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Yet another play from the same playbook, unfortunately.
Yes. The DMA is making it difficult to comply and hence Apple has to jump through hoops.
It's designed this way, by Apple, on purpose.
Very frustrating.
The DMA is very frustrating I agree. The eu can’t come out and say outright we don’t you, Apple, to make any money from your App Store. Therefore after studying apples model for a bit they crafted legislation designed to make it difficult for apple to make service revenue in the eu. And here we are today.
 
The ultimate play may simply be reduce the fee to a point competitive app stores can't make money, and only ones that have apps Apple won't carry can survive at a much higher fee than Apple.

Sideloading would solve a lot of issues as well, with Apple letting the user decide on the level of access to allow non-signed apps so you could go from never to have at everything on my device...



So the question for the developer is 'which store brings in more revenue?'

It will be interesting to see how long EPIC keeps its 0% fee for less than a million in revenue model if Apple would allow sideloading that costs developers nothing to implement.

That model means every app developer should at least put their app on EPIC's store since it costs them nothing.
Probably indefinitely considering it’s the same thing they have for UE5 developers. And if Apple makes it free to sideloading it would make it cheaper for the epic store considering they are currently paying all the CTF for the developers

And I guess if Apple lowers the AppStore fee to 0 or below 12% would just put them on par as the cost for putting the app on alternative stores would still be optimally no different for the developers

The store is already financed by their normal store
EU: "You can't force all developers to give you money"
:apple:: "It's for the safety of users"
EU: "It has nothing to do with safety"
:apple:: "Ok, we'll get rid of safety requirements but we still want a lot of money"
EU: "You think this is a joke?"
:apple:: "Ok, a little less money"
EU: "Dude..."

By the time Apple actually complies and gives iPhone users who paid hundreds of dollars for their phones the ability to install what they want and pay how they want, they'll have squeezed so much money out of the market that no fine could possibly take back a relevant percentage of what has been extorted through the years.
He… no the fines Apple can get can absolutely wipe out any revenue Apple made from the store.

Just against Spotify they payed 2 billion.
The last DMA fine was 0.5 billion. And they can gonup towards 20% global revenue. And I would bet the profits from EU is much smaller than that
 
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He… no the fines Apple can get can absolutely wipe out any revenue Apple made from the store.

Just against Spotify they payed 2 billion.
The last DMA fine was 0.5 billion. And they can gonup towards 20% global revenue. And I would bet the profits from EU is much smaller than that
While I'm not one who thinks Apple is going to pull out of the EU, if the EU starts fining Apple more than Apple makes in the EU it absolutely will.
 
Extorted? From who? Do you believe people who use apples platform think apple extorts them? If so this is not being thought all the way through.
Users don't even know what's going on.
If someone takes your money from your house and you don't even realize it, you're still being robbed. Right?
Call it extortion from developers or users, the substance doesn't change: Apple has been forcing payments that have nothing to do with the services they offer to pass through their money-grabbing system. Laws in the EU clearly didn't allow that. There have been rulings. Apple still wants that money. Facts.
 
I'm starting to think, that this back and forth will go on for years. Ultimately regulators might just lose patience and go with the nuclear option and mandate a fee structure for all smartphone stores OR even force Apple to completely divest from the App Store.
 
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1) and 2) I think Apple has every right from blocking apps it doesn't approve on from using its IP.
Indeed and that’s a benefit of alternative stores to provide that. If Apple don’t want the latest 50 shades of grey the game they can block that and those who like that can go somewhere else that offers it
3) This would break Sandboxing. The adblocker app would need visibility into other apps' data in order to block ads. In addition, the app would need access to all network traffic and potentially the ability to modify said network traffic. That could totally be used by malicious actors or just sketchy ad brokers.
No need as it’s blocking the server connection through the network. Effectively how addblocking on router level works
4) Each engine has its own codebase with its own bugs and vulnerabilities. Multiple engines increase the attack surface. they also may include JIT, which is a security risk (there's a reason Apple disbale's JIT on safari in Lockdown Mode).
Multiple engines lowers the attack surface. If I’m using my own browser engine that is much safer. How will they attack me if they can just assume I’m using WebKit and attack from that angle?
5) See point 1. Additionally, emulators are used as piracy facilitation devices by 99.9% of users, which Apple shouldn't be obligated to support.
If the user is breaking the law that’s on the user and not Apple. And if Apple don’t want to support emulators( as they now kind of do) they can let other stores do that.
6) Developer tools, depending on how comprehensive they are, could allow bad actors to do things like bypass DRM restrictions, tamper with the sandbox, execute arbitrary code, etc.
Well Xcode 🤷‍♂️

While I'm not one who thinks Apple is going to pull out of the EU, if the EU starts fining Apple more than Apple makes in the EU it absolutely will.
Obviously, but it’s possible Apple can be fined and lose any revenue they made by trying to stall the DMA compliance and effectively make it more expensive to cooperate and not drag it out
 
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I'm starting to think, that this back and forth will go on for years. Ultimately regulators might just lose patience and go with the nuclear option and mandate a fee structure for all smartphone stores OR even force Apple to completely divest from the App Store.
I’m not entirely sure that would help. Apple monetises developer access to the iOS platform via the App Store.

