Apple Again Hits Back at Nokia in Patent Dispute

[Erwin-Br]

The fact that not only are they going after the only real product that can really infringe a Nokia patent (iPhone). They are going after all Apple products, of which none of those have to do with the cellphone business Nokia is in. Also, not only that, but Nokia goes as far as to trying to prevent Apple from selling their non-cellphone related products (ie Macs) in the US.

That's trolling beyond any measure. I would not say anything if Nokia would go after the iPhone's GSM tech, but, no. They go after all of Apple (including the iPod shuffles which I am sure has no wireless capabilities).

They're just raising the stakes. Apple is doing the same thing. They call it strategy. (I call it childish, but that's my opinion).

Anyway, Nokia is not a patent troll, because patent trolls just exist for the sake of suing companies while Nokia actually uses its patents to create phones.

 

[SwingSwords]

Not exactly. They agree to license on a fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory basis. That's not the same as charging the same fee to all companies.

Sorry my mistake, meant f/rand terms. thanks for catching that.

 

[Tacitus]

Here is my understanding:
Nokia holds the patents for GSM, UMTS and WLAN standards.
Apple released iPhone in 2007 containing these technologies - without paying for the licence (as all other manufacturers have done in the past).

Should it be Apple that pays the licence? Surely if they buy ICs off the shelf, (from say Broadcom) containing GSM, UMTS etc, shouldn't they be the one paying the licence fees?

Or is Nokia trying to have two bites of the cherry.

 

[cmaier]

Should it be Apple that pays the licence? Surely if they buy ICs off the shelf, (from say Broadcom) containing GSM, UMTS etc, shouldn't they be the one paying the licence fees?

Or is Nokia trying to have two bites of the cherry.

By law, they can even sue the consumer who uses the phone and best buy for selling it to you. They can get many bites at the apple.

In some cases, component suppliers sign license agreements that include sublicense clauses, and then the component prices are higher. Sometimes, instead of a sublicense, there is a covenant not to sue customers, etc.

In this case, for whatever reason, broadcom's license doesn't include a sublicense for downstream customers.

 

[twilson]

What Nokia and Apple disagree on is whetever Nokia asked too high price for those licenses. Neither's court document offer enough information to say which one is right. We'll have to wait and see what comes up in court.

From my understanding Nokia has to offer "Fair Non-Discrimatory Licensing Fees" (i.e. the same price [or percentage deal] to everyone) and cannot require cross-patent licensing be part of any licensing deals.

I guess if Nokia is indeed treating Apple differently to their other licensees, then it will be Nokia that is in the ****.

Even so, Nokia will be in the **** as from a quick glance at the patents which Apple threw back as "Nokia were infringing" there are quite a few relating to data comms going back to the late 80's and early 90's.

 

[rikesh]

Plenty of people have given excerpts from both Apple's and Nokia's suits and both sides have shown that Nokia has asked for cross-licensing in all their requests for licensing the gsm patents to apple.

Doesn't really answer the question. Is there any evidence of Nokia asking for substantially higher fees or different terms from Apple (as opposed to other handset manufacturers?)

I think Nokia treats each licensing request individually, depending on:

1. The potential threat to Nokia's products

2. The company's current/predicted market performance in general

When Samsung (for example) made their initial request, Nokia probably judged that neither 1 nor 2 were amazingly spectacular.

So, the licensing agreement made then was probably 'fairer' (in Apple's eyes) than the one proposed by Nokia to Apple.

People who have commented that Nokia are 'desperate' and 'reacting to iPhone's success' are deluded. Legal battles like this take ages - and the likelihood is that Nokia and Apple have been discussing this long before the original iPhone release in 2007.

 

[psychjoe]

It's threads like these that makes me think that some Apple fans have a form of mental illness.

How can people seriously get worked at a company claiming it's patents have been infringed by Apple?

Jeesh, some of you are worse than Born Again Christians.

 

[cmaier]

Legal battles like this take ages - and the likelihood is that Nokia and Apple have been discussing this long before the original iPhone release in 2007.

I wouldn't be so sure. If Nokia had been making demands for too long Apple likely would have filed a declaratory judgment complaint in the venue of its choosing, in order to get home field advantage.

 

[Stella]

Link please - that 100% states this is absolute fact and not your own conclusions.

Well, I thought it was pretty well known that Nokia has been unfair with Apple when it comes to licensing Nokia's GSM technology from the 1980s which is used in most every phone in the world. .

I Jeesh, some of you are worse than Born Again Christians.

LOL!!!

 

[Yello Scorpion]

And what about the judge?

I wonder what phone does he use....
(Its either iPhone 3G or iPhone 3GS)

 

[LagunaSol]

Anyway, Nokia is not a patent troll, because patent trolls just exist for the sake of suing companies while Nokia actually uses its patents to create phones.

Or in this case, try to thwart a competitor with superior products who is putting the hammer down on your smartphone offerings (i.e. the most profitable products in your lineup) because you can't come up with any compelling products of your own.

 

[robbyx]

Nokia is losing marketshare. They aren't making products that people want to buy. They may have a case against Apple, and Apple may have a case against them. I don't know. But I do know that Nokia's products just aren't "cool" - and that's the real problem. And it won't be solved in court.

