Apple Again Changes EU App Store Rules and Fees to Comply With DMA

[watchthisspace]

Imagine going to Target and seeing them being forced to let Heinz advertise you can buy their ketchup at Walmart.

Does this example really hold when in the case of Heinz Ketchup, there is:

- Walmart
- Target
- Amazon
- Total Foods
- Woolworths
- Pak'n"Save
- 7-11
- Costco
- Coles
- King Soopers
- WinCo

etc,etc. But on the iPhone, there is only the Appstore? Food for thought (ha!)

 

[NotPr0n]

Imagine going to Target and seeing them being forced to let Heinz advertise you can buy their ketchup at Walmart.

Imagine not being able to go to Walmart because Target stores are the only ones allowed to exist in the world. Then imagine, after 16 years, Walmart stores being finally allowed to exist, but Heinz having to pay Target a commission if you buy their product at Walmart.

 

[bluecoast]

Except when developers block you from using your Apple account and require you to make an account on their platform that most likely is less secure and less privacy focused.

I stopped using Spotify when they started complaining about Apple. And am now - for years - a big fan of Apple Music. Also Apple pays artist a lot more for their streams than Spotify does.

I will not use Spotify or the Epic Games Store ever (again).

With all due respect, I think this is a terrible argument, as you’re essentially saying that the open web & website based e-commerce is all unsafe and apple are the only safe people to use.

Are you Tim Cook?

 

[MilaM]

Am I the only one who is too dense to understand the new terms?

Is the new fee schedule better for publishers now or worse?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Am I the only one who is too dense to understand the new terms?

Is the new fee schedule better for publishers now or worse?

They are basically the same but more convoluted

 

[surferfb]

Imagine not being able to go to Walmart because Target stores are the only ones allowed to exist in the world. Then imagine, after 16 years, Walmart stores being finally allowed to exist, but Heinz having to pay Target a commission if you buy their product at Walmart.

Imagine there’s a mall across the street with many different stores, including a Walmart you could have been shopping at all along but you don’t take advantage of it because “I don’t want to shop there” and then claim there’s only one store to shop at.

 

[MilaM]

They are basically the same but more convoluted

Thanks. So non-compliance through obscurity then? That would be a new approach 🙃.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Imagine there’s a mall across the street with many different stores, including a Walmart you could have been shopping at all along but you don’t take advantage of it because “I don’t want to shop there” and then claim there’s only one store to shop at.

Lol imagine you sold the goods on the first store, then The moment the consumer goes to the store across the street with the extra filters you must pay the first store a commission for a year because you told them where to buy filters.

 

[Ctrlos]

I think this forced opening up of iOS/iPadOS is inevitable. Governments have wanted less secure systems for a while now, and a growing number of people are demanding it too.

I dread the day it comes to fruition. I'll manage, I keep up with IT enough to stay safe online, but many of my friends and family are much more vulnerable, and given some of the people in their orbit, it's a foregone conclusion that I will eventually be unpicking malware out of their iPhones.

No one has managed to explain to me why I a closed system I like must, by law, be forced open. Saying that just because it's forced open doesn't mean I need to use the open bits misses the point entirely.

If we didn't have the advantages of an open system to compare it to, taken in isolation there would be nothing wrong with it. But there are plenty of people who put up with the limitations of iOS because they love the Mac so much.

We are at Id argue a dangerous crossroads in computing, where decades of corporate control has infantilised the general public into relying too much on them. Is the public ready for that much freedom? They might want to be Cypher and be plugged back into the Matrix!

If Apple were a government dictating what can and can't be done within their borders then they've morphed from a promised land to what we'd call them the ultimate totalitarian nanny state. It's easy to say people can just go to Android but extracting all your data is not that simple. Apple operate their barriers like Checkpoint Charlie.

Ultimately Apple could just implement the protections they have on the Mac to the iPhone and call it a day. The EU would be happy. Every user would be happy because they're already happy with the Mac. Instead they choose to bury things under a paranoid level of bureaucracy that says more about the way the company is being ran than any leaks about board chaos ever could. It's like they lost all confidence in their own product lines.

 

[wbeasley]

If we didn't have the advantages of an open system to compare it to, taken in isolation there would be nothing wrong with it. But there are plenty of people who put up with the limitations of iOS because they love the Mac so much.

We are at Id argue a dangerous crossroads in computing, where decades of corporate control has infantilised the general public into relying too much on them. Is the public ready for that much freedom? They might want to be Cypher and be plugged back into the Matrix!

If Apple were a government dictating what can and can't be done within their borders then they've morphed from a promised land to what we'd call them the ultimate totalitarian nanny state. It's easy to say people can just go to Android but extracting all your data is not that simple. Apple operate their barriers like Checkpoint Charlie.

