are signing the dotted lines and announcing. I really hate to see the announcements (read committment) of these 3 studios trivialized. Thy have stated not only that HD-DVD movies are coming but they've let the public know the exact titles. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Well if we buy in to this argument then we don't need ANY new format as there are ways to make HD resolution movies fit on double layer, or even single layer standard DVDs. Some titles are already available in WM9 format or even Divx-HD.

Incorrecto. HD video requires more space of course but there is a balancing act that needs to happen. The needs of studios are simple.

1. It has to hold your basic feature length film 2hrs or so.
2. It has to be producable in large numbers for a decent cost.
3. The end product has to be reliable and maintain a min set of qualit

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray can do this. DVD-9 cannot IMO.

VC-1 and AVC will quickly take over. 5.5GB of HD content per hour should be easy and audio is easy. Even DTS-HD will only require 1.5mbs per channel. Thus you tack on say 8Mbps to the 12Mbps for video and you're comfortable on both formats.
 
MacNut said:
What one has better quality and capacity Blu-ray or HD-DVD?

HD DVD is 30 GB, Blu ray is 54 GB.

However, HD-DVD is VASTLY cheaper to produce, and owned by a consortium of hardware companies, while Blu-ray is controlled completely by Sony (one company).
 
nuckinfutz said:
Yes I readily admit that Blu-Ray is superior in capacity. But beyond that the technologies even at best.

Um, its a storage medium - what more do you want it to do exactly? Give you a backrub? Cook you dinner?

The whole of these new discs is to store more information - therefore the one that is capable of storing the most is therefore obviously the best!!!

As for the argument it costs more, so what? If it holds more data, it justifies its higher cost to me. New technologies are always expensive to begin with, but the price quickly drops once production ramps up. Don't you think the original CDs originally cost more to produce than an LP? Or DVD's originally costing much more than CDs? The fact they cost more didn't mean they weren't a good idea to support.
 
The whole of these new discs is to store more information - therefore the one that is capable of storing the most is therefore obviously the best!!!

As for the argument it costs more, so what? If it holds more data, it justifies its higher cost to me. New technologies are always expensive to begin with, but the price quickly drops once production ramps up. Don't you think the original CDs originally cost more to produce than an LP? Or DVD's originally costing much more than CDs? The fact they cost more didn't mean they weren't a good idea to support.

The best in a archival/backup solution T.Rex. This storage advantage plays no bearing in what the studios want since price is their primary concern once their other needs have been met(2hr movie playback). You won't sneeze at the difference of a few dimes but when they are having billions of discs produced they worry a bit more about the pennies being paid than you or I.

I'm simply giving some of you a reason why Blu-Ray isn't going to be the slam dunk that some portray it to be. I welcome both formats and think that HDTV is a wonderful technology.
 
After reading the Dvorak article above...most interesting.

Sooo, HD-DVD is made easily backwards compatible, but Blu-ray is not?

Well, this certainly explains why the Nintendo Revolution (rumored to have HD-DVD) is (according to Nintendo's statements made today) backwards compatible with GameCube games (which are mini-DVDs).

But here's something to wonder about. Can Sony make the PS3 play PS2 (DVD) and PS1 (CD) games?
 
T.Rex said:
Um, its a storage medium - what more do you want it to do exactly? Give you a backrub? Cook you dinner?

The whole of these new discs is to store more information - therefore the one that is capable of storing the most is therefore obviously the best!!!

As for the argument it costs more, so what? If it holds more data, it justifies its higher cost to me. New technologies are always expensive to begin with, but the price quickly drops once production ramps up. Don't you think the original CDs originally cost more to produce than an LP? Or DVD's originally costing much more than CDs? The fact they cost more didn't mean they weren't a good idea to support.

Problems with Blu-ray:
1) It costs more.
2) It's not backwards compatible. A BD player can't play DVDs. An HD-DVD player can.
3) It's controlled by a single company, Sony. HD-DVD is not controlled by any one company.
 
Taken from HD-DVD's promotion site

The genius of HD DVDs is adoption of the same basic disc structure as DVD, allowing disc manufacturers to make full use of current production facilities and to minimize investment costs. Experience in setting up mass production lines for HD DVD discs shows excellent results, including production costs close to those for current DVD. HD DVDs can be produced and brought to market at a reasonable cost, a fact that is sure to spur early expansion of the medium.

This is the part that many people are underestimating. The ease of production because of the same directory structure is a blessing and potentially a curse(remains to be seen).