Removing the App Store from Apple simply removes the mechanism by which they currently charge for that access.
 
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Users don't even know what's going on.
If someone takes your money from your house and you don't even realize it, you're still being robbed. Right?
Call it extortion from developers or users, the substance doesn't change: Apple has been forcing payments that have nothing to do with the services they offer to pass through their money-grabbing system. Laws in the EU clearly didn't allow that. There have been rulings. Apple still wants that money. Facts.
So the answer is no. You believe somehow that MR has knowledge superiority over a “regular” user. The masses, then hundreds of millions of customer, who spend on apples products and services are uneducated and have the wool pulled over their eyes?

I think the customers have it right and many who post here have it wrong. Facts.
 
So why does that only apply to iOS (and by extension iPad OS)?
Who said it should only apply to iOS? Same for any company that makes a platform. Android should be run however Google wants. Steam should run however steam chooses to run it. Epic, Spotify, Apple Music, etc. All of it.
 
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I've never seen so much FUD and paranoia.

Too may folks have been completely "Apple narrative pilled" here.

Based on some of these comments, you'd think using macOS is like being dropped off in a third world country with gold jewelry on.

I'd implore some of you to at least consider that you've been highly influenced by Apple pushed business narratives.
 
So the answer is no. You believe somehow that MR has knowledge superiority over a “regular” user. The masses, then hundreds of millions of customer, who spend on apples products and services are uneducated and have the wool pulled over their eyes?

I think the customers have it right and many who post here have it wrong. Facts.
You misunderstood and twisted all I'm saying.
Users know what they're buying.
Users are ok with the price.
Well, they kinda have to be ok if there's no alternative, but let's just say they're ok with it.
Apple is illegally taking some of that money.
The price could be lower for the user or profits could be higher for developers.
Users may or may not know all of this. Let's say they all know... what's the difference?
Is it clear now?
It doesn't matter if the user agrees, Apple should still respect laws.
 
You misunderstood and twisted all I'm saying.
Users know what they're buying.
Users are ok with the price.
Well, they kinda have to be ok if there's no alternative, but let's just say they're ok with it.
Apple is illegally taking some of that money.
Please explain how Apple is "illegally" taking some of the money?

The price could be lower for the user or profits could be higher for developers.
Users may or may not know all of this. Let's say they all know... what's the difference?
Is it clear now?
It doesn't matter if the user agrees, Apple should still respect laws.
Agree Apple needs to follow the law. But if Apple thinks the law is immoral/wrong, shouldn't Apple comply to the least extent allowed, in a way that results in the least amount of harm to Apple and its users?
 
And there are so many more people who love iOS just the way it is. You’re projecting your desires and feelings onto a user base that has a billion more users than the Mac does.


Seriously?!? Dude, just by an Android and be happy.


Apple isn’t a government and you have choice. And yet, you’re supporting an actual government telling consumer like me “you can’t have a closed ecosystem like you prefer because we say so”. Talk about nanny state! Less choice is more choice! Big Brother would be proud of the EU.


The protections on the Mac are not sufficient with iOS’ user base. iOS has over 10x the user base of the Mac, with exponentially more unsophisticated users. And have you looked at a “normal user’s” Mac? They’re a mess. Random processes running in the background draining battery, applications running from .dmg files, etc. Viruses still exist. They’re not as common because Apple has such a small user base (~100m people, compared to over a billion on iOS) but they still exist. And they’ll be more prevalent on iOS if the EU gets its way.

I firmly believe iOS’ current limitations are the greatest good for the greatest number of Apple’s users. Not the greatest good for technology enthusiasts posting on MacRumors, to be clear, but Apple’s user base is so much bigger than us.
Seriously. All the controls Apple wants can't stop general users clicking on a spam email or a phishing SMS. They've made them so reliant on Apple to fix their problems for them that it's made them easier prey for wider scams. The amount of WhatsApp scams around is ridiculous and this is but one siloed app controlled by one company.

I don't believe Apple maliciously meant for this to happen. The iPhone was originally designed to be a satellite device for a PC or Mac after all, not the central platform.

But we're now in a position where the general public need to take personal responsibility for their devices. We should be educating children on their use at high achool and somehow getting adults to be better at noticing scam messages. Continuing to operate closed platforms where they put all their trust into a monolithic tech company that seems friendly on the surface isn't the way to do it.
 
You misunderstood and twisted all I'm saying.
Users know what they're buying.
Users are ok with the price.
Well, they kinda have to be ok if there's no alternative, but let's just say they're ok with it.
There are alternatives to Apple products.
Apple is illegally taking some of that money.
No they are not. They are doing what is legally allowed and customers are well within their rights to buy somewhere else.
The price could be lower for the user or profits could be higher for developers.
Well then devs could fund their own infrastructure. That’s what happens when one relies on someone else for their goods.
Users may or may not know all of this. Let's say they all know... what's the difference?
Is it clear now?
It doesn't matter if the user agrees, Apple should still respect laws.
Apple respects the laws and legally fights as it can.
 