Ultimately Apple could just implement the protections they have on the Mac to the iPhone and call it a day. The EU would be happy. Every user would be happy because they're already happy with the Mac. Instead they choose to bury things under a paranoid level of bureaucracy that says more about the way the company is being ran than any leaks about board chaos ever could. It's like they lost all confidence in their own product lines.

iOS devices were never MacOS devices.

The walled garden was designed specifically to be controlled.

Some seem to forget there was a time when iPhone had no AppStore.
It worked as a phone with installed apps only.

Anything else is a bonus to you and a revolution for app devs who created millions of apps and billions in revenue.

All without being open...

There's no loss of confidence. Customers still buy these "limited" devices at high prices in large numbers.
If the average person felt so hamstrung after 15 years they would have stopped buying Apple phones and gone to Android. Instead there is 10-14% leak to iOS from Android.

Andorid is fine. Many get smart phones because there are useable cheap Android devices available.
Apple offer various price points too but nowhere near as broad as Android.

I am still waiting to hear what app needs to be on iOS devices without Apple approval.
Only things anyone offers is non-mainstream things that would be better run on a laptop.

Mostly it's a smokescreen for installing pirated apps that wouldnt generate income for the dev.

Is there anywhere hard data on the EU external AppStores and how successful or not they are?
Did apps get cheaper using these alt stores?

Even on Android devices I own I've stuck to the PlayStore...

 

[surferfb]

If we didn't have the advantages of an open system to compare it to, taken in isolation there would be nothing wrong with it. But there are plenty of people who put up with the limitations of iOS because they love the Mac so much.

And there are so many more people who love iOS just the way it is. You’re projecting your desires and feelings onto a user base that has a billion more users than the Mac does.

We are at Id argue a dangerous crossroads in computing, where decades of corporate control has infantilised the general public into relying too much on them. Is the public ready for that much freedom? They might want to be Cypher and be plugged back into the Matrix!

Seriously?!? Dude, just by an Android and be happy.

If Apple were a government dictating what can and can't be done within their borders then they've morphed from a promised land to what we'd call them the ultimate totalitarian nanny state. It's easy to say people can just go to Android but extracting all your data is not that simple. Apple operate their barriers like Checkpoint Charlie.

Apple isn’t a government and you have choice. And yet, you’re supporting an actual government telling consumer like me “you can’t have a closed ecosystem like you prefer because we say so”. Talk about nanny state! Less choice is more choice! Big Brother would be proud of the EU.

Ultimately Apple could just implement the protections they have on the Mac to the iPhone and call it a day. The EU would be happy. Every user would be happy because they're already happy with the Mac. Instead they choose to bury things under a paranoid level of bureaucracy that says more about the way the company is being ran than any leaks about board chaos ever could. It's like they lost all confidence in their own product lines.

The protections on the Mac are not sufficient with iOS’ user base. iOS has over 10x the user base of the Mac, with exponentially more unsophisticated users. And have you looked at a “normal user’s” Mac? They’re a mess. Random processes running in the background draining battery, applications running from .dmg files, etc. Viruses still exist. They’re not as common because Apple has such a small user base (~100m people, compared to over a billion on iOS) but they still exist. And they’ll be more prevalent on iOS if the EU gets its way.

I firmly believe iOS’ current limitations are the greatest good for the greatest number of Apple’s users. Not the greatest good for technology enthusiasts posting on MacRumors, to be clear, but Apple’s user base is so much bigger than us.

 

[jlc1978]

Pff, why is Apple so stubborn. It's so simple:

App Store apps pay 15 or 30 %.
Outside of App Store: Nothing.
That's it.

Just like macOS.

And raise change fees for the developer's tools to be like EPIC's model of a % of revenue; so you can either use their tools or someone else's.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

iOS devices were never MacOS devices.

The walled garden was designed specifically to be controlled.

Some seem to forget there was a time when iPhone had no AppStore.
It worked as a phone with installed apps only.

Anything else is a bonus to you and a revolution for app devs who created millions of apps and billions in revenue.

All without being open...

There's no loss of confidence. Customers still buy these "limited" devices at high prices in large numbers.
If the average person felt so hamstrung after 15 years they would have stopped buying Apple phones and gone to Android. Instead there is 10-14% leak to iOS from Android.

Andorid is fine. Many get smart phones because there are useable cheap Android devices available.
Apple offer various price points too but nowhere near as broad as Android.

I am still waiting to hear what app needs to be on iOS devices without Apple approval.
Only things anyone offers is non-mainstream things that would be better run on a laptop.

Mostly it's a smokescreen for installing pirated apps that wouldnt generate income for the dev.