The advantages of a common disc structure

The shared disc structure of HD DVD and DVD offers numerous advantages to consumers and manufacturers alike. Full backward compatibility allows consumers to enjoy their current DVD library and crystal-clear HD video on the same HD DVD player. DVD disc replicators can utilize their current production equipment with only minor modifications and quickly establish a worldwide manufacturing infrastructure to sustain HDDVD software business development. Moreover, the simple structure of a single-lens optical head that can accommodate both red and blue laser diodes will realize compact systems.


As much as some try to poo poo the price advantage. Walmart is huge for a reason. Costco's lots are full for a reason. Price trumps just about all.
 
I suggest to everyone who is really interested in the blu-ray vs. hd-dvd pros and cons (hint: there are basically zero pros to hd-dvd as their "cost advantage" will be not only minimal, but also short-lived) to leave this thread and read the following thread on the avs forums where many very knowledgable folks post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=411600&perpage=20&pagenumber=236

Yes, the thread is at page 236 right now :eek:, but it's very interesting and shows just how clueless some posters over here are... *cough* nuckinfutz *cough* GFLPraxis *cough* :)
 
Hi, new member here...

A few thoughts...

Dvorak's crystal ball leaves a lot to be desired. I wish I had a dollar for every time he's written an obituary for Apple. If he's betting on HD-DVD, then it's Blu Ray by a mile.

IMO, Apple is very smart to go with the Blu Ray format. If Dell & HP are going Blu Ray, then this will be the PC standard. The drives will become a commodity (i.e., cheaper and more plentiful).

Apple will be able to offer desktops & notebooks with high def drives at the same time as Dell & HP. If Apple were the only major computer maker on the HD-DVD side, they'd be in a very weak position in terms of getting Toshiba to make notebook-sized drives, etc.
 
GFLPraxis said:
Problems with Blu-ray:
1) It costs more.
2) It's not backwards compatible. A BD player can't play DVDs. An HD-DVD player can.
3) It's controlled by a single company, Sony. HD-DVD is not controlled by any one company.

1) Not by much, and not for long.
2) LOL... of course BD players will be able to play DVDs. Don't be silly.
3) Sigh... there are over 100 companys supporting blu-ray, with most of the big names on their directors board.
 

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True. Blu-Ray retrofit plus extra cost of disc coatings means way too high of an economic disparity between the competing formats. Even though of it's higher capacity, I still believe HD DVD will win out in the end.
 
the future said:
1) Not by much, and not for long.
2) LOL... of course BD players will be able to play DVDs. Don't be silly.
3) Sigh... there are over 100 companys supporting blu-ray, with most of the big names on their director's board

1) How can you say that, when it'll require the entire industry to adapt around it? The initial BD players will be very expensive.
2) To quote the above article:
So what is HD-DVD's practical superiority? It's cheaper to make and more easily made backward-compatible.
Why would it be able to play normal DVD's? Normal DVD's and HD-DVD use a red laser, right? Blu-ray uses a blue one. Sooo...it'll be harder to get backwards compatability.
3) There are over 100 supporting Blu-ray. Sony still controls it absolutely. Those 100 just are supporting making it the standard.
 
the future said:
I suggest to everyone who is really interested in the blu-ray vs. hd-dvd pros and cons (hint: there are basically zero pros to hd-dvd as their "cost advantage" will be not only minimal, but also short-lived) to leave this thread and read the following thread on the avs forums where many very knowledgable folks post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=411600&perpage=20&pagenumber=236

Yes, the thread is at page 236 right now :eek:, but it's very interesting and shows just how clueless some posters over here are... *cough* nuckinfutz *cough* GFLPraxis *cough* :)

I just quoted the article, bud. Don't blame me if Dvorak is an idiot.
I was listing the advantages and disadvantages according to the above article.
From what I've seen I still feel I'm correct unless you can SHOW ME where I am wrong. And sending me a 250 page discussion and saying "read this" doesn't count.
 
Yes, the thread is at page 236 right now , but it's very interesting and shows just how clueless some posters over here are... *cough* nuckinfutz *cough* GFLPraxis *cough*

Hmmmmm AVS huh. What's your response to these points then. Alex seems to know his stuff too :p

This whole thread rocks

Dan,

I have no ties to either camp, nor to the industry. Sometimes I like to play devil's advocate, sometimes I like to correct blantant mis(dis)information. There is a lot of misinformation surrounding both formats here, and, unfortuately, there's a lot of disinformation as well. Sometimes, I like to stick up for the little guy.