Seriously. All the controls Apple wants can't stop general users clicking on a spam email or a phishing SMS. They've made them so reliant on Apple to fix their problems for them that it's made them easier prey for wider scams. The amount of WhatsApp scams around is ridiculous and this is but one siloed app controlled by one company.

I don't believe Apple maliciously meant for this to happen. The iPhone was originally designed to be a satellite device for a PC or Mac after all, not the central platform.

But we're now in a position where the general public need to take personal responsibility for their devices. We should be educating children on their use at high achool and somehow getting adults to be better at noticing scam messages. Continuing to operate closed platforms where they put all their trust into a monolithic tech company that seems friendly on the surface isn't the way to do it.
I agree wholeheartedly that we should be educating children and adults on how to better recognize scams and malicious actors, but you can't just wave a magic wand say "there, that solves the issue."

I couldn't disagree more strongly that the option for a closed platform, where the platform owner is able to take care of many of the attack vectors for those customers who don't want to think about it, or would like extra protection, should not be able to exist, particularly when an open platform exists for those who prefer it.

What you're saying it "because I know better, I should be able to force everyone to be less safe, over the objections of the platform owner, even though an option exists for me that does what I want." I think that's narrow-minded and borderline selfish.
 
The DMA is pathetic and harms the consumer. Consumers don't want to go outside the app and this creates an unnecessary extra step. This is just beyond greed by Tim Sweeney of Epic Games and the like. It's objectively true.
No, consumers want a choice, both sides in this are bad. Those using outside links have mostly dropped the option for App Store payments.

On some apps, I’m happy to use outside payment, because I already have a payment relationship. For others, I want the convenience of using the App Store, or I might not know i or trust the developer.

That should be my choice.
 
Maybe this is the key to the puzzle:
  • Apple to charge whatever they want for apps listed on app store; here Apple is the channel and entitled to finders fee
  • Allow downloading apps through external link with just developer tech fees; here Apple has not contributed to anything but dev tools
That sounds appropriate as long as Epic does the same licensing with the Epic Games store vs the Unreal engine. After all, they are only providing dev tools.
 
I don't think you want to develop real free games for consoles, unlike people, who want to build free apps for iOS/Android (and for Android it works, wow!).


Consoles also run apps, did you know?

And btw, Nintendo doesn't have annual fee, you pay once for a devkit and can use it for a lifetime for your works.

Nintendo's developer program is largely behind NDA. We don't know other fees such as app/update submissions. Apple charges a flat rate of $99/year and you can submit 1000 updates in a year.
 
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And I’d bet target probably makes a similar commission to what Apple takes for an IAP for the same transaction. 🤷‍♂️

1. Don't see the relevancy. The argument surrounds whether or not you can sell unlockable digital goods outside the app. The answer is yes.
2. Epic sold Fortnite vbucks directly from their own website.
 
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I agree wholeheartedly that we should be educating children and adults on how to better recognize scams and malicious actors, but you can't just wave a magic wand say "there, that solves the issue."
It's not an instant fix, but it is the digital equivalent of teaching a man to fish. Everyone should be more digitally aware and we don't achieve this by mollycoddling them. And we certainly don't do it by entrusting the entire stack to a single unaccountable tech firm with their own agenda.

I might have trusted the Apple of 2015 to do it but the Apple of 2025 is not the same company at all.
 
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iOS apps only work on an entire platform invented by, and owned by one single company. That company should have 100% control over everything about it.
Apps programmed against a specific Windows API only work on a supported operating system invented by and owned by one single company. Should Microsoft have 100% control over everything about that operating system? Would Microsoft be within their rights (not in the legal sense but in terms of what you consider fair) if they activated a switch they had secretly put in every Windows version since Windows 95 that would block each 3rd-party application from running unless its developer paid Microsoft one million dollars? Then you couldn't run those Windows apps you had bought and whose developer refused to pay Microsoft's extortion fee.

This is how mafias operate - they say "we own this city, we control these streets, so you have to pay us if you want to have a business here".
 
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That's why I didn't say it was.

But given the mostly non-overlapping nature of user bases (iPhone users don't shop for Android apps and vice versa), Apple had a monopoly on distribution of apps to a sizeable share of all smartphone users.
1. You can't really divide markets down until you make the point you want. Me saying my smart sprinkler company has a monopoly on apps which can run on my smart sprinkler is more obviously ludicrous.

2. Even a 100% monopoly within a legitimate space would not illegal on its own

3. DMA is not the EU declaring Apple is a monopoly or that they have abused their monopoly position. They created a whole new concept ("gatekeepers") to work around the fact they couldn't make that case.
 
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