Is there anywhere hard data on the EU external AppStores and how successful or not they are?
Did apps get cheaper using these alt stores?

Even on Android devices I own I've stuck to the PlayStore...

1: objectionable content as defined in the store rules
2: adult content
3: system level adblockers
4: alternative browser engines
5: emulators with included ROM stores
5: developer tools
6: Network sniffing and packet inspection tools
7: specialized stores (example epic games adobe plugins)
8: apps with advanced scripting and JIT
9: MDM parental control apps
10: fully working VPNs ( especially when you’re in a nation that blocks VPNs

So that would be drug related apps where it’s legal, erotica oriented entertainment,
Ublock origin, Firefox Cexko browser with their existing plugin Libray etc etc

And regime critical apps because Apple removes them.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

iOS devices were never MacOS devices.

The walled garden was designed specifically to be controlled.

Some seem to forget there was a time when iPhone had no AppStore.
It worked as a phone with installed apps only.

Anything else is a bonus to you and a revolution for app devs who created millions of apps and billions in revenue.

All without being open...

There's no loss of confidence. Customers still buy these "limited" devices at high prices in large numbers.
If the average person felt so hamstrung after 15 years they would have stopped buying Apple phones and gone to Android. Instead there is 10-14% leak to iOS from Android.

Andorid is fine. Many get smart phones because there are useable cheap Android devices available.
Apple offer various price points too but nowhere near as broad as Android.

I am still waiting to hear what app needs to be on iOS devices without Apple approval.
Only things anyone offers is non-mainstream things that would be better run on a laptop.

Mostly it's a smokescreen for installing pirated apps that wouldnt generate income for the dev.

Is there anywhere hard data on the EU external AppStores and how successful or not they are?
Did apps get cheaper using these alt stores?

Even on Android devices I own I've stuck to the PlayStore...

Yes just about every game available on the epic store is cheaper than the AppStore equivalent. I have it and can literally just crosscheck them and see the price is less

Above I posted above the game Limbo as an example was cheaper 3,59$ vs 5.17$ ( converted from kr) a 30% difference

 

[surferfb]

1: objectionable content as defined in the store rules
2: adult content
3: system level adblockers
4: alternative browser engines
5: emulators with included ROM stores
5: developer tools
6: Network sniffing and packet inspection tools
7: specialized stores (example epic games adobe plugins)
8: apps with advanced scripting and JIT
9: MDM parental control apps
10: fully working VPNs ( especially when you’re in a nation that blocks VPNs

So that would be drug related apps where it’s legal, erotica oriented entertainment,
Ublock origin, Firefox Cexko browser with their existing plugin Libray etc etc

Almost all of these would open up iOS in such a way that the security model would be destroyed. This would absolutely be a net negative for iOS’ user base at large.

And regime critical apps because Apple removes them.

This is the strongest point in favor of sideloading and one I admittedly don’t have an answer to.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Imagine Target and Walmart being the only two stores..

In that world, the need to intervene on behalf of consumers and suppliers becomes abundantly clear.

No, they don't need to. The government needs to just stay out of everything. Better yet, just not exist.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Imagine not being able to go to Walmart because Target stores are the only ones allowed to exist in the world. Then imagine, after 16 years, Walmart stores being finally allowed to exist, but Heinz having to pay Target a commission if you buy their product at Walmart.

The difference is you can use ketchup anywhere. iOS apps only work on an entire platform invented by, and owned by one single company. That company should have 100% control over everything about it.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Also, Apple's solution here seems so complicated it's as if they're maliciously complying to make sure no one actually uses it... 🤣

Yet another play from the same playbook, unfortunately.

Am I the only one who is too dense to understand the new terms?

Is the new fee schedule better for publishers now or worse?

It's designed this way, by Apple, on purpose.
Very frustrating.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Almost all of these would open up iOS in such a way that the security model would be destroyed. This would absolutely be a net negative for iOS’ user base at large.


This is the strongest point in favor of sideloading and one I admittedly don’t have an answer to.

Well how do you download apps that is used to combat an authoritarian government without sideloading? You can’t use VPNs etc

Considering all of these things are possible within the security architecture, just contractually prevented to be distributed on the store( as he asked I gave a list)

1: objectionable content as defined in the store rules ( an app for vaping example)
2: adult content ( snufff novel game)
3: system level adblockers ( preventing add and app tracking system wide is a threat?)
4: alternative browser engines( how?)
5: emulators with included ROM stores( a legal store is a threat? No different than Netflix)

5: developer tools (potentially but allowing the use of Xcode?)
6: Network sniffing and packet inspection tools( it allows you to see what’s actually sent over your network through the ports

7: specialized stores (example epic games adobe plugins)
8: apps with advanced scripting and JIT( game emulation software works better)
9: MDM parental control apps( safer apps for kids?)
10: fully working VPNs ( especially when you’re in a nation that blocks VPNs

 

[turbineseaplane]

I think sideloading should be possible, but i strongly disagree with most of the things EU is doing.