 

[Vmaatta]

Well, I thought it was pretty well known that Nokia has been unfair with Apple when it comes to licensing Nokia's GSM technology from the 1980s which is used in most every phone in the world. They have been wanting higher fees from Apple than anyone else and were also wanting access to Apple's intellectual property as part of the deal so that they can make a carbon copy clone of the iPhone without actually doing any real, innovative work.

Essentially Nokia's profts have been tumbling, in part at the expense of new-comer Apple, so they are trying to survive at this point. Pathetic. Remember when Nokia was cool? Everyone has them and that stupid ringtone. Not anymore! If anything though, they should go after the Asian manufacturing companies like Samsung and LG who probably cut into their profits even more. But they already pay fair-priced licensing fees, so they can't. Apple just wants the same terms all the other companies get, but Nokia is being a little you-know-what.

Nothing you said is based on fact...

 

[Vmaatta]

The fact that not only are they going after the only real product that can really infringe a Nokia patent (iPhone). They are going after all Apple products, of which none of those have to do with the cellphone business Nokia is in. Also, not only that, but Nokia goes as far as to trying to prevent Apple from selling their non-cellphone related products (ie Macs) in the US.

That's trolling beyond any measure. I would not say anything if Nokia would go after the iPhone's GSM tech, but, no. They go after all of Apple (including the iPod shuffles which I am sure has no wireless capabilities).

You know.. you really ought to find out what the case even is.

They're not going after all Apple products, it was virtually all. And "non-cellphone related products (ie Macs)" are among them. Well, where did you get the idea the patents were limited to cell phones ?

Not many even know that Nokia has done computers before. They didn't do very well I guess but now they're at it again with a netbook published this year. And they have all kinds of things going on in addition to phones. They're anything but patent trolls.

 

[Xavier]

It will be settled, someone will pay the other some money, and both products will still be in production and on the market.

 

[Vmaatta]

Apple is hardly seeking a "free ride". They agree they have to pay, but want to pay the same that every other licensee is paying.

Nokia seems to think that they can charge what they like to each licensee and require cross patent licensing deals, something they gave up the right to do when they included their own patents in the GSM Standard. This is same with any patented technology that goes into a standard.

Nokia is just pissed that Apple is all over their ass, stealing their customers away, plain and simple.

Care to point to a document stating the amounts Nokia has asked from Apple and the other companies.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Engadget has the best coverage and explanation of this:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/29/nokia-vs-apple-the-in-depth-analysis/

 

[LagunaSol]

Not many even know that Nokia has done computers before. They didn't do very well I guess but now they're at it again with a netbook published this year. And they have all kinds of things going on in addition to phones. They're anything but patent trolls.

Ah, so I assume Nokia is also suing other computer makers who certainly aren't paying Nokia licensing fees either?

 

[Vmaatta]

It's threads like these that makes me think that some Apple fans have a form of mental illness.

How can people seriously get worked at a company claiming it's patents have been infringed by Apple?

Jeesh, some of you are worse than Born Again Christians.

I salute you sir .

 

[LagunaSol]

I salute you sir .

And I'm sure the object of scorn being Finnish in this case has nothing to do with it.

 

[Vmaatta]

Nokia is losing marketshare. They aren't making products that people want to buy. They may have a case against Apple, and Apple may have a case against them. I don't know. But I do know that Nokia's products just aren't "cool" - and that's the real problem. And it won't be solved in court.

None of that has anything to do with the lawsuits, even if it were true. I'm an iPhone user but not everyone want's such a phone. That kind of phones just aren't "the market". And Nokia trying to get into US market is a running joke. But there's more than the US and nothing removes the fact that Nokia are still the leading mobile phone company.

 

[ChazUK]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.6; en-us; Archos5 Build/Donut) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Not many even know that Nokia has done computers before. They didn't do very well I guess but now they're at it again with a netbook published this year. And they have all kinds of things going on in addition to phones. They're anything but patent trolls.

Ah, so I assume Nokia is also suing other computer makers who certainly aren't paying Nokia licensing fees either?

Likewise with Apple and the other phone manufacturers who have infringed on their patents eh?

 

[MorphingDragon]

Ah, so I assume Nokia is also suing other computer makers who certainly aren't paying Nokia licensing fees either?

I'm inclined to believe that Nokia is asking something Apple deems unfair because their last major fight (Creative) ended up in a cross-licensing deal.

 

[Vmaatta]

Ah, so I assume Nokia is also suing other computer makers who certainly aren't paying Nokia licensing fees either?

I hope not because they probably don't have much going for them on that front . I'm just pointing out the computers as an example of something other than cell phones that Nokia has been involved in.

 

[Winni]

1. Declare Finland a terrorist state
2. Send in troops
3. Bomb them into stone age
4. "Rebuild" using US companies ONLY

Problem solved!!!!

Not really. This approach has never worked for the US. In the end, you guys are always surprised that not everybody wants to live in Disneyland, eat Donuts and be a worker-slave without rights for one Dollar per hour during daytime.