My "support" for HD-DVD is based on one thing, and one thing only: I believe that it will get more HD movies that I want to watch into my hands faster than BD. No matter how you slice it, both formats satisfy Hollywood's requirements, both will look a hell of a lot better than what we have now (including D-Theater). The format that poses the least amount of hurdles, the format that that requires the least amount of capital investment...that's the format that's most likely to ramp up fastest.

If the BDA announced tomorrow that they will have a deck available Q4 for $1000 MSRP and 89 studio titles available Q4 for $20-30 MSRP a pop, I'd find it in my heart to spread the love. Said another way, if BD-ROM had cost partity (or a seriously legitimate chance of it in a reasonable timeframe) with HD-DVD, we wouldn't be facing a war...but we are...because BD-ROM won't have cost parity with HD-DVD for a long, long time...if ever, assuming both formats split the market.

And before people start flaming me for wanting an "inferior" product, please understand that I place a high value on video and audio quality...before I moved to the islands, I was using a G90 + HTPC + MP-1 Radeon + Faroudja DVP-5000 for video, with an MC-12B, monoblocks and a 7.1 Aerial setup for audio.

I will say this, though: there do seem to be an increasing number of BD supporters who are clasping their hands over their ears and screaming "Not listening!" when their "facts" are countered, or when their assumptions are rendered baseless. If anything, I think their motives or ties to the indstry should be questioned.


Hmm sounds like not all of us are seduced by the "spacious" Blu-Ray.

Please someone point out to me where I'm blatantly wrong?
 
It's a brilliant way to respond though.

Someone disagrees with you, send them a link to a 250 page discussion and tell them that the answer is somewhere in there, and then hint how the people arguing with you are clueless.
 
nuckinfutz said:
Please someone point out to me where I'm blatantly wrong?

You're not. From what I've seen, people are just looking at the numbers, and saying, "Ooooh, more gigs, me want!" and not considering all the factors.
 
The thing I find the most interesting is that Steve mentioned future Blu-Ray support at Macworld, and I'm apparently the only person that noticed :rolleyes:
 
GFLPraxis said:
It's a brilliant way to respond though.

Someone disagrees with you, send them a link to a 250 page discussion and tell them that the answer is somewhere in there, and then hint how the people arguing with you are clueless.

GFLPraxis.

That's what people do when they can't attack your information. They attack you. It won't work though because we aren't saying that BR sucks. We're just saying that HD-DVD is better than what most people give it credit for. Frankly i'm amazed that.

1. We're going to have HD playback on a device that uses the same structure as DVD.
2. That compression tech like AVC and VC-1 are going to enable excellent quality at SD and HD datarates.

Apple is likely going with BR for its prowess from within a computing environment. I'm sure we'll have Blu-Ray options in Longhorn and HD-DVD options in OSX. In the end it is really about the bottom line. $$$$
 
It's always interesting to see people take sides, without know ALL the details of both formats, and then decide to defend it like its some sort of a religion.
 
Teamwork

Apple and Sony have obviously been trying to do something together for a while - this is just more proof. The HD thing, and now Blu-ray... I think that both Sony and Apple design GREAT hardware (I love VIAOS, inferior to Macs but still very nice) but only Apple designs GREAT software. I think that a partnership would be beneficial.

How much more time until a Sony Pictures-sponsored Apple Movie Store? Or Sony PDAs/phones running an Apple-written OS? Or a cell-powered Apple Server or high-end workstation? The possibilites are endless.

Calihafan
 
Blu-Ray will play DVDs and maybe CDs. We have "combo drives" right now that do DVD and CD so why not do a "combo-drive EXTREME?" (TM) Cost is my only concern...
 
interesting...between this and the Ram rumor - me thinks something is almost inevitable...512 becoming stadard - probably required for tiger and the blue ray - the next PM will have this.
 
OMG

OMG I have to buy a new player to play music! OMG All these cassette tapes won't work in a CD player! OMG Why do I need that much space when my cassettes seem to hold all the music I need? Why can't we just stick with the same technology forever, so I don't have to buy new things for a better product. The lame cassettes work for me! Psshhaaaww, who needs digital content. Besides I heard something about DVD's that hold like 10x what a CD holds. What are these people thinking!! Cassettes for LIFE! :rolleyes:

Blue-ray offers much more in terms of capacity (maybe other things?) than the traditional red-ray since it uses a high frequency. Get over it and advance the tech, and stop whining about compatibility. Capitalism will force you to upgrade sooner or later, might as well upgrade to something that benefits you and is not just a business profit ploy.
 
Lord Blackadder said:
Bad example - the porn industry heartily embraced Betamax back in the day.

I disagree. The porn industry embraced home video and put their wares on Beta and VHS.
 
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