This is one area I think most of us can agree.

Apple really have no case at all to be restricting an individual user from dropping whatever IPA they want on their own device and having it self sign with no expiration.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Same.

Any app that decides to use the AppStore to only steer you to their purchase option deserves contempt.
There won't be cheaper apps. That's nonsense. The devs want more of the payment.

The little app devs have been happily making money that would have been impossible in the old physical store only days. All the tools, the marketing, the buyer safety, the regular updates, the seamless payment and refunds, the reviews... the whole ecosystem worked for them.

Anyone who think Spotify is going to charge less for a sub through the app is kidding themselves.
Apple currently host the Spotify app and get nothing.
If you cant work out how to subscribe outside the app store perhaps technology is too complex for you. 😉
This isnt going to result in a huge increase in Spotify subscribers.
Most people have woken up to the fact they havent kept up with other streaming services on quality of audio, Airplay and keep raising prices (while paying music rights holders the smallest amount).

Spotify will now start complaining about the new fees to run the app...

Wait until it costs them more to have Apple host an app that costs them for each download... that they currently get for free 😉

Perhaps an even better example is Bloons TD6
99kr=10.46$( AppStore price)
59kr=6.23$ ( Epic store price)

 

[jlc1978]

Yet another play from the same playbook, unfortunately.

The ultimate play may simply be reduce the fee to a point competitive app stores can't make money, and only ones that have apps Apple won't carry can survive at a much higher fee than Apple.

Sideloading would solve a lot of issues as well, with Apple letting the user decide on the level of access to allow non-signed apps so you could go from never to have at everything on my device...

Perhaps an even better example is Bloons TD6
99kr=10.46$( AppStore price)
59kr=6.23$ ( Epic store price)

So the question for the developer is 'which store brings in more revenue?'

It will be interesting to see how long EPIC keeps its 0% fee for less than a million in revenue model if Apple would allow sideloading that costs developers nothing to implement.

That model means every app developer should at least put their app on EPIC's store since it costs them nothing.

 

[cicalinarrot]

Pff, why is Apple so stubborn. It's so simple:

App Store apps pay 15 or 30 %.
Outside of App Store: Nothing.
That's it.

Just like macOS.

EU: "You can't force all developers to give you money"
: "It's for the safety of users"
EU: "It has nothing to do with safety"
: "Ok, we'll get rid of safety requirements but we still want a lot of money"
EU: "You think this is a joke?"
: "Ok, a little less money"
EU: "Dude..."

By the time Apple actually complies and gives iPhone users who paid hundreds of dollars for their phones the ability to install what they want and pay how they want, they'll have squeezed so much money out of the market that no fine could possibly take back a relevant percentage of what has been extorted through the years.

 

[I7guy]

EU: "You can't force all developers to give you money"
: "It's for the safety of users"
EU: "It has nothing to do with safety"
: "Ok, we'll get rid of safety requirements but we still want a lot of money"
EU: "You think this is a joke?"
: "Ok, a little less money"
EU: "Dude..."

By the time Apple actually complies and gives iPhone users who paid hundreds of dollars for their phones the ability to install what they want and pay how they want, they'll have squeezed so much money out of the market that no fine could possibly take back a relevant percentage of what has been extorted through the years.

Extorted? From who? Do you believe people who use apples platform think apple extorts them? If so this is not being thought all the way through.

 

[surferfb]

Well how do you download apps that is used to combat an authoritarian government without sideloading? You can’t use VPNs etc

Considering all of these things are possible within the security architecture, just contractually prevented to be distributed on the store( as he asked I gave a list)

Just to go down your list:
1) and 2) I think Apple has every right from blocking apps it doesn't approve on from using its IP.
3) This would break Sandboxing. The adblocker app would need visibility into other apps' data in order to block ads. In addition, the app would need access to all network traffic and potentially the ability to modify said network traffic. That could totally be used by malicious actors or just sketchy ad brokers.
4) Each engine has its own codebase with its own bugs and vulnerabilities. Multiple engines increase the attack surface. they also may include JIT, which is a security risk (there's a reason Apple disbale's JIT on safari in Lockdown Mode).
5) See point 1. Additionally, emulators are used as piracy facilitation devices by 99.9% of users, which Apple shouldn't be obligated to support.
6) Developer tools, depending on how comprehensive they are, could allow bad actors to do things like bypass DRM restrictions, tamper with the sandbox, execute arbitrary code, etc.